Staceybob Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 @Bec <3 You took the words right out of my mouth! To everyone that is saying about his successful rehabilitations, I'd like to point out that Cesar has been sued on several occassions by failing to rehabilitate dogs and actually make the situation worse. @Ravenwolf Don't believe that all the "2 weeks later" rehab videos are accurate descriptions of how the dog will be for the rest of it's life. Just because they're co-operating now, doesn't mean they wont go ballistic later. As for Positive Reinforcement, no one can be 100% positive, but negative doesn't mean you need to make physical contact with a dog either. Stacey xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Angel n Auroras Mum Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 I am thinking along the lines of this thread has run its course @valkyries would you agree?? before this causes any major disagreements I think its safe to say there are people for and people against. Not sure how many for each but look at what happened with that guy Jordan Shelley on the one show in the uk? He was boycotted by thousands/millions of people and now no longer works for the one show. And he was copying Cesars techniques! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 I am thinking along the lines of this thread has run its course @valkyries would you agree?? before this causes any major disagreements I think its safe to say there are people for and people against. Not sure how many for each but look at what happened with that guy Jordan Shelley on the one show in the uk? He was boycotted by thousands/millions of people and now no longer works for the one show. And he was copying Cesars techniques! dont be such a sap lou! this isnt an arguement, its a damn good discussion! No ones got personal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Angel n Auroras Mum Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 dont be such a sap lou! this isnt an arguement, its a damn good discussion! No ones got personal its like the offlead one, noone is going to agree with everyone! its just going to go on and on and on and on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Still, I challenge you to find an example of a dog Cesar worked with who isn't successfully rehabilitated when the owners stick to an exercise/discipline/affection model and use the techniques he's given them (aside from Cotton, the only example I could find!). There are many, milan has had multiple cases against him the dog has been made worse due to his techniques, those are ones which wont make it onto the tellybox The techniques only fail when done incorrectly, and if the owner is not capable of doing it themselves he either takes the dog to his home for total rehabilitation, or in some extreme cases he's recommended removing the dog from the situation and helped them find a more suitable dog. And yes, I'm sure there is no shortage of people who just pick up the techniques from the show, use them incorrectly and get themselves into all manner of trouble - but if we're hating on Cesar because people watch the show and think they're instant pros then we have to hate on Brad Pattison and Victoria Stilwell too. On some dogs the techniques he uses may work, but in many cases they wont. You can put all the 'dont try this at home' warnings you want on the show and people wont listen. IMO BP should be put down, or at least locked up! But anyone using the majority of VS's methods will not do any damage to their dogs even if they get it wrong, the same cant be said for milans or pattisons techniques Are you even watching the same show?! These are extreme cases. These dogs aren't blowing up and snapping just because Cesar has antagonized them - this is how those dogs are behaving and why he has been called! yes, they bait the dog with whatever the trigger is - dogs/humans/objects - because he needs to see what the reaction is and how bad it is so he can know to fix it. I've seen Victoria stand by and do nothing while a dog leapt and bit at a boy so that she could see the reaction. The result was the boy got bit in the face right on the show (though they didn't show it actually happen, just choking the dog as they dragged it outside by the collar afterward). To do any behaviour mod on a dog you must witness the issues 1st hand, regardless of the issues. Without doing so means you may miss the dog's signals, and misunderstand the behaviour for something else, which is exactly what milan does. A dog may be fear agressive or food agressive, but to milan, that dog is 'dominant', which is bull. VS always spends some time with each case just observing, and not getting involved, to get a better understanding of the issues and what's causing them. When she starts the training herself, she does NOT chuck the dog in the deep end and give them a chance to agress. She 1st works on changing the dogs mindset or teaching focus before putting the dog in a situation which would make it aggress, e.g. clicker training a focus command on a DA dog before taking the dog out and around others (which she always does in a controlled environment), then the dog focuses on her, rather than the other dog. And as for fear, I haven't seen a whole ton of fear reactions on the show. The dogs don't slink after him in fear of being beaten - there's a difference between fear and learning not to mess with someone. He's not over the top with affection - if there's one thing I learned from the show, it's that dogs enjoy just proximity and spending time together, and even at a distance they can still be relaxed but still paying attention to you without the need for constant contact and validation. He works with many dogs instilling more confidence in them, and you don't get that through abuse! Again, this shows that you are not reading the smaller signals given from the dogs, a dog doesnt have a slink away, yelp or cower to be scared, dogs have much more subtle body language than us humans, even just a small change in posture or diverting of the eyes, can be an indicator of fear or nervousness. His technique does involve getting the reaction and working the down from there, and I get how some people do not like the flooding technique and disagree with it from that stand point. I use the technique that you describe - keeping the reactions low key and gradually closing the distance to the trigger - with horses, where the response is usually a flight one and the difficulty is exacerbated by size. If you keep them calm and never let them escalate beyond a 3 or 4 while training it prevents 8 or 9 in new situations. That being said, there are situations where that is just not practical and flooding is the best option. It's usually ugly, and not a little traumatic, but sometimes they really need to be 'thrown into the deep end' so that they can see that the water really isn't all that deep! Sorry but i still fail to see how flooding can be preferable to the other techniques, just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 its like the offlead one, noone is going to agree with everyone! its just going to go on and on and on and on yea but thats the fun of it, its nice to have a good debate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 agree with bec and sid on this flooding a dog will not help i wouldnt put skyla in a situation she wasnt comfortable with - like at camp i knew she wouldnt be comfortable when we first arrived so she was muzzle - whilst she was walking and had calmed down n focusing on the walk - the muzzle was removed - i think she wore it one more time after that n that was when she was put in a car to the station as she was in a confined space with another dog the day after - n that was it! - she even slept in the same tent with 2 other dogs and was fine - she was more comfortable around male dogs so she spent most of the weekend playing or chilling around males - there were a few females she got on with so she was allowed to say hi to them - there were alot of females she didnt like so i didnt push her into behaving around them as it just would not have been fair on her or the other girls and probably would have made her worse around them then better - also we dont actually see what happens after CM 'trains' these dogs - u occasionally get a VT at the end of some episodes where the owners thank CM but its not at the end of every show - so we actually have no idea what happens after the show is over , its all edited for tv - n u never really see anything bad happening - its all postive (by this i mean u never see parts where he has failed - doesnt mean he doesnt fail) i think we all need to agree that whilst some of us may like him n others will dislike him - we actually have no idea what goes on behind screen or what happens after the show is over . