Bec Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Reading BP's website now, I'm really curious. How does he train a reliable recall with without using rewards? Obviously he's never had a dog that he's competed with in dog sports either... It's terrifying to think he trains other people to be dog trainers. Ugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laine Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Dont get me wrong hes not an angel nobody is and ive never seen him do that in person myself but in his methods he doesnt outline any of that. People hate him because he tells them what they are doing wrong and most people don't like that. Ive seen that video before and it doesnt impress me that he does that but im not going to watch one badly recorded youtube video and call him off altogether Ive read his books and gone to his lectures and his method of training works wonders and thats what gets me Im not telling you to watch more but maybe you should watch something other then a hater video lol Michelle - I don't hate him because he tells people what they're doing wrong. I hate HOW he tells people. And how condescending he is, and his childish temper tantrums. He threw a baby gate once and berated the owners for using one. Baby gates work though to keep dogs out of an area of a house they're not wanted in. There was NO reason to just throw them around and then go off on the people like they're idiots. As mentioned I used to watch the show and thought at one time it was great. Then I learned that there are much better ways, less punishing to the dog and to the owner. That video isn't the first BP I've seen of him negatively and the more I've seen the more I realize this man is a very angry person. The fact he treats both humans animals so degradingly, that's what gets m to dislike him the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenwolf Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 dont be such a sap lou! this isnt an arguement, its a damn good discussion! No ones got personal That's what your mom said. Couldn't resist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenwolf Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 ok so have never heard of brad pattison so i decided to search .this is the first thing i found.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pALxsLg0-n0 after that i decided i didn't wanna see anymore...... O.O I never liked that guy to begin with but holy shit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenwolf Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 There are many, milan has had multiple cases against him the dog has been made worse due to his techniques, those are ones which wont make it onto the tellybox The only lawsuit I found against Cesar was one in which a dog at his rehab centre was injured on the treadmill. Cesar wasn't even there at the time. But if you can direct me to any of these multiple cases I'd like to hear them. I don't hold blind loyalty to anyone - so if you can show me proof of just how bad he has failed I am eager to read it. ETA: Oh, and the one about firing someone on the show when he came back from rehab. On some dogs the techniques he uses may work, but in many cases they wont. You can put all the 'dont try this at home' warnings you want on the show and people wont listen. IMO BP should be put down, or at least locked up! But anyone using the majority of VS's methods will not do any damage to their dogs even if they get it wrong, the same cant be said for milans or pattisons techniques If Cesar should be banned because monkey-see monkey-do, there wouldn't be much point in watching TV, because nothing would be on! To do any behaviour mod on a dog you must witness the issues 1st hand, regardless of the issues. Without doing so means you may miss the dog's signals, and misunderstand the behaviour for something else, which is exactly what milan does. A dog may be fear agressive or food agressive, but to milan, that dog is 'dominant', which is bull. VS always spends some time with each case just observing, and not getting involved, to get a better understanding of the issues and what's causing them. When she starts the training herself, she does NOT chuck the dog in the deep end and give them a chance to agress. She 1st works on changing the dogs mindset or teaching focus before putting the dog in a situation which would make it aggress, e.g. clicker training a focus command on a DA dog before taking the dog out and around others (which she always does in a controlled environment), then the dog focuses on her, rather than the other dog. In the example I'm speaking of, Victoria already got her good look at the dog biting the boy. He was clearly terrified and traumatized. But the dog was allowed to stay in the room and continue after they had begun their discussions, and the dog was put on a leash and choked out as he was dragged through the house. Now it's okay in that situation? She did the whole tough 'send the dog away' thing (and through the magic of editing we don't even know if what we're seeing is chronological), but someone else still had to drag the dog out of the house. Cesar isn't always talking dominant/submissive - not all the episodes are with aggressive dogs or fearful dogs, and he doesn't always use flooding to solve the issues. He uses treats and positive reinforcement in some cases. That's what I like about him - he's always willing to try something different. Again, this shows that you are not reading the smaller signals given from the dogs, a dog doesnt have a slink away, yelp or cower to be scared, dogs have much more subtle body language than us humans, even just a small change in posture or diverting of the eyes, can be an indicator of fear or nervousness. I believe this would start to get into a different argument of submission vs. fear. If one doesn't subscribe to a hierarchical view, then it doesn't surprise me that one will see deference as fear. I don't see how any of us could really know how successful CM's 