Forum Rules

[jmscott]

So, I keep re-reading the forum rules and can't find in any way shape or form, a ban on posting about ethical, responsible breeders, or educational websites. I would like to know if there is any reason a simple rule like one I use on my own Facebook Group, cannot be applied here as well.

"3) Dogs for sale may ONLY be advertised if the poster is already a contributor to the group. People who join just so they can post puppy pictures in search of buyers will be deleted & banned. Rescues are welcome to post freely provided posts are not in violation of rule #1.

 

4) All breeders presenting dogs for sale must provide a written contract & guarantee of working ability & health registration to all buyers, in addition to health test results. If you can't stand behind your puppies, you have no business selling them as working animals & we will not provide you a platform to peddle your unproven, unwarrantied puppies. Parents should be tested and registered prior to breeding.

 

5) All rescues or rehomes must also be from spitz-type parentage. "It has blue eyes" or "the foster home says is looks like a husky" is not sufficient to present it as a post relavant to this group..

 

6) All sales contacts, either of bred, rescued, or rehomed dogs, made through this group are at the discretion of the individuals involved. This group is not responsible for any agreements made between individuals who meet on this forum."

 

If this is not a change that can be made, then shouldn't it be discouraged to promote rescues? There are just as many underhanded, irresponsible rescues as there are breeders, in fact there is one less than 10 minutes from us that breeds the dogs that it "rescues" so that there are more puppies to adopt out. 

 

Please consider allowing ethical breeders to be promoted here!

[HuskyMom09]

Responsible, Ethical breeders certainly have their place, especially where the continuation of health, quality, and functionality of the breed we love is concerned.  Of course, I always support reputable rescue organizations and suggest to anyone who is looking for a companion animal to check out local rescues first.  If, however, the individual is looking for more, wanting a puppy perhaps from health proven stock, interesting in conformation showing, interested in starting performance sports , or even if the thought of future breeding has crossed the mind with their companion then of course lines of health and proven workability have their place.  Not to mention by contacting these responsible breeders, many offer mentoring!

 

There are far too many posts all over various forums the 'I want to breed' posts and seeing Siberians that have obvious faults, lacking breed type, no health testing, and no proof of functionality.  Mentoring, educational websites, and suggesting of ethical breeders should be welcomed not banned.

[Marc]

I can actually answer this quite simple. If you search for husky owners on google, you will find the description of our website to be

 

"A fun, friendly and informative forum, built by husky owners, for husky owners. Not a company, not a breeding site" (and a bit more, but thats the important bit). So as it says, thats not what we are about. We are about husky owners meeting each other and enjoying each others company. Nothing more, nothing less. Its the reason we exist, and to be honest the reason why we are the largest.

 

 

However that said, in order to answer your question in full I will go through the rule examples you provided above.

 

"3) Dogs for sale may ONLY be advertised if the poster is already a contributor to the group. People who join just so they can post puppy pictures in search of buyers will be deleted & banned. Rescues are welcome to post freely provided posts are not in violation of rule #1.

 

We do not allow the sale of dogs on our site whatsoever. In fact furthermore we will not allow anything that can even be remotely seen as a sale such as rescue fees etc. The second part, why on earth would I not want people to be able to come on here as a new owner and post pictures of their puppy? Thats exactly what we are about. New people, new husky owners, with new dogs wanting to meet other husky owners.

 

4) All breeders presenting dogs for sale must provide a written contract & guarantee of working ability & health registration to all buyers, in addition to health test results. If you can't stand behind your puppies, you have no business selling them as working animals & we will not provide you a platform to peddle your unproven, unwarrantied puppies. Parents should be tested and registered prior to breeding.

 

We do not allow the selling of animals on our site at all. I cannot understand why we would want this rule. As I said, we're not about breeding etc. We're a place for people to meet each other.

 

5) All rescues or rehomes must also be from spitz-type parentage. "It has blue eyes" or "the foster home says is looks like a husky" is not sufficient to present it as a post relavant to this group..

 

If you think this would even get near our rules even if we did allow fees etc you would be sadly mistaken. We have many owners on here of husky cross breeds, malamutes, or even people who just simply like the site and dont have huskies but have other dogs (one has a chiwhawa for example). Why on earth should any dog whatsoever miss the opportunity of being rehomed by someone based on its breed???

 

 

6) All sales contacts, either of bred, rescued, or rehomed dogs, made through this group are at the discretion of the individuals involved. This group is not responsible for any agreements made between individuals who meet on this forum."

