Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Simon&Sophia

Im sorry, but this is absolutley diabolical. Words cannot express!

Recommended Posts

Let's take this argument to an extreme. You're a guy, and you marry this widow who has a 13 year old daughter. You make a good income, support them well. Have a great house, not a mansion, but nice. You get them everything they need and some of the extras to go along with it. So you decide to have a go with your wifes daughter. Nothing serious, just a little slap and tickle.

Needless to say, momma sees red - but what's the problem, you really didn't hurt the girl and anyway it's all taken out of context anyway 'cause you've shown them you're a good guy.

Since we're espousing it as OPINION, that's mine. Sure it's out of context, sure it makes him look bad - maybe there are dogs for whom gentle training won't work - I haven't found one yet, BTW, just sometimes it takes longer! What he did, in those pictures, goes against every grain of my feelings about training. You can read back through here and see where I've done things I shouldn't have, but I've learned that there are better ways. Are there times a dog needs to be restrained, yep - but you don't restrain it by lifting it off the ground and choking it to death - there are better ways.

Mods, feel free to edit as you desire. //al

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i agree with his calm assertive energy and body language ect but thats probs the ONLY thing i like about CM

i much prefer victoria stilwell - u can get just as good a result as positive reinforcement and positive training

also i think the - do not try this at home part needs to be put across ALOT more then it is , what if sum1 with an aggressive dog tries his methods n gets attacked - it will be the dog that suffers in the end

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im all about positive energies etc... anyone that ive spoken to in depth about my views on such things will know that. But to me, he totally negates any positivity with his negativity through kicking/tapping/nudging/tickling... whatever you want to call it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so hands up all those ..

who ??

no matter how soft who would kick their kids to get them to learn...

so why kick a dog ..???

soft or hard ..a kick is a kick .. and IMO its wrong.

i still say there is no need for this sort of action to be able to have dogs that are trained.. i have watched plenty of his programs from start to finish and read a couple of his books.. and allthough some of his methods are good.. there is this sort that is not...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im all about positive energies etc... anyone that ive spoken to in depth about my views on such things will know that. But to me, he totally negates any positivity with his negativity through kicking/tapping/nudging/tickling... whatever you want to call it

im looking 4ward to chatting to you at the meet up :) lol

back to topic - there was a 'trainer' me and lou went to when we took the dogs to agility who called himself a dog whisperer - well tbh he was crap - he jabbed the dogs in the sides - which me and lou were not comfortable about - i think b4 just going up2 sum1s dog and jabbing it he should talk to us about his methods first and get to know the dogs n hear their stories first - he also put a slip lead on storm without lous permission and panicked him - most dogs on CMs show fight the slip leads he puts on them - n its because he just shoves it on n expects the dogs to be ok with it - he doesnt train the dog to get used to the lead - which imo he should do - yes ive seen episodes where hes gotten dogs used to muzzles b4 - if he can do that why cant he do it with a lead - not that he should have 2 VS doesnt use them n if she does use any tools she desensitses the dogs first - i just think theres better ways then his

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I gurantee some people he that are saying CM is bad for training dogs this way have and will "tap" or "smack" their dogs snouts.

the Perception is wrong is only in our minds, its not hurting the dog.

it seems people have it ingrained that negative reinforcement, is similar to abuse....it isn't no where near.

further more, you have to remember CM has a very short time frame to work in, he has to make progress in less than a day.....sometimes positive reinforcement training takes far longer than this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I gurantee some people he that are saying CM is bad for training dogs this way have and will "tap" or "smack" their dogs snouts.

the Perception is wrong is only in our minds, its not hurting the dog.

it seems people have it ingrained that negative reinforcement, is similar to abuse....it isn't no where near.

further more, you have to remember CM has a very short time frame to work in, he has to make progress in less than a day.....sometimes positive reinforcement training takes far longer than this.

im pretty sure he goes back more then once n doesnt try n train a dog in a day - for any trainer this would prove impossible - dont forget he also sometimes takes dogs away if he feels he needs to (VS usually trains over the corse of a week and then give the owners time to keep it up with her still watching and then goes back to help out some more - im sure CM probably has a similar method and takes longer then a day to train - specially some of the really aggressive cases he has - positive reinforcement may take a while but so will ANY kind of training)

dont get me wrong tho i do agree with some of his methods - i just think sometimes there are better ways

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

further more, you have to remember CM has a very short time frame to work in, he has to make progress in less than a day.....sometimes positive reinforcement training takes far longer than this.

