raindog Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I dont completly disagree with showing i just dont think it's the be all and end all for breeding dogs. Nobody has suggested that it is. All people are saying is that it is one of the most effective ways of ascertaining whether your dog is of sufficient quality for breeding. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I don't think it's an underlying evil in the show world - doing the wrong thing is about the person not showing itself, that's what I meant when I said the bad breeders will be bad breeders regardless of if they showed their dogs or not. And that's why every single one of us who have posted in this thread and others about the merits of showing your dogs have said that it's not the be all and end all, and that a good reputable breeder will not rely on showing as the only indicator they have a good dog. Showing does support these 'evils' <<< they hand out ribbons and prizes to these very offenders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Surely you must be able to grasp the concept of a comparision >> i was making the comparison to help depict it >>> In society it's better to show the truth, in all situations, so yes i used Hitler? The BBC has shown the bad side and 'we love our dogs' have shown theirs >>> seems fair to me. I dont completly disagree with showing i just dont think it's the be all and end all for breeding dogs. I actually had to search for 'we love our dogs' because I had no idea what it was referring to. Bit sad isn't it? The whole world heard about the BBC documentary but no one is interested in hearing the good stuff - why? Because bad press always rates higher. You yourself asked why should we talk about and show the good side, I am simply answering that I think we should promote the great things in the purebred world or we won't have purebred dogs for much longer I was actually referring to the part of the BBC documentary that referred to purebred dog breeders as akin to the holocaust. I mean seriously - breeding dogs vs Hitler? Not only is it an insulting comparison to draw for those who live and breath purebred dogs but for the people who actually suffered due to Hitler's regime. I fail to see how drawing such an insulting and ridiculous comparison between purebred dog breeders and Hitlers has anything to do with "telling the truth"? How are analogies about being truthful? In this instance it's not truthful, it's down right insulting and offensive. Oh - and I agree with Mick, not once has anyone said showing is the be all and end all. You were the one who said you don't see how it relates to breeding and you don't see the point in it. ETA: Showing does support these 'evils' <<< they hand out ribbons and prizes to these very offenders. And you don't think the people showing the dogs should be responsible for the fact that they are secretly breeding dogs with genetic diseases? I really think the BBC documentary made it look like this happens all the time - it really is a rarity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Nobody has suggested that it is. All people are saying is that it is one of the most effective ways of ascertaining whether your dog is of sufficient quality for breeding. Mick Mick >> This is what i disagree with! To me its not one of the most effectove ways >> My two are to standard and was bred by a 'byb' << I hate this term as i dont feel like this couple are the scum of the earth, they loved their dogs to death but the only problem was the bitch was never registered! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I actually had to search for 'we love our dogs' because I had no idea what it was referring to. Bit sad isn't it? The whole world heard about the BBC documentary but no one is interested in hearing the good stuff - why? Because bad press always rates higher. You yourself asked why should we talk about and show the good side, I am simply answering that I think we should promote the great things in the purebred world or we won't have purebred dogs for much longer I was actually referring to the part of the BBC documentary that referred to purebred dog breeders as akin to the holocaust. I mean seriously - breeding dogs vs Hitler? Not only is it an insulting comparison to draw for those who live and breath purebred dogs but for the people who actually suffered due to Hitler's regime. I fail to see how drawing such an insulting and ridiculous comparison between purebred dog breeders and Hitlers has anything to do with "telling the truth"? How are analogies about being truthful? In this instance it's not truthful, it's down right insulting and offensive. Oh - and I agree with Mick, not once has anyone said showing is the be all and end all. You were the one who said you don't see how it relates to breeding and you don't see the point in it. ETA: And you don't think the people showing the dogs should be responsible for the fact that they are secretly breeding dogs with genetic diseases? I really think the BBC documentary made it look like this happens all the time - it really is a rarity. In my opnion suffering is suffering, may i ask the forum if anyone is offended or insulted by this comparison??? Dogs suffering in silnece and be drowned due to their lack of cosmetics beauty is no better (in my book) than killing people becuase of their race and how they look <<< i think it's all barbaric. And it being a rarity is not good enough, so yes why not show the good side...by this do you mean ignore the bad side? That wouldn't be very ethical woould it! We should show both points >> which is being done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Mick >> This is what i disagree with! To me its not one of the most effectove ways >> My two are to standard and was bred by a 'byb' << I hate this term as i dont feel like this couple are the scum of the earth, they loved their dogs to death but the only problem was the bitch was never registered! Ice, I know I've asked you this before but I can't remember your response How do you know your two dogs are good examples of the breed standard? Have you read the extended breed standard to have a solid understanding of the ins and outs? I know this is going to sound a bit pompous but how do you know you really understand the standard and know how to judge your own dogs without being 'kennel blind'? I wouldn't be confident enough to assess my dogs myself, that's one reason why we have dog shows, so experienced judges can look over our dogs and give us feed back on whether or not they meet the breed standard. If not, have you had knowledgeable and experienced people in the breed look over them? Or have you tested them in harness? I know breeders who have been breeding for years who still aren't confident enough to rely