Shock Collars?

[kaseyandandi]

So my friend just bought a new puppy and decided to go with the shock collar "training" method.  It seems kind of cruel to me...especially with all the different kinds of training methods out there.  I was just wondering if anyone else has any thoughts about it or have ever tried it themselves.  Maybe I'm misinformed or misguided in my thinking.

[Sid&BellaNTX]

I'm personally not a fan of shock collars.  I prefer positive reinforcement.  There's SO many better ways to train a dog than a stupid shock collar.

[Removed #5]

Kassandra, you'll find that this is a very hot topic. It's been brought up more than a few times in the past and seems to have very vocal pro/opponents.

If you search for shock collars, I think you'll find that most of them end up as locked threads ...

[Elyse]

I would like to make an announcement before more replies are added:

As Al said, this is a very sensitive topic for some people. This thread MUST be kept civil, or it will be locked. 

 

 

Personally, I would never use a shock collar to train a dog, let alone a puppy! There are many other methods he can use to train, including positive reinforcement. While I have heard it is not cruel (it feels like a strong vibrator along your neck and it provides pressure to go along with it), it can be dangerous if used on a puppy because I BELIEVE they are not designed for use on puppies. 

Not to mention, huskies are stubborn little creatures, so they can learn to ignore and 'tune-out' the shock collar. 

Just curious, what is he planning to use the shock collar for? For training what, exactly? 

[kaseyandandi]

Ohh I figured it would be a controversial topic but I didn't realize it could get that bad.  I think he said it was going to mostly be used when he's biting, barking, pulling.  There were a few others.  I tried to talk him out of it but apparently he's had some success with dogs he's had in the past...

[sarahp87]

I will admit that I purchased a shock collar for my youngest, Breeze, to try and correct his behaviour when he sees other dogs and can't get to them to say hi.

It arrived, I put it together and my dad decided to put it against my leg as a joke and shock me! (LOL) and it really hurt and I didn't want to subject my furbaby to it!! Since then I haven't used it on shock mode, but it does have a vibrate mode (doesn't hurt at all but just distracts) and that works nicely

[BlueWolf]

I once read a research on shock collars which showed that, although they work, they also raise the stress levels of the dog. Positive reinforcement achieved the same result at the same speed, except for the dogs to be noticeable calmer. They also tested the buzzer but didn't found any difference or dogs learned quicker than without the collar.

 

Especially for huskies, positive reinforcement training is usually very successful. Something that worked in the past (on an entirely different breed!) is not guaranteed to work on other dogs. I personally wouldn't want my dogs, or any other dog I train, to be scared when I put their collar own, I have already achieved the obedience I wanted without have to use tools that hurt my dogs even in the slightest.

[Emma]

Over here they're pretty frowned upon, I've personally never encountered anyone who's used one or even seen one first hand. They're certainly not common. I wouldn't want to use one myself on any of my pets to be honest. There are so many other methods you can use to achieve the same effect if you re willing to put in the effort that I don't see what real value they have.

[Devildust76]

I had a VERY heated debate with a woman that I work with when she told me that she'd bought a shock collar for her puppy. I basically told her I thought it was a barbaric way to 'train' any dog and there were better methods around if she cared to do a little research. We used the NILF method with our boy and are going down the same route with our new addition at the moment (she is only 10 weeks after all)

[Juno]

I think there is a time and place to use them if all other methods have not been successful, or if the issue is that you aren't able to control the dog in a certain situation (for example, a dog park where they refuse to listen to commands due to excitement), but I don't completely hate them. I've seen them work, and I've seen them not work. It depends on the person using it, and whether or not they use it correctly. For a puppy, I feel like they are too young for it to be effective and could lead to more negative consequences. 

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

what pees me off is people using them as a way to let huskies offlead!

[Bec]

what pees me off is people using them as a way to let huskies offlead!

What's wrong with that? Genuine question. The dogs get to run off leash and enjoy freedom they otherwise wouldn't have had. It proofs their recall which can only be a good thing.