 

Can understand why you have this on yours, however is not needed on here as we do not have any fees for anything allowed.

 

 

 

If this is not a change that can be made, then shouldn't it be discouraged to promote rescues? There are just as many underhanded, irresponsible rescues as there are breeders, in fact there is one less than 10 minutes from us that breeds the dogs that it "rescues" so that there are more puppies to adopt out.

 

While we do not discourage the rescuing of any animal, we actually do not allow direct links to any of the rescues as they charge a fee for the animals.

 

Please consider allowing ethical breeders to be promoted here!

 

For all the reasons above, we will not be considering this. And for another reason personally, go and look in the rehome section of our forum. I would rather point someone there than to a breeder, whether they be ethical or otherwise.

 

 

Hope thats answered your question.

[Marc]

Responsible, Ethical breeders certainly have their place, especially where the continuation of health, quality, and functionality of the breed we love is concerned.  Of course, I always support reputable rescue organizations and suggest to anyone who is looking for a companion animal to check out local rescues first.  If, however, the individual is looking for more, wanting a puppy perhaps from health proven stock, interesting in conformation showing, interested in starting performance sports , or even if the thought of future breeding has crossed the mind with their companion then of course lines of health and proven workability have their place.  Not to mention by contacting these responsible breeders, many offer mentoring!

 

There are far too many posts all over various forums the 'I want to breed' posts and seeing Siberians that have obvious faults, lacking breed type, no health testing, and no proof of functionality.  Mentoring, educational websites, and suggesting of ethical breeders should be welcomed not banned.

 

Whilst I agree, they should be welcomed in a place which is set up for this purpose and for the purpose of people finding animals. This is not the purpose of our site and never has been. In fact in was originally set up so that Sarah could go out and meet a few others with huskies to go on walks. We DO NOT ban breeders of any sort from our site and never have. We simply do not allow the posting of animals for sale.

[Marc]

May I ask a question of you Jaimie, just on another part of this discussion. How would I know a breeder who is ethical purely through the forum? Should I go and inspect these places? Maybe check out all the papers of other litters they have had? Check who they have rehomed their animals to and whether they were health checked? Maybe get the papers sent to me in order to show that they were all health checked? How would I know? How would you know?

[Andy]

How do we verify who is a reputable breeder / rescue

We can't without lots of time and resources that we don't have.

therefore we have the current blanket ban on all.

Husky owners has a mission statement which includes the words

"Not a breeder site"

It's Marc and Sarahs Choice.

Their site

their rules.

[jmscott]

The list of rules are used on facebook was just an example. I copied them, as is, from the Facebook Page, which is for Siberian Huskies. This doesn't have to be a "breeder site". It was only a suggestion to allow links to sites like Karen Yeargains website, or HTPuppies or sites that DO go through the effort to check OFA and CERF or have scans of health certs emailed to them.

 

I am fine with "Their site, their rules", it is the lack of support for breeders that bothers me. 

[HuskyMom09]

When you have a site like this you inevitably get the "I want to breed my __________ because I can" posts.  Most of these people are under educated as pertaining to not just the breed but to the responsibility they are taking on.  Yet we are supposed to look past that part of the post and focus on "aww cute puppy", tying hands that could point these people in a more positive direction, to find the education they need to find, find the mentoring they so desperately need, that without they end up adding to the problem that create such a need for rescue organizations.  No one said make this a breeder site, we simply ask you quit stifling breeder education- because by allowing the "I want to breed" posts you are supporting the undereducated Backyard Breeder mentality.

 

Researching breeders is pretty simple everything, health certifications, pedigrees, breeding history, number of litters produced, quality, functions they do with their dogs- it's all online you just need to know where to look.  THAT is part of the problem, no one will allow such education to happen apparently. The answer you provided as to why this cannot be a more open site just shows me how much education on responsible breeding practices is out there and it is very disappointing.

[Marc]

The list of rules are used on facebook was just an example. This doesn't have to be a "breeder site". It was only a suggestion to allow links to sites like Karen Yeargains website, or HTPuppies or sites that DO go through the effort to check OFA and CERF or have scans of health certs emailed to them.

 

I am fine with "Their site, their rules", it is the lack of support for breeders that bothers me. 

 

We also have a lack of support for people with type 1 diabetes . We are not a diabetes site either.

 

Suggestion has been noted, but the answer is no it will not be added. I have no idea who either of those websites are and if I did I would not know if they are ethical breeders without going through all of the things I mentioned above. You havent answer the question of how I would know? Im not asking what they check, Im asking how I would check? I dont know these people, I havent got the time to be checking every breeder. Not to mention the fact that I do not know the laws of every country on the planet, nor every organisation.