And here is the crux of this issue for me, and it shows on wider levels than in this situation. Instant results are a must. Especially because he wont get a pay cheque otherwise. If the dog was the motivation for this program, time frame wouldnt be on anyones mind. They could condense months and months of training and footage into an hours worth of air time. But he has found a way in which he can act quickly, but what lasting effect will this method genuinely have? Far less than if he followed many other popular methods, and more widely respected methods. Short sharp shock doesnt work in any situation if you ask me.

Im going to go out on a limb here and really put my opinion forward. THE best way to train a dog is to use the mindset perspective. Put yourself in the dogs mindset, to understand the behaviour. Then change the mindset. The change in mindset will change the behaviour. If you approach training your dog, questioning what he/she is thinking, solutions should present themselves to you quite easily. It also helps to develop a relationship with your dog, rather than a dominance. (and when i sayy dominance, i mean bully / bullied)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And here is the crux of this issue for me, and it shows on wider levels than in this situation. Instant results are a must. Especially because he wont get a pay cheque otherwise. If the dog was the motivation for this program, time frame wouldnt be on anyones mind. They could condense months and months of training and footage into an hours worth of air time. But he has found a way in which he can act quickly, but what lasting effect will this method genuinely have? Far less than if he followed many other popular methods, and more widely respected methods. Short sharp shock doesnt work in any situation if you ask me.

Im going to go out on a limb here and really put my opinion forward. THE best way to train a dog is to use the mindset perspective. Put yourself in the dogs mindset, to understand the behaviour. Then change the mindset. The change in mindset will change the behaviour. If you approach training your dog, questioning what he/she is thinking, solutions should present themselves to you quite easily. It also helps to develop a relationship with your dog, rather than a dominance. (and when i sayy dominance, i mean bully / bullied)

I love how you instantly assume because the way he trains he obviously is doing it for the money.....spare me, Can I ask how much of CM have you actually watched before making these assumptions? I have watched CM for the past 6 months, many episodes, I'm sorry but he clearly has a great fondness for animals best friend, the time constraint, I would imagine is due to the fact he is all over the US, and why is negative reinforcement such a BAD thing in peoples minds? It teaches a lesson, a pretty fast one at that, My mum used to give me a swift smack on the behind if I did something bad, Was I bullied? of course I wasn't, because you use some negative reinforcement does not make you a bully and it would be ludicrous to think other wise. Also the "negative reinforcement" is only a small part of what he does. He does use alot of positive reinforcement aswell.

A short sharp shock has worked for me in several situations, sometimes its exactly what they need in my opinion, so you can tackle the behavior then and there.

I will put my hands up and say I have used negative reinforcement on Kita when I believe it has been called for (e.g attacking my mums dog), I have the strongest bond ever with Kita, I am dominant over her in the sense that she respects me and listens to me and again to insinuate you can't have dominance and a strong close relationship with your dog is again ludicrous.

Kita's best friend is Grey ( @Sid_Wolf ) he is very dominant over her, but they have an extremely strong bond.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love how you instantly assume because the way he trains he obviously is doing it for the money.....spare me, Can I ask how much of CM have you actually watched before making these assumptions? I have watched CM for the past 6 months, many episodes, I'm sorry but he clearly has a great fondness for animals best friend, the time constraint, I would imagine is due to the fact he is all over the US, and why is negative reinforcement such a BAD thing in peoples minds? It teaches a lesson, a pretty fast one at that, My mum used to give me a swift smack on the behind if I did something bad, Was I bullied? of course I wasn't, because you use some negative reinforcement does not make you a bully and it would be ludicrous to think other wise. Also the "negative reinforcement" is only a small part of what he does. He does use alot of positive reinforcement aswell.