solely on their own opinion in regards to their dogs, that's why they show and work their dogs and get other people in the breed to assess them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I guess Bec ive only read what the books have to offer, see other sibes and know she is of a standard >> with sibes it's not that difficult from a far to say "oh yes thats deff a sibe" >>> Maybe she does have a few imperfections i havn't picked up on, but im pretty darn sure, and since she's not KC thats the best we can do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 In my opnion suffering is suffering, may i ask the forum if anyone is offended or insulted by this comparison??? Dogs suffering in silnece and be drowned due to their lack of cosmetics beauty is no better (in my book) than killing people becuase of their race and how they look <<< i think it's all barbaric. And it being a rarity is not good enough, so yes why not show the good side...by this do you mean ignore the bad side? That wouldn't be very ethical woould it! We should show both points >> which is being done. Gee, if I was a breeder I would be incredibly insulted at being compared to Hitler. I feel offended that my friends who breed and show were made out to be monsters and that the purebred world that I am incredibly passionate about was compared to the holocaust. I don't think the good aspects of the purebred dog world get enough press at all, maybe I'm just being sensitive because I'm sick of hearing about people think the BBC documentary represents the entire purebred community. I probably am just feeling sensitive because you even asked why we should highlight the good in purebred dogs! And if we have someone who is supposedly passionate about their breed asking why we should talk about the good things in purebred dogs it really makes me feel disheartened to think about what the state of our breed will be like in 20, 30 years or so. I would love if we had a perfect world where everyone did the right thing but unfortunately that will never happen There is good and bad in everything, not just purebred dogs. I never said that we should only talk about the good things, but that focusing on the negatives is only going to further alienate people from buying purebred dogs. I for one am passionate about promoting purebred dogs - am I really the only one? ETA: to be less snarky... it's been a long day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Mick >> This is what i disagree with! To me its not one of the most effectove ways >> My two are to standard and was bred by a 'byb' << I hate this term as i dont feel like this couple are the scum of the earth, they loved their dogs to death but the only problem was the bitch was never registered! But how do you know your dogs are to standard if they have not been assessed by experienced and knowledgable judges who know the breed and the breed standard inside out? ...and if showing under an experienced and knowledgable judge is not one of the most effective ways, what is? All our dogs are very well bred, but some of them have (very minor) faults which for me, would mean I wouldn't breed from them. Many people might not ever notice such minor faults, but I know they are there and those dogs won't ever be bred from. Just because they are my dogs and I love them dearly doesn't make them perfect. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I guess Bec ive only read what the books have to offer, see other sibes and know she is of a standard >> with sibes it's not that difficult from a far to say "oh yes thats deff a sibe" >>> Maybe she does have a few imperfections i havn't picked up on, but im pretty darn sure, and since she's not KC thats the best we can do! I guess that's what I mean though, I could pick a Sibe a mile off but I would never be confident enough to properly assess it against the breed standard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Gee, if I was a breeder I would be incredibly insulted at being compared to Hitler. I feel offended that my friends who breed and show were made out to be monsters and that the purebred world that I am incredibly passionate about was compared to the holocaust. I don't think the good aspects of the purebred dog world get enough press at all, maybe I'm just being sensitive because I'm sick of hearing about people think the BBC documentary represents the entire purebred community. I probably am just feeling sensitive because you even asked why we should highlight the good in purebred dogs! And if we have someone who is supposedly passionate about their breed asking why we should talk about the good things in purebred dogs it really makes me feel disheartened to think about what the state of our breed will be like in 20, 30 years or so. I would love if we had a perfect world where everyone did the right thing but unfortunately that will never happen There is good and bad in everything, not just purebred dogs. I never said that we should only talk about the good things, but that focusing on the negatives is only going to further alienate people from buying purebred dogs. I for one am passionate about promoting purebred dogs - am I really the only one? ETA: to be less snarky... it's been a long day I think you are a bit sensitive:) As you have seemed to ignore that not only did i say it's a minority and in no way am i refering to your firends and good breeders as Hitler >>> but im sure you know this;) I think the 'good; side has be showed for years, crufts on the BBC for years, is it wrong that now there is a problem to show it...no, but please read this part carefully (i know it's been a long day for us all lol) I think they should show both so im not completely disagreeing with you at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I know >> im sure my two are not perfect >> not saying they are, but to me they are lol, but i guess no one can judge for sure as they have not been judged and im not bothered about them being judged, little buggers are here now >> only thing left to do is love em Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I think you are a bit sensitive:) As you have seemed to ignore that not only did i say it's a minority and in no way am i refering to your firends and good breeders as Hitler >>> but im sure you know this;) I think the 'good; side has be showed for years, crufts on the BBC for years, is it wrong that now there is a problem to show it...no, but please read this part carefully (i know it's been a long day for us all lol) I think they should show both so im not completely disagreeing with you at all Once again Ice I'm referring to the documentary's comparison not what you said (although I do disagree with your comparison). It was only after a bit of promoting from us that you said that perhaps