Im sorry, but this is absolutley diabolical. Words cannot express!

[Kissu & Aara]

Victoria is also called in when the owners are about to or already have given up on their dogs, and she's able to do it without "tapping" sensitive areas or even so much as bopping a dog on the nose.

While I know that not every trainer does not and should not all have the same methods, I don't like or agree with most of his.

[James]

Cesar has some methods I do like, and some I would never use. What you have to remember, in addition to the fact that with the TV station in control of the time he has to work with a given dog, is that many of these dogs are likely to be on their "last chance". These owners generally seem to be complete novices (to be kind to them), and have no clue about how dogs think or how to train them, and have allowed the dogs to get completely out of control, often to the point where the dog is dangerous to them and to others around them...

Couldn't agree more, especially the part about the novice owners.

Postive Reinforcement is of course the most ideal training method, we can all agree on that, however some postive reinforcement, redirection etc training methods, do require some "know-how" and basic understanding of dog psychology and we have to remember the majority of owners are not like most of us here that really do our research and their dogs are just their companions, their friends, which there is nothing wrong with that. But then their dogs get out of hand because they refuse to discipline their dogs, which in essence is somewhat easier to carry out to people that don't know otherwise, because in their minds its "cruel" but it is not. Their refusal to discipline their dogs results in a dog that has no boundaries and we end up with these dire situations.

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

Couldn't agree more, especially the part about the novice owners.

Postive Reinforcement is of course the most ideal training method, we can all agree on that, however some postive reinforcement, redirection etc training methods, do require some "know-how" and basic understanding of dog psychology and we have to remember the majority of owners are not like most of us here that really do our research and their dogs are just their companions, their friends, which there is nothing wrong with that. But then their dogs get out of hand because they refuse to discipline their dogs, which in essence is somewhat easier to carry out to people that don't know otherwise, because in their minds its "cruel" but it is not. Their refusal to discipline their dogs results in a dog that has no boundaries and we end up with these dire situations.

and to add to that which I surprisingly agree with (lol) is whatever the breed of dog you are getting it should be researched well. Which most people DONT do.

[Simon&Sophia]

I suppose this debate rests largely on where individual people draw the line between acceptable negative reinforcement and needlessness.

Ive at no point said that i dont believe in negative reinforcement, so the quip about "pot, kettle, black" cant really apply to myself. Although, im sure there are those it it would... maybe not even on this thread, but im sure there will be people to which the statement holds true.

To close my side of this argument, all i will say is that i think that the method/s used in this video are a step too far. The strike me as a kop out. I do not think that they are acts of negative reinforcement to a reasonable degree.

Cesar Milan may well use other methods, but for me; they do not negate how i feel about this particular method shown in the video.

Yes, it may be a video meant to show him in a bad light. It may be antagonistic, to cause a "witch hunt". I still feel the same way regardless. It is still him, and he is still, in my opinion; unneccesarily striking a dog.

One Love

[mike_p]

unneccesarily striking a dog.

For people like me the description seems a massive exageration. The level of physicality in normal dog play is far greater than the little nudges CM makes. I've actually found that dogs that are wary of people respond much better to robust handling than to being touched tentatively.

[Ravenwolf]

For people like me the description seems a massive exageration. The level of physicality in normal dog play is far greater than the little nudges CM makes. I've actually found that dogs that are wary of people respond much better to robust handling than to being touched tentatively.

This.

I still have vivid memories of this being stressed in one of the first dog training classes I ever attended. We had our dogs lying down and were told to pet them, but to make sure to rub enough that the skin actually moved under your hand. This was to encourage authoritative touch and show the tentative people attending that they would not hurt their dogs by doing so - in fact, many of them prefer a good rub to light stroking. It wasn't to say "you must always touch your dog this way" but to let everyone know that they aren't that breakable (medium/large dogs anyway). I remember it so well because I was genuinely startled by how many people the instructors actually had to show how to pet they way they were talking about!

[Simon&Sophia]

For people like me the description seems a massive exageration. The level of physicality in normal dog play is far greater than the little nudges CM makes. I've actually found that dogs that are wary of people respond much better to robust handling than to being touched tentatively.

Yeeah, everyones opinion differs. Its where he kicks them thats the worst part about it for me. In addition, if its dogs playing; the dog knows its play. If a dog owner does this... does the dog see it in a light hearted and playful way? What level of respect does the owner achieve and what is the reason for this "respect"?