'rehabilitations' are without seeing the dogs ourselves outside of what is shown on a heavily edited TV program. It is true, and anyone who doesn't think that any of these kinds of shows (Victoria's included) are heavily edited is a fool. Since I can't exactly go and visit any of these people, I do the next best thing. In this day and age, very few hot button topics escape the world wide web. With how controversial he is, one would think that something substantial would crop up under an intense search at some point. I meet plenty of people who think the methods they are using are working, everyone has a different interpretation of 'results'. I would however suggest that if a dog has to be managed to the nth degree, behaviour modification really has not taken place. If you have to keep using behaviourial interrupters like a "tap" or a "tsst" or air blocking your dog or alpha rolling it then it's quite obvious these methods aren't achieving a result in the long term. I'm not sure where it's been said that the dogs have to be constantly managed using behavioural interrupters. They're tools in the box. Personally I quite like the vocal interruption. Here's why - it's something I've done for years with horses. More than a decade ago I found it quite interesting that my horse, who was Big Chief of our herd, had only to half-heartedly swipe his ears back to have the other horses trip over themselves to give him space. It made me wish that humans had some kind of indicator that we could use with the horses to express our displeasure before moving on to corrections. So I opted for a vocal correction and adopted a snake hiss, which my horses rapidly learned was my signal of displeasure. If they come into my space, I need only hiss and they back away, so I have no need to wave my arms or physically try to push them back. It wasn't until after seeing Cesar's show and his 'Ssshht!' technique that it even occurred to me to use it with the dogs. So now they get hissed at when they're doing something I don't like. So far, I'm pretty pleased. Your words are going to make me pay attention to how frequently I use it though - I'm rather interested to see if I micro-manage without realizing it. As much as it's fun to defend Cesar from haters, I don't think his methods are the be all and end all. I only work with my own dogs or my family's dogs (or friends when they ask me to), and much of what I do was learned many years ago, and through a woman I know who works as a dog trainer, not only doing courses but also rehabilitating dogs for a local shelter. I have learned valuable stuff from her, but also learned where the gap is when you try to strictly train and strictly use positive reinforcement (heh, she also hates Cesar Milan to the point where she and some of her other colleagues at the training centre actually paid to go see him just so they could heckle him - they were kicked out). But in closing: I enjoy watching the show, I don't see abuse in his methods, and until proven otherwise I don't doubt his effectiveness. 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Michelle Melsom Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Dont get me wrong id knock him in the face if he ever hit my dog but ive met him and seen him IN PERSON at lectures and he is not as bad as he seems. To be fair most people are idiots Ive trained Marius without treats and I have not had a problem so it works for me so yeah Im not going to debate about it thats just the way I feel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Angel n Auroras Mum Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 after watching that video im in shock Where the hell does he get the idea that its ok to treat someone elses dog like that?? Its downright disgusting its not even right to treat your own dog like that never mind someone elses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosemary Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 This has been a great thread I am not for or against CM - but never, ever, take anything I see on programs like his, or other similar programs, as gospel - too much is left out or moved around because of time constraints. The same can be said for all these "I hate CM" videos doing the rounds I enjoy watching the odd program and take what I want from them and leave the rest - just as I do with training threads on this forum I certainly don't hate the man, I have never met him or seen him work, so who am I to judge him. I don't take anything at face value, in either TV, video or even the printed media - there is too much room for manipulation, by those trying to get their point across or make a buck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Ive trained Marius without treats and I have not had a problem so it works for me so yeah Im not going to debate about it thats just the way I feel I'm really interested in this MM, I am not trying to pick on you, certainly using food rewards are not the be all and end all of training. What methods do you use to reward your dog and teach him new behaviours and how reliable is his behaviour under distractions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Melsom Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 I'm really interested in this MM, I am not trying to pick on you, certainly using food rewards are not the be all and end all of training. What methods do you use to reward your dog and teach him new behaviours and how reliable is his behaviour under distractions? Right now hes rewarded with a chest massage and so far he knows sit, lay, stay, stop, go to bed, go laydown, leave it, lets go, come and for when hes outside and im half awake or in a hurry to do something he knows go pee and go poop and when i ask him if hes done he will come inside. He also knows the difference between the leash being attached to his collar for walking and no pulling and when hes wearing a harness where hes allowed to pull. It could be becasue hes really smart and not that im good at training at all rofl because