[Marc]

  No one said make this a breeder site, we simply ask you quit stifling breeder education- because by allowing the "I want to breed" posts you are supporting the undereducated Backyard Breeder mentality.

 

So let me get this right. You cannot ask someone questions on here when they ask that question, and you cannot give them advice personally (as you already have done once only today) on why they should not breed?

 

I AM NOT stifling breeder education. If this site did not exist there would be less education about huskies, not more so the statement is completely ridiculous.

[Marc]

And if you want to state that I "support undereducated backyard breeder mentality" you will find yourself very unwelcome, very quickly.... We have done more for the husky community in helping dogs than most people will do in a lifetime, and in addition to that what you may not realise is that a lot of these rescues you talk about were created by people who have met as a DIRECT result of husky owners.

[Sarah]

gobsmacked that we are supporting back yard breeding mentality!

 

I will be saying no more on this - but i am absolutely disgusted that this has been implied I will refrain from posting further on this thread as i will get banned for what i want to post in response needless to say i think that you will find every member on this forum apart from you both, will agree that we don't support back yard breeding - if anyone thinks differently - feel free to post up in this thread and Marc can respond, i'm having no more part in this thread 

[Removed #5]

It looks as if I just need to go ahead and type if I'm going to get a word in edgewise in this thread.

 

I agree with you, Lani, that there needs to be a lot more education of (prospective) breeders.  I disagree that this is the place to do it. 

 

My initial reaction to your comment, Jamie, is that it sounds like a good idea.  If there are breeders out there who do everything "by the book" then why not let them advertise here?  Simply, to my mind it's the friendship of everyone here that makes this site what it is; go to almost any "breed oriented site" and 75% of our dogs would be laughed out ... we're casual, we're friendly, we even take the time to help someone who's thinking about breeding (even if it is to try to dissuade them!)

Lani, with her show dogs / work dogs is an excellent example of what I like to think this place is - a home for everyone (even if they are a breeder).

[BlueWolf]

When you have a site like this you inevitably get the "I want to breed my __________ because I can" posts.  Most of these people are under educated as pertaining to not just the breed but to the responsibility they are taking on.  Yet we are supposed to look past that part of the post and focus on "aww cute puppy", tying hands that could point these people in a more positive direction, to find the education they need to find, find the mentoring they so desperately need, that without they end up adding to the problem that create such a need for rescue organizations.  No one said make this a breeder site, we simply ask you quit stifling breeder education- because by allowing the "I want to breed" posts you are supporting the undereducated Backyard Breeder mentality.

 

I've been looking through the rules and I simply cannot find the part that says you can't give advice to those that are thinking of breeding their dog. Can you? I can very easily search for posts where people asked for help. Reasons for and against breeding were given as well as links to educational websites. The only post we don't allow is those of the ones that are selling animals.

[Marc]

I've been looking through the rules and I simply cannot find the part that says you can't give advice to those that are thinking of breeding their dog. Can you? I can very easily search for posts where people asked for help. Reasons for and against breeding were given as well as links to educational websites. The only post we don't allow is those of the ones that are selling animals.

 

Good reason you cant find that rule Jos. It doesnt exist.

[jmscott]

We also have a lack of support for people with type 1 diabetes . We are not a diabetes site either.

 

Suggestion has been noted, but the answer is no it will not be added. I have no idea who either of those websites are and if I did I would not know if they are ethical breeders without going through all of the things I mentioned above. You havent answer the question of how I would know? Im not asking what they check, Im asking how I would check? I dont know these people, I havent got the time to be checking every breeder. Not to mention the fact that I do not know the laws of every country on the planet, nor every organisation.

 

Well this simple request has been twisted into nasty accusations. 

Htpuppies (Health Tested Puppies From Consciencious Breeders), requires proof of health tests -links to the ofa/cerf website and scans of said certificates. Karen Yeargain is a very big name in working siberians. She is also working on research for a possible genetic neuro-muscular defect that affects SH.

[Jay]

I also don't get how this site is stifling breeder education.  I think the point is, this forum wasn't designed for that.  If you want to get education on breeding then they must be other sites for that...this isn't the forum for that.  You will find many groups that ban anything to do with the selling of animals.  