A short sharp shock has worked for me in several situations, sometimes its exactly what they need in my opinion, so you can tackle the behavior then and there.

I will put my hands up and say I have used negative reinforcement on Kita when I believe it has been called for (e.g attacking my mums dog), I have the strongest bond ever with Kita, I am dominant over her in the sense that she respects me and listens to me and again to insinuate you can't have dominance and a strong close relationship with your dog is again ludicrous.

Kita's best friend is Grey ( @Sid_Wolf ) he is very dominant over her, but they have an extremely strong bond.

Oh, youve got me all wrong my friend. The television company is in it for the money. Cesar Milan may very well be in it for the dogs, but the television company need results to make money to pay him and to pay for the program, otherwise there'd be no program. If you would like to debate that point, then it should be in a different thread. The whole of television exists to make money to be fair.

I would say that the first time that i watched Cesar Milan was in his second series. Im pretty sure i watched episodes from the third and fourth series and i have watched all of series seven recently, trying to find a special that he did on wolf hybrids. [here's the link if youre interested: http://www.megavideo.com/?v=37GBRZBL].

I surely don't document the frequency at which i watch any particular television program, indeed i do not care for television much at all. But that is neither here, nor there. I wouldn't take the fact that you have watched more of his programs than the next person as a valid justification for a particular method he uses to whatever ratio he uses another. While you may have watched 100 episodes where he only uses this kick once or twice, im pretty sure ive also seen hundreds of dog owners and dog trainers and dog handlers that have never used it once. If you would like to pick out whichever other methods he uses, im very sure that they may well be intelligible, and good to use. All i am saying is that I feel that kicking the dog, negates the reasons behind any other work he tries to do. One example being, that he acts alot on calmness and relaxation. But the dog wont be calm and relaxed because it feels positivity. It will be because it is in fear of negativity, i.e, the kicking or whatever it may be. Why is it that you think alot of dogs become scared of raised voices if theyre shouted at and hit? Because the two go together. If the dog hears shouting, he behaves to avoid being hit (which is what he thinks will be the eventuality). So in Cesars "nudging" method, the dog will stop himself from behaving in a particular way to avoid the nudge. Not because he knows that he will gain something positive from the situation if he behaves correctly, or even because he now knows that this is the right way to behave. It will be to avoid being hit. Would you like to have a relationship in which your girlfriend (or boyfriend, depending on your orientation), is nice to you to prevent you from hitting them, or because they know that you love them and you will treat them well in return? Its insulting to a dogs intelligence to think that theyre not smart enough to either remember, or figure out the difference between acting for reward, rather than acting to avoid punishment.

You decribe the use of negative reinforcement on a different level to what Cesar Milan often uses this "nudging" method. If a dog is attacking, the rules change. I can not disagree with that fact. But, he uses it in situations that other methods could so easily prevail. Such as barking at other dogs whilst walking past. There are so many different techniques you could use. Hitting the dog just seems like a kop out to me. If you would like to talk about the other methods he uses, then present them to me. If you could present them in a fashion that justifies/outweighs/allows me to overlook this particular method; then i shall rightly apologise for my misinformed opinion. I would ask that you try this before misreading some of what i type, while misinterpreting other parts; jumping to the conclusion that my opinion is "ludicrous" or responding in a way that quite frankly, comes across to me as being quite bigoted. For i never said that you can not have a strong relationship coupled with dominance. I am saying that you can not have as strong a relationship, whilst being in a domineering/bully role.I am trying to keep this debate on point and completely non personal. So please dont use arrogant language such as "....spare me", or condemn my contribution to the discussion as "ludicrous". I shall remain respectful to you, so would ask that you do so to me.

