Sid_Wolf Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 is she scared of him? when kira was a puppy we had OH's Dads GF at the time living with us, and she was quite happy initially with the puppy idea, but Kira saw her as a weak link, all the GF did was give her treats and fuss, she had no part in training or walking, and Kira decided she was an easy target and basically bullied the hell out of her. She wouldnt listen to her, snatched food, bit her arse multiple times, tried to tear her dressing gown off, nipped her heels etc etc The more Kiz done it, the more the GF was wary and scared of her, so the more kiz did it! Never ending circle really lol (personally me and OH found it funny, we didnt like her ) she never did manage to get her to stop, eventually the GF left (no, not because of kira! lol) and Kira has never ever acted the same way since. try to get your wife to bond with him more, take part in training and being more firm with him. And try to figure out if she is wary or scared of him, because he will pick up on this and see it as a weakness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyse Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 I just want to put this out there, I've read about 50% of the replies here so forgive me if I skipped over this already. But, is it possible that Shinobi is part wolf? Why do you think that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InterSimi Posted November 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 I just want to make a couple of things clear, so there is no confusion. 1. Marie feeds Shinobi his main meals 2. Marie trains with him. Sit, down etc, in a calm way, feeding him his food when he does what he is told 3. During training, Shinobi is fine and does what he is told, by both of us 4. Marie walks Shinobi as often as I do 5. Marie is scared of Shinobi when he acts the aggressive 6. I am not scared of Shinobi in the slightest (but he does hurt) I am at home today, with Shinobi. Here is what he has done: Started training with calming sit commands. He was great at this and really gentle in taking the food. He would lay down and run when I asked him too (when throwing the treat). We ended with sit training and he would touch my hand, before he would be treated. The I finished and started watching TV. Shinobi, jumped on the sofa and lay down with me for 30 minutes, then jumped off. Really cuddly, really nice, just as we would like him to be. He is laying on the floor, then decides to come and bit by leg. I told tried to ignore him, but he escalated it up to arms and then by my head. I had to tell him 'no', then ended up putting him in his crate. Instantly, he is calm. I don't have to wait for him to calm down, he is already calm. What do I do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InterSimi Posted November 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 I have now opened the crate, he is still laying in there (not like him). I will let you know how it goes. I did phone Battersea this morning to ask for advice, but got the answer machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Angel n Auroras Mum Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 I have now opened the crate, he is still laying in there (not like him). I will let you know how it goes. I did phone Battersea this morning to ask for advice, but got the answer machine. he is sulking because you told him off and punished him leave him and he will come out when he has finished being a toddler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 he is sulking because you told him off and punished him leave him and he will come out when he has finished being a toddler What? Dogs aren't children. Many dogs love their crates and like to stay in them, my dogs often choose to be in their crates. He's probably just comfortable in there. InterSimi if your dog is behaving well when you are training him, take what you are doing in those sessions and incorporate it with your day to day interactions with him. I would also be crate training him during times you are with him watching TV etc, I wouldn't be having him on the lounge for now. Teach him that he can be in the room with you but he has to be in his place (i.e. the crate). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Angel n Auroras Mum Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 What? Dogs aren't children. Many dogs love their crates and like to stay in them, my dogs often choose to be in their crates. He's probably just comfortable in there. InterSimi if your dog is behaving well when you are training him, take what you are doing in those sessions and incorporate it with your day to day interactions with him. I would also be crate training him during times you are with him watching TV etc, I wouldn't be having him on the lounge for now. Teach him that he can be in the room with you but he has to be in his place (i.e. the crate). someone forgot to tell my Angel that because she often sulks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 someone forgot to tell my Angel that because she often sulks LOL Ok Louise. This will be one of those agree to disagree things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Angel n Auroras Mum Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 LOL Ok Louise. This will be one of those agree to disagree things yeah ok chalk it up on the list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InterSimi Posted November 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 i havent read the other responses...but sounds like the dog sees himself higher in the pack than your wife. SHE is the one who needs to change and put in place training so he respects her. If she isnt willing to change then i think you are at a loosing battle - sorry!. however they are very intelligent and will learn fast. Whats the point of the muzzle? - to stop mouthing at your wife?? If so, pointless as hes not learning its just a barrier to prevent Marie would be rather glad to hear it is pointless, it is the points in his mouth that hurts her. Seriously, you say it is pointless, but unless you have ever been dominated by a dog, to the extend that it bits you all of the time, I think you would agree that a muzzle is not pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