 

While you may have some valid arguments regarding breeder education, this is not the forum to discuss it in.  Marc and Sarah have built a great place to come to for advise and meet ups, and if they would open the doors and encourage breeding it would create many more problems.  Also, they already said that isn't the point to this forum.  My feeling is that this is their site, and they are free to make it how they want, and if some people have a problem with that, then they are free to leave. 

 

And I wanted to note that there are no accusations coming from the admins and moderators of this site.  The first one came from accusing them of supporting back yard breeders...

[Marc]

Well this simple request has been twisted into nasty accusations. 

Htpuppies (Health Tested Puppies From Consciencious Breeders), requires proof of health tests -links to the ofa/cerf website and scans of said certificates. Karen Yeargain is a very big name in working siberians. She is also working on research for a possible genetic neuro-muscular defect that affects SH.

 

What nasty accusations? I quoted directly the accusations stated against our site.

 

No one said make this a breeder site, we simply ask you quit stifling breeder education- because by allowing the "I want to breed" posts you are supporting the undereducated Backyard Breeder mentality.

You still have not answered my questions. I know that you know who these place are. Im askin how I would know? I could make a website now which is "SEBHuskies". Stands for Society for ethical breeding of siberian huskies. You would have no way of knowing I have sat there and created it myself, you wouldnt have a clue. So my question stands, how would I know?

[HuskyMom09]

I would like to be able to post links to education and help put people into contact with reputable individuals if/when they do come here searching for their next family member without feeling like I'm walking on egg shells breaking some sort of unspeakable rules here.  Karen Yeargain, for example, a top working line kennel is leading the field in neurological disease research of the breed, they are on the verge of discovering potentially a new gene to a disorder that has been vastly under researched and almost unheard of within the breed- to me THAT seems like very worth while information. Her research and education is posted on her kennel page which since she is a breeder would not be allowed.  Many of the top breeders are leading the field in breed specific research and breeder education.  Would those posts be banned, people's hands slapped, or welcomed.  Since this is not a breeder friendly zone, I'd have to guess not.

[Sarah]

because we can't allow links for the sale of animals - if we do we open up to a raft of issues, we are not allowing people to link here to buy animals whether they be from ethical breeders or not we do not condone back yard breeding either - which, if we allowed links to sites selling animals to be sold, we would be

[Marc]

I would like to be able to post links to education and help put people into contact with reputable individuals if/when they do come here searching for their next family member without feeling like I'm walking on egg shells breaking some sort of unspeakable rules here.  Karen Yeargain, for example, a top working line kennel is leading the field in neurological disease research of the breed, they are on the verge of discovering potentially a new gene to a disorder that has been vastly under researched and almost unheard of within the breed- to me THAT seems like very worth while information. Her research and education is posted on her kennel page which since she is a breeder would not be allowed.  Many of the top breeders are leading the field in breed specific research and breeder education.  Would those posts be banned, people's hands slapped, or welcomed.  Since this is not a breeder friendly zone, I'd have to guess not.

 

OK ... Im not sure how much more clearly I can put this, but I will  try:

 

WE DO NOT ALLOW LINKS TO SITES WHICH ARE SELLING ANIMALS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. THERE IS NO RULE WHATSOEVER ABOUT GIVING PEOPLE INFORMATION, PUTTING PEOPLE IN TOUCH WITH SOMEONE, OF GIVING THEM LINKS TO A WEBSITE WITH INFORMATION PROVIDED IT DOES NOT CONTROVINE THAT RULE.

 

AT WHICH POINT has anyone said otherwise?????

 

I will appologise now for the caps, but since you specifically are accusing our site of supporting back yard breeders, do not expect a civil reply because you are calling the hard work we have put in for over 5 years!

[Emma]

Lani, If you have information on this neurological research to share then there's nothing stopping you from copying and pasting the text.

[jmscott]

Lani, it's the links that are not allowed. If you have information on this neurological research to share then there's nothing stopping you from copying and pasting the text.

 

Karen's contact information is with that research. I have already had my posts deleted on that one for 'promoting a breeder'.

 

It is not fair to Karen to just tell people that there is research out there that may explain why their dog is paralyzed, but not try to connect them.

[Marc]

Karen's contact information is with that research. I have already had my posts deleted on that one for 'promoting a breeder'.

 

Is that website actively selling animals?

 

I will answer this myself. Yes it does, and quite clearly. That is the reason it was removed. Her email is clearly available on the very same page, what was the problem with giving that email address to someone?

[HuskyMom09]

Karen Yeargain is a breeder yes, she does not actively list litters she is a contact for inquiries only site, as most ethical breeders are-