One Love :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i have to say @James , im on the hater side ;) any person who floods dogs then chokes them until they are 'rehabilitated' is a tw@t IMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TBH I don't think the dog he kicks looks that extreme or "red zone" as CM would call it, I've definitely seen worse - none of which needed to be airblocked or kicked in order for behaviour modification to take place,

The problem with using methods like air blocking or kicking/tapping the dog or whatever you call it is that it may stop the dog displaying the behaviour in that moment, but what is it doing to change the way the dog thinks or the dog's emotional response to whatever is triggering the behaviour? Behaviour modification is not really taking place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TBH I don't think the dog he kicks looks that extreme or "red zone" as CM would call it, I've definitely seen worse - none of which needed to be airblocked or kicked in order for behaviour modification to take place,

The problem with using methods like air blocking or kicking/tapping the dog or whatever you call it is that it may stop the dog displaying the behaviour in that moment, but what is it doing to change the way the dog thinks or the dog's emotional response to whatever is triggering the behaviour? Behaviour modification is not really taking place.

Very good input +1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this dog choking referring to the bulldog?

Whichever dogs he uses a leather lead, and loops it through its own handle, placing what is then effectively a noose, around the neck of the dog. He does it to the husky looking dog at like 2mins 14 ish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so hands up all those ..

who ??

no matter how soft who would kick their kids to get them to learn...

so why kick a dog ..???

soft or hard ..a kick is a kick .. and IMO its wrong.

i still say there is no need for this sort of action to be able to have dogs that are trained.. i have watched plenty of his programs from start to finish and read a couple of his books.. and allthough some of his methods are good.. there is this sort that is not...

:P have you seen kids these days?? i'd say what most of them NEED is a good swift kick in the pants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:P have you seen kids these days?? i'd say what most of them NEED is a good swift kick in the pants.

They may, but you'll still end up in front of a judge if you do any damage (even to their pride!) doing it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:P have you seen kids these days?? i'd say what most of them NEED is a good swift kick in the pants.

well i have never done anything like that with my kids and they have grown up fantastic and im very proud of them and have never stepped over the line...

i was punished as a kid by my step father far beyond reasonable chastisement to the point of brutal.. and i strongly disagree with any kind of physical force .. to train or correct wrong doin to kids or any kind of animal..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love how many people refer to it as a "light tap". Please, allow me to demonstrate it on you then, because if it was a light tap, half of their butts wouldn't swing round from it and half of them wouldn't yelp.

I have watched several episodes of Cesar and I mean loads and loads, I used to watch it on a daily basis, and no matter how much he bangs on about the positive things like energy which I think is really good for giving owners confidence, I just can't get over how much negative things he uses.

I've seen him use prong collars, E-collars and kick dogs completely inappropriately, the way he has lifted dogs on prong collars before has extremely upset me.

Stacey xxx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've gave my dogs a 'light tap' on the arse before, and they dont react anything like the dogs ceaser does it to.

He's not tapping on the bum where it wouldnt bother the dog, he's doing it in the groin, which is a sensitive area

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i have to say @James , im on the hater side ;) any person who floods dogs then chokes them until they are 'rehabilitated' is a tw@t IMO

I know you are :P, we've spoke about it before, though your statement is absolutley ridiculous :P, "floods with Chokes?" eh? not seen that in all the episodes i have watched ^_^.

I like CM and the show, but I'm more debating the use of negative reinforcement and how some people most definitley over-react to when they see or hear of it being used and those people that come and Slate CM for his use of negative reinforcement, but their use of negative reinforcement is absolutley fine.... its the situation of pot kettle black :lolman:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well I will admit I have tapped Storm on the bum before, just when hes acting a total dweeb on the lead! BUT he just sits down, he would never attack me like that. While I dont agree with CM or his methods AT ALL, I do have to question the way the dog does attack theres obviously some underlying issues there.