husky princess Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Marie would be rather glad to hear it is pointless, it is the points in his mouth that hurts her. Seriously, you say it is pointless, but unless you have ever been dominated by a dog, to the extend that it bits you all of the time, I think you would agree that a muzzle is not pointless. when you say bite - is it bite leaving teeth indentations or teeth sunk in aggressively drawing blood etc. as they are 2 different scenarios and IMO dealt with differently. And believe me i have been dominated by welfare adults resulting in visits to A&E and needing dressings and anti-biotics for weeks. has he learnt bite inhibition?? perhaps read up on this? It sounds that it could be complex and he really needs observing from a very experienced sled dog behavourist, taking advice from a forum may only offer conflicting advice and poss not appropriate to the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InterSimi Posted November 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hi Princess, The biting does result in lots of bruising and there is definitely teeth indentations and occasionally blood. I do believe it is him trying to get our attention, and hence playful and not aggressive. Does anyone recommend a Husky behaviourist in Berkshire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
husky princess Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 i totally recommend Tonin Aguilera from Waggin tails, he is based near bath but he does travel. He has sibes himself which he runs and are very well mannered trained boys. Hes been an amazing support and advice board for my welfare boy who is very complex and has issues resulting from ph ysical abuse and far too many homes. If you can get to the ABSA rally at thuxton race circuit this sunday he will be there (sign written van gives them away!)however he is running his dogs so he may not be able to chat at length etc, Also a good way to see sibes working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
husky princess Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hi Princess, The biting does result in lots of bruising and there is definitely teeth indentations and occasionally blood. I do believe it is him trying to get our attention, and hence playful and not aggressive. Does anyone recommend a Husky behaviourist in Berkshire? http://www.waggintailsuk.com/trainingfrome.html i totally recommend Tonin Aguilera from Waggin tails, he is based near bath but he does travel. He has sibes himself which he runs and are very well mannered trained boys. Hes been an amazing support and advice board for my welfare boy who is very complex and has issues resulting from ph ysical abuse and far too many homes. If you can get to the ABSA rally at thuxton race circuit this sunday he will be there (sign written van gives them away!)however he is running his dogs so he may not be able to chat at length etc, Also a good way to see sibes working. IMO worth the money and you will get the results you want/need Once hes observed the dog and asked lots of questions he will do lots of work with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 i totally recommend Tonin Aguilera from Waggin tails If you can get to the ABSA rally at thuxton race circuit this sunday he will be there (sign written van gives them away!)however he is running his dogs so he may not be able to chat at length etc, Also a good way to see sibes working. i cant comment on the guy Claire has recommended as I dont know him, but if you do decide to go (and if he has helped Storm then I would suggest going, even if just for a chat) then try to talk to him after he has finished running, as he will more than likely have more time to talk. And make sure to tell the whole truth about all the issues, otherwise he wont be able to help you properly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InterSimi Posted November 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Unfortunately I am on night shift on Sunday, so won't be able to attend the race. I will check out his website and reach out to him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 I've been avoiding this and just really can't help myself ... have you considered keeping the dog and getting a new wife??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magical Merlin Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hey, I just wanted to let you know that i have lived with several dogs that were biters. I know how difficult it is and can understand why your wife is scared of your dog. Its very hard to live in a house where you don't know whats going to happen next. I'm sure its hard for all of you to be in that situation. From what i've read on the forum it does sound like he's trying to play with you rather than that he's out right aggressive. Has he ever been possessive of food, toys, chews, the sofa, the bed etc? Just helps to build up a bigger picture. I strongly reccomend reading the culture clash...great book and it helps to understand what dogs are thinking. here's what i did with merlin when he was really aggressive and i used it now if he's having a biting day (but like i say i'm not sure your lad is aggressive...just a big idiot) Merlin has his bed. Its placed in the room away from the door way (so he can't guard the door) and chairs. I have taught him to go to his bed when told. So, if he is having a day where he wan'ts to attack every one