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tams Teeko and Keeta Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 But this has made quite interesting reading! And like Bec said....every dog is different, every owner is different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valkyries Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 i won't be closing this just yet, i think ever one as been nice no name calling. it's a good debate for a change, lets keep it nice xxxxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Melsom Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 One thing that seems to have been forgotten, or not mentioned because no one knew, is that CM is NOT a dog Trainer and even he's admitted it. I think he's supposed to be a behaviourist which is something totally different. Does that mean he can't train? No, but at the same time, that doesn't mean he can, either. I personally don't like CM because I think he's too arrogant (come on, the "dog whisperer", as if he's the only person to have the clue on how to train dogs?). But then I've never watched his TV show (no TV ) and things like this video make me inclined not to watch it. It's not that he puts the dog into situations where the dog reacts, and it's not even that he uses force on the dogs. It's the extremes he goes to. You do NOT kick a dog in a sensative area (or anywhere actually). In all the stuff I've read here, no one who has said they've used tapping, nudging or whatever to their dog has it been mentioned they've done so in the gut/groin of their dog. It's always the butt or flank; totally different area than CM. I also don't like how he handled the bulldog by basically suffocating it. Not how you handle things, either. As others pointed out, this is TV which demands instant results AND doesn't show the process to get from A to B. These dogs might be last chance dogs, but he should still have to work with them over the course of more than one day. You don't train dogs for continual hours as the dogs wouldn't mentally last that long, nor would they really retain what they learned. Forcing it won't make a dog learn, either. That's why training is normally done in short spans. It might take a while but you're more likely to have a dog retain what you want them to. Even though I dislike CM, I do think some of what he does could have merit. At least he's not Brad Pattison. Now he's someone that could give CM lessons on how to be abusive not only to dogs but owners, too. I agree with everything except the BP part becasue I know him so I like how this turned into such a huge debate! its fun to watch both sides ^.^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 I agree with everything except the BP part becasue I know him so I like how this turned into such a huge debate! its fun to watch both sides ^.^ curious who is BP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Melsom Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 curious who is BP? Brad Pattison hes a dog trainer here in Canada he actually lives in Kelowna its like a 20 min drive from me hes got a show called At the end of my leash and Puppy SOS. Hes one of those tough love people hes all about the dog so hes not into treating people very nice if they are setting their dog up for failure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Brad Pattison hes a dog trainer here in Canada he actually lives in Kelowna its like a 20 min drive from me hes got a show called At the end of my leash and Puppy SOS. Hes one of those tough love people hes all about the dog so hes not into treating people very nice if they are setting their dog up for failure oh right ok - might have 2 google or youtube search i think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Melsom Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 oh right ok - might have 2 google or youtube search i think I think hes great and his methods worked for me but trainers always have haters so youll hear bad things about him too lol. If you go to Slice.ca you can watch his episodes on there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 I think hes great and his methods worked for me but trainers always have haters so youll hear bad things about him too lol. If you go to Slice.ca you can watch his episodes on there will do - thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyrayn Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 ok so have never heard of brad pattison so i decided to search .this is the first thing i found.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pALxsLg0-n0 after that i decided i didn't wanna see anymore...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 ok so have never heard of brad pattison so i decided to search .this is the first thing i found.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pALxsLg0-n0 after that i decided i didn't wanna see anymore...... remind to to watch these 2moz - dads on xbox n if i make him lag i gotta log off n youtube does that alot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon&Sophia Posted October 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 i won't be closing this just yet, i think ever one as been nice no name calling. it's a good debate for a change, lets keep it nice xxxxxx Glad to know i started a good debate this time Mind you, debates ive started in the past werent dog related (they were on the "off topic" section, but still. lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 ah Brad Patterson - the dog beater i dont care how intimidating he is, if he done this pALxsLg0-n0 to any of my dogs i would deck him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laine Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Don't get me wrong, at first - when I really didn't know what good dog training was - I actually thought BP was good and watched his show when I could. But then I started to see/hear things about him and the more I looked, the more I really didn't like his attitude or his personality and not just with the dogs, but with people, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Melsom Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Dont get me wrong hes not an angel nobody is and ive never seen him do that in person myself but in his methods he doesnt outline any of that. People hate him because he tells them what they are doing wrong and most people don't like that. Ive seen that video before and it doesnt impress me that he does that but im not going to watch one badly recorded youtube video and call him off altogether Ive read his books and gone to his lectures and his method of training works wonders and thats what gets me Im not telling you to watch more but maybe you should watch something other then a hater video lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 got any links? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Melsom Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 I just watch his show on Slice.ca if i missed it on tv i dont know where else it is :/ but il off to work so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 ah Brad Patterson - the dog beater i dont care how intimidating he is, if he done this pALxsLg0-n0 to any of my dogs i would deck him! Says it all!!! ( or at least that I can say here!! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 People hate him because he tells them what they are doing wrong and most people don't like that. Watching that video I'd suggest that's NOT why people hate him... There's no reason to talk to dog owners in the manner he does, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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