And Nix is right the "trainer" we saw was a total D*** but I will admit we have had to resort to using the poking on the in-laws dog George who is collie. This is because something drastic needs doing as he thinks he is alpha in their house and he has bitten my kids several times, while I would normally disagree with this methods we feel we have no choice or my kids could be hurt more seriously next time. TBH if it was my dog it would have been rehomed a long long time ago I hate the blasted thing. (anyone who knows me well knows I love dogs and this is a huge statement to come from me)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

( I promised myself I was going to stay out of this thread!) I think part of the argument here is that there's negative reinforcement and then there's abuse. As I wrote in my thread about Avalanche, he decided to do some counter surfing and from me he got "NO!" Absolute direct negative reinforcement. No rewards, no distraction - I want it understood that this behaviour will not be tolerated. I intentionally left a dog food can on the counter last night, it's still there this morning - without any type of getting hit, kicked - he got the idea.

I tried to draw the analogy earlier that if this were a child there would be no question of much of his technique being abusive - I don't see that it makes a lot of difference when it's a dog, it's still abusive.

I've watched a few of his episodes - on youtube - and while he does have some decent techniques I, personally, find more of his methods abusive. And again, imho, when any of the method is abusive there isn't a whole lot to be said for those that aren't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cesar has some methods I do like, and some I would never use. What you have to remember, in addition to the fact that with the TV station in control of the time he has to work with a given dog, is that many of these dogs are likely to be on their "last chance". These owners generally seem to be complete novices (to be kind to them), and have no clue about how dogs think or how to train them, and have allowed the dogs to get completely out of control, often to the point where the dog is dangerous to them and to others around them...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This video is a compilation of redirecting touches of varying degrees across SEVEN SEASONS. That's over 7 years and 175 episodes with an average of 3 families assisted per episode, so that's 525 situations of one or more dogs, and this video is the worst you got??

While I don't necessarily agree with everything that Cesar does, I respect him highly for what he does and believe that the vast majority of his advice is sound and his methods applicable to the situation at hand. He never comes in and does the exact same thing with every dog, but is always willing to find out what will best help the dog in that particular situation. People also forget that the dogs on Cesar's show are dogs that people have given up on. They are mostly dogs that have been through the ringer of local trainers and still no solution was found. Cesar promotes and encourages the use of local trainers and he pretty well deals exclusively with extreme cases.

Wherever back there said witch hunt is right. Disagree with his methods all you like, but I have never seen abuse on the show, and I challenge anyone to find ONE account of a dog he's assisted having been traumatized, gotten worse or just plain stayed the same. I've searched exhaustively and have found ONE account, a woman with a small white dog who bites a lot of people. She freely admitted that she could not adhere to the recommendations Cesar made and therefore could not stop her dog from biting people. So she had her dog's canine teeth cut off level with the incisors (a procedure called 'disarming'). The dog continues to be allowed to bite people, but it's no big deal any more since he can't do any significant damage any more. How is THAT the better solution?

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jul/25/home/hm-krieger25

The whole point of the touch is to redirect the dog's attention. When they're excited and fixated on something else and you touch, they react with all the energy they were barely containing and preparing to unleash on their target. They leap and spin, they yelp, they redirect that bite toward the touch. The husky (everyone's favourite example to attack CM over) was fixated and prepared to lunge at the other dog. Ceasar touched to redirect and the dog reacted by releasing on him. If you watch the whole episode that's what the dog was doing to his owners, which is why they called Cesar. If he couldn't get to the other dog, he would turn on his owner to try to get free. When the dog leapt at Cesar, yes, he "choked" it out by keeping tension on the leash to keep from being bitten. I've never seen him violently use his "noose" or choke a dog to the point where they can't breathe.

And all dogs react differently. When Wyatt is fixated on something, or even just ignoring me and I touch him - and I mean TOUCH softly - to redirect (whether with hand or foot) he spins around sharply like I just hauled off and booted him in the haunches. If someone were just watching the dog's reaction they'd swear up and down I just kicked him, when it was literally just a touch with my foot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.