he can be sent to his bed. He can snarl, scream, eyeball...pretty much what ever he likes provided he does not leave that bed. Occassionally i will physically have to herd him into it by body blocking him (i never drag him or grab him...its a sure way to get bitten). This has helped us greatly and all family members can be in the room with merlin in his bed. My previous boy max was also an aggression biter. he didn't do it for attention he did it because he was guarding something, or scared of something or just didn't like something. There was no way of prodicting it and when he got you you knew about it...45kg of rotti x gsd. Sadly there was no way to help him. He just didn't fit into the way the world needs dogs to be. If you think your guy is biting for attention maybe try teaching him another way to get it? If you allow toys in the house how about teach him to get a toy, if he wants to interact he must bring a ragger or a ball or something and then its a shared toy you both interact with....I work with rescue dogs, some of which are quite aggressive. After teaching them to "leave it" I teach them how to play tug. These dogs are desperate to bite something and really rag on it, rip it and chew it up. By having a tug toy they can do this but it is controlled. They must leave when told and the game is only re initiated by me. This game really helps to wear off their fustrations and I use it with my rottie as she has a tendancy to get grabby when over excited or attention seeking. Quick game to tug, endorphins released, fustration released and she's a nice normal dog again. She has a horrible habbit of biting people as they walk past the dog gate and she is shut on the other side. When everyone remembers she is always told to sit and stay while we walk past....then a treat is given to her. The ragger really really helps with her and she doesn't mouth/grab nearly as much as she did when she was young. She's also learnt to have a softer mouth though bite inhabition training. If you let your dog catch treats when you throw them for him you need to stop. He must only take treats out of your hand very gentley...its stops encouraging him to grab at moving objects. Have you thought about a house lead? Its a short lead that the dog has attatched in the home. It saves you having to put your hands on his collar/neck/body. Intead when he jumps you you you can get hold of the lead and use it to pull him off you or someone else. It sounds like your giving him plenty of exercise....and the training will help with the mental stimulation...A tierd dog is a good dog. Always. If your finding he still has alot of energy you could give him an activity ball (food goes in holes, dog rolls ball to get food out), frozen kongs, raw hides or play puzzle games with him like find the treat. If his brain is occupied there is less time for him to be naughty. I'm sure you already do it but everyone in the home must do the same thing. Everyone must feed, walk, train...all rules are the same - can always sit on the sofa or never sit on the sofa. Can always get attention for pestering you or never get attention for pestering you. Everyone has to do the same thing. The dog can't discriminate between lets say you let him on the sofa at 7pm and your children never letting him on the sofa...Dogs just can't understand why. Its all or nothing with them. Something can always be done or never be done. Does he get much time to play with other dogs? This can help with biting too. Dogs learn about biting and how much pressure they can put on other dogs though play. If he is a rough player and other dogs cry alot during play then he doesn't know how hard he can bite them either. If he's a gentle player it shows hope that he has some bite inhabition...he just needs to learn how to do it with people. If he's not already castrated that may help. It worked really well with merlin and has reduced some of his aggression, although like i say i'm not sure your lad is aggressive, he's just a monkey who has learnt its okay to bite people. I really wouldn't reccomend pinning him or anything like that...if you grab a fustrated animal and stop it from showing natural behaviour by forcing it into a position where it can't get away from you, you create a time bomb. Dogs are very very good at learning peoples little signals and he will learn when you are going to pin him - biting dad on the leg means i get pinned - next time bite dad on the leg, then grab his arms so he can't get me - got pinned again. Bite dad on leg, go for arms, miss get dad on the face/in the neck - result dad didn't pin me...next time bypass all other bites and go straight for neck/face area. Its not a good senario to get into and unfortunalty is someting i have seen in several rescue dogs. They have simply learnt to bypass all warning systems like snarling, snapping, warning bites and go straight in for a major bite because it has worked before. Creating time outs when he bites you may help as well. If he grabs anyone, everybody in that room gets up walks out and slams the door leaving the dog alone in the room for 5 minuets. Everyone goes back in and as long as he is calm, doesn't bite everyone can go back to watching tv/doing home work or what ever. If you open the door and he gets someone again, leave him there and walk out again. His though process now chages from bite = contact with human (contact is touch, eye contact, talking/yelling/negative reactions) to bite = i'm alone and everyone ignored me. Dogs learn through things that get a reward, things that get no reaction and things that get a bad reaction. If biting you gets the dog something he sees as a reward (this can be all sorts of wierd things to us like shouting, punishment, shaking, slapping etc) he will continue to show a behaviour. If he gets no reaction or a bad reaction the behaviour is less likely to happen again. It just the way that dogs learn. Something is good, nothing or bad. If its good do it again...if its nothing maybe try it but its not worth the energy if its bad don't do it again. You said the shaker had no effect on him, this will be because your socilised him well and he's not sound sensitive therefore it has no reaction to him...he can ignore it. Shouting at him is going to give him a good reaction...he got you to talk to him and jump about and even touch him....ignoring him...well thats a bit pants, he's stuck on his own and he didn't get what he wanted. Next time he might try something else like brining you that shared toy or sitting next to you because that always gets a cuddle or a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Very nice article with some very good suggestions there Heather!