I obviously have no problem with remote training collars like I have no problem with many other tools, like anything it relies on the person to use it properly.

I have seen 100s of dogs trained with e collars and I use them myself. A good quality collar has around 100 levels of stim - modern e collar training uses the collar on the lowest perceivable level to the dog. It's not painful. It's not electrocuting them or anything like that. The lowest perceivable level is less aversive to the dog than the vibration level.

I've not met one person, even people who are hesitant or have heard bad things about e collars, be against the tool once being shown how to use it properly. In fact people think they are awesome especially once they see how quickly and easily it gets results and how well the dog responds to it.

Setting out to use one on a puppy as has been described in the OP is clearly not the right way to use the tool, but that doesn't make the tool itself bad. It's just a tool that needs the user to use it properly

[jmscott]

Another explanation of the four quadrants of operant conditioning. Its pretty obvious where shock collars fall.

[Bec]

Over here they're pretty frowned upon, I've personally never encountered anyone who's used one or even seen one first hand. They're certainly not common. I wouldn't want to use one myself on any of my pets to be honest. There are so many other methods you can use to achieve the same effect if you re willing to put in the effort that I don't see what real value they have.

I think the point is that if you look at it from a training perspective - yes there are other ways train a recall (for example). But you also have to take into account the skill level of the owner; the dogs temperament and history; the dogs behavior Etc. Many pet owners don't want to spend months or years training recall, and there is no way to build a reliable recall faster or easier than using a e collar. Some people would otherwise never have a dog trained to recall reliably. The end result is a happy dog and owner which can only be a great thing.

When it comes to behavior that is flat out dangerous to other dogs or people its also vital that the owner can get control back with the dog as quickly as possible.

Often people argue in these threads that there are so many other methods that work just as well and whilst its true there are lots of other methods that can be effective not every method is suitable for every dog and owner.

[Bec]

Another explanation of the four quadrants of operant conditioning. Its pretty obvious where shock collars fall.

I'm not sure what you're point is here - are you saying you only ever use two of the four quadrants?

How many dogs have you trained to LLW using only +R and -P? Not being snarky, genuinely curious

IMO all quadrants have their place in training and you can use a combination of them in the same training session. It's not just one or the other.

[jmscott]

I simply don't see any place where positive punishment fits into any kind of training. 

[Bec]

I simply don't see any place where positive punishment fits into any kind of training.

So you don't agree with using any tools like no pull harnesses, head collars, martingales etc?

When a desperate dog owner comes to see us for training and says "this is my last stop before I have it PTS" it's a matter of life of death for the dog and you have one opportunity to give the owner hope back. It goes back to what I said before that not all methods are suitable for all owners and dogs.

On a lighter note when it comes to training new behaviors I think using +R is a great way to get the dog to learn but it's not so effective when the dog has already learnt and developed a bad behavior like counter surfing for example. Applying a quick correction immediately teaches the dog that behavior is no longer successful. And for dogs that are highly driven the loss of a reward can be more stressful to them than a physical correction - so I don't believe using rewards in training is stress free

[Elyse]

Actually, I have. I use Suka's martingale collar to correct whenever he pulls. It's the only method I find works. Giving him positive reinforcement when he isn't pulling doesn't work (treats just excite him and make him pull more, and he just ignores verbal praise). So, in that retrospect, I use the +P and -R quadrants. It doesn't make me a bad owner - I know how to use the tool correctly and safely. 

 

Everything else, though, I find works better (for myself and my dog) when we use positive reinforcements. Treats are the best kind.

But I would always encourage trying to use positive reinforcement methods first - it is less stressful on the dog for sure!