[James]

For people like me the description seems a massive exageration. The level of physicality in normal dog play is far greater than the little nudges CM makes. I've actually found that dogs that are wary of people respond much better to robust handling than to being touched tentatively.

Absolutley this.

I've seen dogs play and one has literally slammed the other dog on the floor, with a loud thud, it didn't bother the dog at all. Also stepping on a dogs foot by accident causes them to yelp, while what CM does RARELY makes any of the dogs yelp in pain at all.

To close, for me, I believe that variety in training methods is the path to follow, a mixture of positive and negative reinforcement, depending on what you are training and what the situation calls for, the same with the level of physical touch, depends on the situation and the incident at hand, I have followed tips from Trainers right here on the forum, methods picked up from CM and from my own personal research on the internet / books and so far it appears to be working, I get alot of comments on how well behaved she is. The next step in Kita's training is tackling her food aggression, she shows absolutley ZERO aggression to any human when taking her food or if food falls between a human and her, the issue is with other Dogs, if they try to get in on her food or if food falls between her and the other dog, its a hard one to tackle with out putting her and another dog in the situation, anyway thats for another day ^_^.

[Ravenwolf]

Yeeah, everyones opinion differs. Its where he kicks them thats the worst part about it for me. In addition, if its dogs playing; the dog knows its play. If a dog owner does this... does the dog see it in a light hearted and playful way? What level of respect does the owner achieve and what is the reason for this "respect"?

It's all about control. There is a distinct difference between the hard touch - where the dog is indeed thumped, but there is no follow through and momentum ceases the moment contact is made - and a kick, where there is follow through and the intent is to cause pain. People do have control over their feet!

He thumps where he does because it guarantees a reaction. As I mentioned with Wyatt, the lightest touch on the haunch sends him going "holy shit! Yeah, back to you! I'm listening now," while with Scout he is oblivious to touch; even a solid thump fails to get his attention. If he really fixates on something, the successful redirect is actually a hand "bite" to his flank. It's more sensitive, so it takes less pressure/force/effort to get a reaction than the same thing on solid muscle or bone. To use a foot isn't as effective, because it's broader and would require more force than I'm willing to use. But I also know my dog and know that based on his personality and level of fixation that he isn't in an extreme state where the redirect is going to be aggressive.

Again, in these clips you aren't seeing the full story. The kick alone looks much worse than it is when you don't have context. I think it does have to be a case of agree to disagree on training methods, because where you see abuse I see appropriate use of physical correction.

[Simon&Sophia]

It's all about control. There is a distinct difference between the hard touch - where the dog is indeed thumped, but there is no follow through and momentum ceases the moment contact is made - and a kick, where there is follow through and the intent is to cause pain. People do have control over their feet!

He thumps where he does because it guarantees a reaction. As I mentioned with Wyatt, the lightest touch on the haunch sends him going "holy shit! Yeah, back to you! I'm listening now," while with Scout he is oblivious to touch; even a solid thump fails to get his attention. If he really fixates on something, the successful redirect is actually a hand "bite" to his flank. It's more sensitive, so it takes less pressure/force/effort to get a reaction than the same thing on solid muscle or bone. To use a foot isn't as effective, because it's broader and would require more force than I'm willing to use. But I also know my dog and know that based on his personality and level of fixation that he isn't in an extreme state where the redirect is going to be aggressive.

Again, in these clips you aren't seeing the full story. The kick alone looks much worse than it is when you don't have context. I think it does have to be a case of agree to disagree on training methods, because where you see abuse I see appropriate use of physical correction.

agree to disagree is a fair outcome

I am just yet to come across any situation with any of mine, or my relatives or friends dogs in which the dogs attention cannot be achieved without hitting, however hard. Other than the one exception of a situation where a dog is properly attacking.

But yes. Agree to disagree

[Sid_Wolf]

I know you are , we've spoke about it before, though your statement is absolutley ridiculous , "floods with Chokes?" eh? not seen that in all the episodes i have watched ^_^.

I like CM and the show, but I'm more debating the use of negative reinforcement and how some people most definitley over-react to when they see or hear of it being used and those people that come and Slate CM for his use of negative reinforcement, but their use of negative reinforcement is absolutley fine.... its the situation of pot kettle black

not floods with chokes hun, milan floods the dog (knowingly takes it WAYYYY beyond its comfort zone purely to get a reaction out of it) then kicks it in the groin and chokes it till it 'submits'.