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InterSimi Posted November 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hi, that was a very good post. Let me try and explain some of the things we have tried. First off, Shinobi has been neutered (we got his at 11 months old from Battersea). OK, we have tried ignoring him and leaving him alone in the front room. Ignoring him, results in him "upping his game". First off, he will go into barking/howling mode, whilst he dances about the place, going low down, in his stalking mode. He will then come in for a couple of glancing nips, then escalate it to biting the backs of your legs (quite hard, so as to bruise)' then start biting your bum (again quite hard). There is only so much ignoring him you can do, until you hurt too much (for both my wife and myself). We have tried the ignoring him, this doesn't work. The next thing would be to take ourselves away from the scenario, like leaving the room. Again we tried this and Shinobi would start to eat everything, from our shoes to our computer chairs. We have removed shoes etc, from the living room, but he will then start to eat desks etc, which we can't easily remove, without giving him the whole front room (not going to happen). What I have found myself doing now, is to try and ignore his mouthing, reach for the dog kibble, and get him to sit. He will do this. I then take hold of hi collar and put him in his crate. I have tried throwing kibble etc in to his crate, but he is too cleverer for that, and will refuse to go in there. I do have CCTV in the front room (to observe him when I am not there), I will try and get a copy and post it here, so you can see. It will not be the best quality, as the room is quite dark and the night vision kicks in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InterSimi Posted November 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 He does get to play with other dogs occasionally. Most dog owners take a wide birth, because he does play quite hard. However, there are a few dog owners, who don't mind that, and they play very well with each other, with now barking in pain etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InterSimi Posted November 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 I have had a discussion with the family and I think, after trying a lot of thing over the last 5 months, we are going to have to make the decision to let Shinobi go. I have phoned Battersea and asked them what my options are, and they are going to call me back. The lady on the phone, said that they could book him in as early as next week. Obviously, I am devastated, as I think that he will be a great dog, if we could just get over this mouthing stage. He is about 14 month old now, he is moving towards getting out of his adolescent stage and it will be a shame, to go through all of this with him, only to have to give him up. Unfortunately, I have to listed to my family, as well as get my own point across. Having spoke to my 15 year old son and asked him what he would think if we gave him up, he said, part of him will miss Shinobi, the other part would not. I can see his point of view entirely. Shinobi does tend to "pick" on him too, so he rarely comes in to the front room when Shinobi is running around, unless we are there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Melsom Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Marius gets time outs when hes being bad he will get tied up in a spot where he can see everybody but he cannot take part in anything we are doing. I read that packs will do this to other wolves that are out of line not tie them up but make them sit out until they are calm and behaved. I dunno if that helps everyone else has some pretty good ideas ^.^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magical Merlin Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 really sorry to hear this. It does genuinly sound like you have tried very hard with him. Taking on a rescue of any age is tough, let alone a young and spirited one who has obviously never been taught what he can and can't put his mouth on. I really hope the experience hasn't put you off taking on another rescue an i'm sure battersea will be greatful for all the information you have gained about him so that they can either use their behaviourists to work on his behaviour or to ensure his next owners are aware of his exsisting behavioural problems. Try not to beat yourself up too much. I personally believe this may be the best option not only for your family but for your dog too and having him in your home for this time will have been valuable for battersea as i know they take on new information about any of their returns to ensure the next owners are prepared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InterSimi Posted November 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Thank you Merlin, that is what I needed to hear. We will be visiting Battersea tomorrow morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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