before this I did use treats with all the other dogs I use to have. Right now because he is only 6 months he is good around everything but other dogs when we are at the dog park I can get him to sit and sometimes come but thats about it even if I had a treat for him he wouldnt care he just loves other dogs. Im trying to work on it now by getting him to do more things around the distractions. With working I havnt had much time to do it yet but since I got the bad news of only being able to make $500 a month ill have way more time hahaha -sigh- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tams Teeko and Keeta Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Watching that video I'd suggest that's NOT why people hate him... There's no reason to talk to dog owners in the manner he does, either. Totally agree. First words out of his mouth made him sound like a total tool regardless of what happened next to the poor dog! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Melsom Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Totally agree. First words out of his mouth made him sound like a total tool regardless of what happened next to the poor dog! Yeah but you didnt hear the first half of it either. People pay for these classes and they know how he is so its their own problem if hes rude to them imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tams Teeko and Keeta Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Yeah but you didnt hear the first half of it either. People pay for these classes and they know how he is so its their own problem if hes rude to them imo Lol yeh I guess they go into it with their eyes open so their own fault for working with a total tool I suppose. More fool them! Have no opinion on his training. Not seen it! But cant abide bad manners or speaking to people like that. manners cost nothing but they earn you a hell of a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Melsom Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Lol yeh I guess they go into it with their eyes open so their own fault for working with a total tool I suppose. More fool them! Have no opinion on his training. Not seen it! But cant abide bad manners or speaking to people like that. manners cost nothing but they earn you a hell of a lot. Its like when I went to his book signing it was like nobody read it becasue this lady had her dog sitting on her lap and she was giving it treats and using a harness and and extending leash and just all of the things he was against. Ofc he asked her why her dog was on her lap and shes like " cuz hes scared" and brad said " your making his scared by coddling him put him on the ground please" but later on during his lecture she picked up her dog again So people like that I think should be yelled at sometimes first time your nice second time its like WTF where are your ears. If he saw me at the dog park he would yell at me for sure Marius is on a harness and an extending leash its not fenced and its near a busy road...its the only way he can play without getting hit by a car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tams Teeko and Keeta Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Its like when I went to his book signing it was like nobody read it becasue this lady had her dog sitting on her lap and she was giving it treats and using a harness and and extending leash and just all of the things he was against. Ofc he asked her why her dog was on her lap and shes like " cuz hes scared" and brad said " your making his scared by coddling him put him on the ground please" but later on during his lecture she picked up her dog again So people like that I think should be yelled at sometimes first time your nice second time its like WTF where are your ears. If he saw me at the dog park he would yell at me for sure Marius is on a harness and an extending leash its not fenced and its near a busy road...its the only way he can play without getting hit by a car Lol why take your dog if you aren't going to listen. Yeps some people definitely need a good yelling at! Still, I wouldn't go to trainer with his attitude (cancelled classes here with Teeko because the woman was rude to me on the phone). I think it creates a bad atmosphere and causes the owner to feel anxious or tense which will transfer straight to their dog. But...thats only my opinion and I don't know the man....maybe he's lovely and spends his weekends doing charity and chatting to old ladies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Melsom Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Lol why take your dog if you aren't going to listen. Yeps some people definitely need a good yelling at! Still, I wouldn't go to trainer with his attitude (cancelled classes here with Teeko because the woman was rude to me on the phone). I think it creates a bad atmosphere and causes the owner to feel anxious or tense which will transfer straight to their dog. But...thats only my opinion and I don't know the man....maybe he's lovely and spends his weekends doing charity and chatting to old ladies! Lol I doubt he does ahahaha and I agree with you but some people like the "tough love" and hes usually not rude unless you are epic failing. I wish I could yell at people at work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tams Teeko and Keeta Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Lol I doubt he does ahahaha and I agree with you but some people like the "tough love" and hes usually not rude unless you are epic failing. I wish I could yell at people at work The trick is to be super nice but painfully honest and blunt Go on, I dare ya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Melsom Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 The trick is to be super nice but painfully honest and blunt Go on, I dare ya! I would so get fired lol but after working 8 years with the public I tell ya...It would be brutal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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