[Sid_Wolf]

I know you are , we've spoke about it before, though your statement is absolutley ridiculous , "floods with Chokes?" eh? not seen that in all the episodes i have watched ^_^.

I like CM and the show, but I'm more debating the use of negative reinforcement and how some people most definitley over-react to when they see or hear of it being used and those people that come and Slate CM for his use of negative reinforcement, but their use of negative reinforcement is absolutley fine.... its the situation of pot kettle black

not floods with chokes hun, milan floods the dog (knowingly takes it WAYYYY beyond its comfort zone purely to get a reaction out of it) then kicks it in the groin and chokes it till it 'submits'.

[James]

not floods with chokes hun, milan floods the dog (knowingly takes it WAYYYY beyond its comfort zone purely to get a reaction out of it) then kicks it in the groin and chokes it till it 'submits'.

Sid, Sorry, as much as your my friend your talking crap and I know I can say that because you're my friend

of all the episodes i've watched I recall 1 episode of him using a choke chain.

anyway get your butt on FB i need to talk to you about tomorrow!

[Sid_Wolf]

Sid, Sorry, as much as your my friend your talking crap and I know I can say that because you're my friend

of all the episodes i've watched I recall 1 episode of him using a choke chain.

anyway get your butt on FB i need to talk to you about tomorrow!

what do you think he's doing when he suspends them in the air by the lead? he (iirc) says he is trying to gain control, maybe so, but he is also blocking off the airway. And actually, 9/10 he uses a slip lead, with works the same as a choke chain

[James]

what do you think he's doing when he suspends them in the air by the lead? he (iirc) says he is trying to gain control, maybe so, but he is also blocking off the airway. And actually, 9/10 he uses a slip lead, with works the same as a choke chain

It is indeed to gain control, but He tends to only use this method to gain control of seriously out of control aggressive dogs, e.g 2 seriously big aggressive pitbulls (last episode I watched).

the way you described it, makes it sounds like he uses chokes at every opputunity.

[Sid_Wolf]

they are only out of control due to him flooding him! lol flooding a dog is IMO stupid at best and bloody dangerous with the wrong dogs. And achieves nothing, you should work the dog up to its limits, not chuck him in the deep end then make him 'submit'

[James]

they are only out of control due to him flooding him! lol flooding a dog is IMO stupid at best and bloody dangerous with the wrong dogs. And achieves nothing, you should work the dog up to its limits, not chuck him in the deep end then make him 'submit'

again you present the assumption he is flooding them with chokes, which is simply not the case, and its not about submission its about controlling the situation and its usually a result of the dog getting out of control by seeing another dog or something, again from the episode i lasted watched the pitbulls got extremely aggressive towards a dog in a garden.

[Michelle Melsom]

I NEVER liked Millan he seems like one of those people who are out to make as much money as they can off of something they did not have to go to school for he is a TOOL. There are plenty of dog trainers who deal with "difficult dogs" that DO NOT use noise or hitting them in any form as correcting them. As far as the end part of the video with all the text is rubbish imo My aunt likes him becasue he is alot nicer to the owners then the dog trainer I like but the one I like doesnt use abuse as a form of correction.

[Sid_Wolf]

again you present the assumption he is flooding them with chokes, which is simply not the case, and its not about submission its about controlling the situation and its usually a result of the dog getting out of control by seeing another dog or something, again from the episode i lasted watched the pitbulls got extremely aggressive towards a dog in a garden.

NO not flooding WITH chokes. Flooding means basically chucking the dog in the deep end. I.E if a dog is agressive, milan takes the dog close enough for the dog to react, which is just reinforcing the reaction, then he chokes it, pins it, kicks it in the groin until it gives in. the issue isnt solved, the dog is still DA, but has learnt not to show it around Milan.

The proper way to train a reactive dog, is to work it up in stages, find out the distance that the dog start to react, say 50ft, have the dog just outside that limit, so it is calm, and reward the dog for not reacting, then slowly move closer, and again reward the dog if it doesnt react. Slowly the dog learns that when it is around the thing it initially reacted to, that good things happen.

You stick a DA dog in a situation with another dog it isnt comfortable with, then do what CM does when it reacts, isnt going to teach the dog anything at all, except that there is a reason to react, because bad things DO happen. Most agressive dogs arent simply agressive, they are usually fear agressive, so doing what CM does is only reinforcing that fear.

Does that make sense?