[Bec]

Just to clarify my favorite method of training is training in drive, which means you are using food or toys to give the dog an awesome reward experience and work with their natural instinct. My dogs are highly motivated to work with me but I also know from experience this style of training whilst I love it, doesn't suit every dog and owner for various reasons

[Removed #5]

Just to clarify my favorite method of training is training in drive, which means you are using food or toys to give the dog an awesome reward experience and work with their natural instinct. My dogs are highly motivated to work with me but I also know from experience this style of training whilst I love it, doesn't suit every dog and owner for various reasons

 

Bec - would you mind doing a write up of what "training in drive" is?  What it is that you mean by it?  Google really isn't a lot of help to me and you refer to it when these controversial threads come up as (and I'm not trying to be, as you say, snarky) an apparent god send for training.  I'd really appreciate if you'd drop it into another thread so we don't hijack this one - but as the Enquirer says "Enquiring minds want to know!"

[Bec]

Hey Al, I will see what I can do. Will start another thread for you

[Emma]

I think the point is that if you look at it from a training perspective - yes there are other ways train a recall (for example). But you also have to take into account the skill level of the owner; the dogs temperament and history; the dogs behavior Etc. Many pet owners don't want to spend months or years training recall, and there is no way to build a reliable recall faster or easier than using a e collar. Some people would otherwise never have a dog trained to recall reliably. The end result is a happy dog and owner which can only be a great thing.

When it comes to behavior that is flat out dangerous to other dogs or people its also vital that the owner can get control back with the dog as quickly as possible.

Often people argue in these threads that there are so many other methods that work just as well and whilst its true there are lots of other methods that can be effective not every method is suitable for every dog and owner.

 

Yes there are lots of other methods and as a dog trainer yourself I'm sure you're only too aware of what can and can't be trained reliably with regard to varying breeds, but sadly not everyone will have the same experiences or indeed the correct knowledge of how to use it.  The potential for the dog to suffer at the hands of an ill educated owner is what deems it in my eyes to not really have any value as the list of pro's versus con's falls more heavily on the con's side.  Of course that depends on your own personal perspectives and I appreciate that everyone's will differ, but as there are such a vast number of alterative and less painful ways of teaching recall, I can't really see a burning need for a shock collar in the instance of training a basic command such as recall in a regular dog.  Of course huskies are different and recall is notoriously shaky but then no amount of shocking will completely override what is basically a primary instinct, you'll just end up having to shock them periodically over their lives.  That isn't really training them out of the behaviour, it's merely reprimanding them when they display it. 

[Bec]

Emma I understand what you are saying but I think your argument is based on a misunderstanding of how the tool works. It's not painful and you don't "shock" them for non compliance with the command you teach them what the stim means and how to respond to it.

The e collar at the end of the day is just a tool and how well it works depends entirely on the person using it

People who use or rather misuse a tool to abuse their dogs will sadly abuse them regardless of what tool they are using.

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

What's wrong with that? Genuine question. The dogs get to run off leash and enjoy freedom they otherwise wouldn't have had. It proofs their recall which can only be a good thing.

I obviously have no problem with remote training collars like I have no problem with many other tools, like anything it relies on the person to use it properly.

I have seen 100s of dogs trained with e collars and I use them myself. A good quality collar has around 100 levels of stim - modern e collar training uses the collar on the lowest perceivable level to the dog. It's not painful. It's not electrocuting them or anything like that. The lowest perceivable level is less aversive to the dog than the vibration level.

I've not met one person, even people who are hesitant or have heard bad things about e collars, be against the tool once being shown how to use it properly. In fact people think they are awesome especially once they see how quickly and easily it gets results and how well the dog responds to it.

Setting out to use one on a puppy as has been described in the OP is clearly not the right way to use the tool, but that doesn't make the tool itself bad. It's just a tool that needs the user to use it properly

because its not a recall if it needs shocking to make it return to you!

[Bec]

because its not a recall if it needs shocking to make it return to you!

Again I think there's some misunderstanding about how the tool is actually used

The dog is taught recall with the collar but the end result is still that you have a dog that responds reliably to its recall command. You don't keep stimming the dog forever. You wouldn't be able to tell how the dog was trained. The collar is just the tool to help the dog learn much like how you'd use a food reward.