people like the ones in the BBC documentary are in the minority - I guess it's hard to stomach such strong opinions on showing from someone whose never been to one before. Although my experience is, I guess, anecdotal - I certainly don't see dogs riddled with health problems struggling around the ring when I go to shows And I guess the other thing that is hard to stomach is that some people probably quite liked watching Crufts until they watched the BBC documentary and now they are getting on their high horses about pedigree dogs since watching it - like dodgy breeding practices are some big secret! Once again there have always been and always will be people who do the wrong thing. Do you really think all the public slaughtering of purebred dogs is really helping the matter? I think it's doing purebred dogs a massive disservice, how many people have no interest in owning a purebred dog after hearing about the BBC documentary and are lumping all breeders and showies in the same category? Do you really think that the BBC documentary was the answer? I think it was probably one of the least effective things that could have been done to help purebred dogs. Do you think nothing was being done about these problems before the BBC documentary aired? Because I can tell you that was not the case. ETA: I know >> im sure my two are not perfect >> not saying they are, but to me they are lol, but i guess no one can judge for sure as they have not been judged and im not bothered about them being judged, little buggers are here now >> only thing left to do is love em Which is great and the most important thing! But also the reason why it's tricky for you to actually say they totally meet the breed standard, as it's hard to say they do without having them assessed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I think we're beginning to go round in circles now peeps. If you wish to carry on this discussion in a FRIENDLY mannor, please create a new thread. Back to the original question - Where did you get your sibe from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted June 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Sara - LOL sorry about that Bec - Yeah i do see what your saying about the problem solving, i think it helped to show some bad points but i have to admitt i dont know what it's acheived.....!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Back to the original question, i got Gus from Zoox nr Leeds i spoke to a lot of breeders some turned out to be puppy farm's i met Christine at Zoox a few times before we had Gus once at Crufts and i thought it was well worth the extra money paid to go to a good breeder to ensure you get a good dog. Jim.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Back to the original question, i got Gus from Zoox nr Leeds i spoke to a lot of breeders some turned out to be puppy farm's i met Christine at Zoox a few times before we had Gus once at Crufts and i thought it was well worth the extra money paid to go to a good breeder to ensure you get a good dog. Jim.. you got a dog from zoox, they wouldnt even reply to my emails, now doesnt that prove how hard it is to get a pup from a good breeder? in the end i got ice from epupz, she is fully kc, i am now looking for another pup, a male but every time i mention that i have a female pup everyone jump to the conclusion i want to breed them which is not the case at all!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted June 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 ICE - Thats does suck, hope you find your male puppy soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberianandy Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 you got a dog from zoox, they wouldnt even reply to my emails, now doesnt that prove how hard it is to get a pup from a good breeder? in the end i got ice from epupz, she is fully kc, i am now looking for another pup, a male but every time i mention that i have a female pup everyone jump to the conclusion i want to breed them which is not the case at all!! we had the same problem when we wanted to get a female lab to go with our male lab most breeders assumed we was going to breed them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 We got our first dog from a very good breeder in Cambridgeshire (no longer breeding) and our second two from a not so good breeder, but at least he did all the health tests etc (like many people new to the breed we were in a hurry to build up a racing team). Eventually we got Ria, our foundation bitch who we eventually bred to World, Spanish and UK Ch. Articblue's Chancellor producing Seiko (Ch. Dreamcatcher's The Wizard). Most of the dogs we have acquired since then have been imported (or bred from imported dogs). Ute and Chrystelle were imported from the "Baker Lake" kennel in France. Anya and Gus were imported from the "Wolf Point" kennel in Romania. Catalina was imported from the "Silverlight" kennel in Hungary. Merlin is the son of our Maverick. Trader, Tovik, Basil and Diva were sired by our Ute to friend's bitches and Summer is a Seiko granddaughter - the gift of a friend. In the autumn, Bert (Lancaster De Ciukci) arrives from Spain. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 can i ask an odd queston, why do you import so many dogs? are there nat enough in this country, or is a genetic , bood line thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 At the time we bred Ria to Chancellor, we felt strongly that the breed was going in the wrong direction in the UK - too many coatless, skinny, big-eared sprintracing dogs. We liked what we saw in Europe, so we decided to go in that direction. We didn't want to go all the way towards the heavier US show type, but wanted something in the middle. Not only that, but as some people have already noted when discussing pedigrees, it is a relatively small world out there and if you go back more than a three generations, the same few dogs start showing up in pedigrees again and again. It seemed sensible to bring in some new bloodlines from kennels that we liked. Simple as that really. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 cool have noticed on taz and toris pedigrees the very first lines on both sides are the same kennels and ch rajarani prince of darkness is on both pedigrees, and we got taz from wolverhampton and tori from sunderland lol oh and zeros brew at tupilak of altbaugh imp is on both pedigrees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiba Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 well, guess i'll post here. I got Kiba from our County Animal Shelter for $69. SCORE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Wow - Bargain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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