[Tams Teeko and Keeta]

I think this is a difficult one to judge. THe video has been edited to make CM look like a total A## by whoever for whatever reason. But then the programs shown on TV are edited to make CM look like the second coming! I don't think any two people will ever agree on training methods for their dog. I know for certain that there are people here who think i go down the wrong road with my dog (not with regards to negative reinforcement but simply relating to the methods I choose to use.) But I have a very healthy, happy and extremely well behaved husky on my hands so am I wrong? Are they wrong? Who knows?

That said...CM is the bain of my life! He is too obsessed with the alpha approach and he does not go far enough to convey that these methods should not be used at home. MY OH will often quote CM or talk about his methods or obsess about the need for a dominant and submissive relationship....which I don't agree with. Dogs should know who is boss to a certain extent but I think it should be born out of mutual respect and understanding rather than pummelling home the fact that I will always be alpha....you will always be below me.

Animalistic corrections can sometimes look bad. I remember working with baby monkeys and having to correct them by catching hold of their tail and giving it a little tug because that is what 'mum' would do. But I am yet to see a dog walking about in trainers to give another dog a swift kick.

I can't condemn or condone CM. It's impossible to know how the video has been edited. And someone clever enough can certainly make anyone look bad. I won't join a witch hunt...each to their owmn and if these owners are letting their dogs be abused by a trainer then sadly these dogs are already screwed with owners like that! But it definitely has a potential to put a serious dent in his glowing reputation.

[James]

NO not flooding WITH chokes. Flooding means basically chucking the dog in the deep end. I.E if a dog is agressive, milan takes the dog close enough for the dog to react, which is just reinforcing the reaction, then he chokes it, pins it, kicks it in the groin until it gives in. the issue isnt solved, the dog is still DA, but has learnt not to show it around Milan.

The proper way to train a reactive dog, is to work it up in stages, find out the distance that the dog start to react, say 50ft, have the dog just outside that limit, so it is calm, and reward the dog for not reacting, then slowly move closer, and again reward the dog if it doesnt react. Slowly the dog learns that when it is around the thing it initially reacted to, that good things happen.

You stick a DA dog in a situation with another dog it isnt comfortable with, then do what CM does when it reacts, isnt going to teach the dog anything at all, except that there is a reason to react, because bad things DO happen. Most agressive dogs arent simply agressive, they are usually fear agressive, so doing what CM does is only reinforcing that fear.

Does that make sense?

It does.

But if it doesn't work, why does he get results? because he clearly does....

Also I think there are things which you can only train by being in the situation... e.g if a dog is off leash and comes over to your dog its not going to stop at 50ft, 30 ft, 15, ft etc, its going to come straigght up to the dog, He also has to train the dogs and Owners for these situations.

Furthermore to use this method of positive reinforcement owners HAVE to have a good fundemental understanding of Dog Body language and behavior i.e recognising subtle hints of aggression or fear, which alot just simply won't.

[Sid_Wolf]

if your dog is agressive to offlead dogs, you dont take it to a place where it is likely to come across offlead dogs, and you use a muzzle. If you set the dog up to fail, its gunna fail.

He gets results through fear. But you leave that dog alone in a situation its uncomfortable with and eventually it will snap, just not around milan or the owner, because its learnt to fear what will happen if it does.

Milan has no concept of dog body language, at all, or if he does he pays not attention to the blatent signals the dog is given, if he did he would know not to push the dog any further.

basically all Milans doing is what we tell people all the time, DO NOT punish the dog for growling, because all it does is removes the growl, not the feelings behind it.

As owners we have a responsibility towards our dogs to make sure they are comfortable with the situations we put them in, milan is going against this and, if anything, reinforcing the fact that they shouldnt be comfortable in the situations that he, and then the owner, will put them in.

[James]

Again It appears you are making assumptions.

Basically what you are saying is the Dog behaves properly through fear? it goes from being horribly aggressive to dogs, to running and playing with them because it is scared of its owner or CM? your assumption is based on a predisposed opinion of him and not through visual evidence.

Furthere more, you can try and avoid other off lead dogs all you want, but the chances are you will come across one anyway, point in case again the same recent episode I watched a dog got out on the garden and came over to the aggressive dogs, its happened numerous times people post about it alot here, as you know theres many places in ipswich where chavs have there staffs off-lead on the streets, so its not always possible to avoid off-lead dogs unless you don't take them out.

Dogs will not always be comfortable in situations we put them in, the goal is to make them comfortable, to remove the irrational fear that they have. Case in point here as you well know Kita got scared of runnning on the bike, did I stop doing this because the situation made her nervous? nope. and just over a week later of exposing her to this uncomfortable situation...she is now comfortable with it.

[Sid_Wolf]

Again It appears you are making assumptions.

Basically what you are saying is the Dog behaves properly through fear? it goes from being horribly aggressive to dogs, to running and playing with them because it is scared of its owner or CM? your assumption is based on a predisposed opinion of him and not through visual evidence.

Furthere more, you can try and avoid other off lead dogs all you want, but the chances are you will come across one anyway, point in case again the same recent episode I watched a dog got out on the garden and came over to the aggressive dogs, its happened numerous times people post about it alot here, as you know theres many places in ipswich where chavs have there staffs off-lead on the streets, so its not always possible to avoid off-lead dogs unless you don't take them out.

Dogs will not always be comfortable in situations we put them in, the goal is to make them comfortable, to remove the irrational fear that they have. Case in point here as you well know Kita got scared of runnning on the bike, did I stop doing this because the situation made her nervous? nope. and just over a week later of exposing her to this uncomfortable situation...she is now comfortable with it.

yes but with Kita you didnt pin her down to make her run did you? I know how you train, in the correct way, building the dog up to the eventual product, you didnt smack her until she ran, did you? Therefore she gained confidence over time. You cant relate that to dog agression, she was scared because my guys were faster (HA!) and she couldnt keep up, we done the right thing, stopped the team ASAP and then you ran her solo at a pace she was comfortable with. Had we continuted to run her with my (faster, just gunna repeat that once more LMAO ) team, she would have bailed, freaked out, and we may well have ruined her for life.

I dont have a predisposed opinion of him, i used to worship him, i used his techniques on Kira, before I studied canine body language and learnt how to read what she was trying to tell me. She was scared, I done her no favours at all by following his methods. Why do you think I can generally stop grey before a situation escalates (because believe me, there are many times it can at every trip to the park), because I can read him, I know his signals. By removing him from the situation calmly and giving him a controlled time out, or redirecting his attention elsewhere, it gives him a chance to calm down.

No you cant avoid offlead dogs all the time, but you can do everything within your power to minimise the chances (walks in non popular areas, late night walks) and the risks to other dogs (muzzle). What you dont do is take the dog to a dog park and then pin the dog to the ground whenever it reacts

[James]

yes but with Kita you didnt pin her down to make her run did you? I know how you train, in the correct way, building the dog up to the eventual product, you didnt smack her until she ran, did you? Therefore she gained confidence over time. You cant relate that to dog agression, she was scared because my guys were faster (HA!) and she couldnt keep up, we done the right thing, stopped the team ASAP and then you ran her solo at a pace she was comfortable with. Had we continuted to run her with my (faster, just gunna repeat that once more LMAO ) team, she would have bailed, freaked out, and we may well have ruined her for life.

I dont have a predisposed opinion of him, i used to worship him, i used his techniques on Kira, before I studied canine body language and learnt how to read what she was trying to tell me. She was scared, I done her no favours at all by following his methods. Why do you think I can generally stop grey before a situation escalates (because believe me, there are many times it can at every trip to the park), because I can read him, I know his signals. By removing him from the situation calmly and giving him a controlled time out, or redirecting his attention elsewhere, it gives him a chance to calm down.

No you cant avoid offlead dogs all the time, but you can do everything within your power to minimise the chances (walks in non popular areas, late night walks) and the risks to other dogs (muzzle). What you dont do is take the dog to a dog park and then pin the dog to the ground whenever it reacts

haha firstly Kita is incredibly fast when she wants to be, i'll go out on a limb here and say faster than your guys!

No we did stop, but she wasn't comfortable going out alone at first either but i still put her in that situation and got positive results.

You ignored the question of how can a horrible aggressive dog go from being horribly aggressive to playing and running about with other dogs if it is just scared of its owner or CM.

another assumption you are making is that the dog becomes fearful of CM, which I do not believe is the case, he isn't hurting the dogs, they don't yelp or cower, it does appear to be as he puts it, snapping them out of that fixation.

Yes you can read Grey, because you know Grey extremely well, also you know you Dog psychology and body language and have done your research and as im being nice because you are smart! , alot of owners have not and are not this, they don't know Dogs body language or psychology so simply cannot read the signs before it escalates.

In the end if the dog is uncomfortable for a few weeks or a months in certain situations but is rehabilitated for life, surely it is worth it?