jules dief taz tor Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 so when is the first hurdle gonna be , nothing wrong with off the shelf , if we all reaserched everything b4 we did them , we would do feck all, we wouldnt leave the caves we were living in, we would starve cause all food is bad , etc etc , i like to live n learn , n i take all my responsibilites very seriously , for example i was stupid enough to get preg at 18 and then got told there was an extreamly high chance it would be downs syndrome, what do you do ??? i made the choice to keep it what ever , i raised him on my own for a fair while , 3 years later i got knocked up again , twins , again downs , did i get rid , nope just accepted what ever was handed to me , now im not downs neither are my parents or their parents, so do all the tests you want , occasionaly life will throw up a curve ball , its how you deal with it that counts, and if all humans ?dogs were the same what a boring life we would all lead , i didnt want to cause and argument or debate im just a bit sick of hearing if your dog didnt come from a good breeder , it is inferior, i dont bloody care, they r mine and i love them to bits , dief is a nightmare, taz is a head case and tori is a complete loony , god love variety, lmao , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 and while im in rant mode, if a dog has to do what it is breed for, to be a suitable candidate for breeding , well tell me this, how many dalmations do you see running along side carrages on your way to work , are bulldogs still expected to take down bulls to prove themselves, is your local st bernard running up mountains on the weekends to rescue ppl stranded, do all owners of border collies have heards of sheep in their backgardens , the list is bloody endless, if all *good* breeders had there way the gene pool would become very small, my mums dog came from a breeder, who. not only shows , but is a judge at crufts , who has countless champions in the blood lines blah blah blah and do you wanna know what , she is one nasty ass peice of work , she is pure evil, shes as ugly as sin , and guess what her *good breeder does, he in breeds , supprise supprise , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 and while im in rant mode, if a dog has to do what it is breed for, to be a suitable candidate for breeding , well tell me this, how many dalmations do you see running along side carrages on your way to work , are bulldogs still expected to take down bulls to prove themselves, is your local st bernard running up mountains on the weekends to rescue ppl stranded, do all owners of border collies have heards of sheep in their backgardens , the list is bloody endless, if all *good* breeders had there way the gene pool would become very small, my mums dog came from a breeder, who. not only shows , but is a judge at crufts , who has countless champions in the blood lines blah blah blah and do you wanna know what , she is one nasty ass peice of work , she is pure evil, shes as ugly as sin , and guess what her *good breeder does, he in breeds , supprise supprise , We're not talking about other breeds - their owners, breeders etc can take care of them. We are talking about Siberian Huskies which we all agree are pretty amazing and special dogs. Just because someone else, somewhere else, in some other breed, does something stupid or wrong, why on earth should we follow them? As I thought I explained earlier, we cannot test our huskies' working abilities here in the UK because we don't have the trails or the weather. That is why the showring and the breed standard is crucially important in maintaining this amazing breed as it is. Once we forget about the standard and start breeding for money alone, that's the beginning of the end for our breed. We love huskies because of all the little idiosynchrasies that make them so wonderful and so challenging and I for one would not change a thing about them. Ensuring that we keep to the breed standard and maintaining their working attitude is the only way I know to keep the breed as it is and as it should be. And, as Gemma has said, it is not the dogs that are inferior, it is the breeders. All dogs are wonderful, whether they are crossbred or pedigree, puppyfarm bred or from a good breeder. It's not the dogs that we are having a go at. It is the irresponsible commercial breeders who are producing them who are at fault. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 so therefore you are also blaming the irresponsible ppl who buy the puppys ? and can you honestly say the huskys that exist now are true to the true huskys from way back when ? i really dont care , i understand the health tests etc , but like i said taz came from tested parents i have reasearched his pedegree, and the dog is mad god love him , his tail curls too much , his legs r too long , and as a true dog lover , you should care about other breeds not just your own , you may have had 300 dogs to rehome in the last 2 and a half years, i bet there are a damm site more other breeds in other rescue centers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 so therefore you are also blaming the irresponsible ppl who buy the puppys ? and can you honestly say the huskys that exist now are true to the true huskys from way back when ? i really dont care , i understand the health tests etc , but like i said taz came from tested parents i have reasearched his pedegree, and the dog is mad god love him , his tail curls too much , his legs r too long , and as a true dog lover , you should care about other breeds not just your own , you may have had 300 dogs to rehome in the last 2 and a half years, i bet there are a damm site more other breeds in other rescue centers, I think the vast majority of people who buy puppies from BYBs etc are naive and ill-informed, not irresponsible. Unfortunately, it is only when you get into the breed that you can fully understand what it's all about. We have been in the breed 16 years and we are still learning every day. I would say that the majority of huskies today are pretty much recognisable as the same breed that was first imported to the US and Alaska in the early part of the 20th Century - for example, this is one of Seppalla's dogs, which is pretty much indistinguishable from todays' dogs: Interestingly, on the question of inbreeding - in many ways, the Siberian Husky is one of the most inbred breeds in the world. Every single one of the thousands and thousands of Sibes in the world today is descended from some 12 entire dogs and bitches amongst the original imports - and yet Sibes are one of the healthiest breeds around. On your last point, of course I care about other breeds, but there is a limit to what any one person can do and my priority is my own breed and trying to alleviate the appalling welfare crisis that we have been facing since the puppy farmers, backyard breeders and naive/greedy "pet" breeders "discovered" the breed as a source of ready income. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 my head hurts , argh , so if everybody stopped breeding , and only those who were responsible breeders etc carried on , how many years would you give the breed b4 it died out , or became so inbred that more health problems popped up ? it has happened to so many other breeds , if you look back through the years at other breeds that have been changed to fit the so called kc standards , quite a few of the dogs r now unrecognisable from the dogs they once were, i believe the kc are now trying to stop this and make the dogs once again fit for the purpose they were bred for , does that not make the whole kc hypocrits, so why anybody would want to follow what they decide is going to be their fad for the year is beyond me , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Not an odd name just the poor sod has been bred the arse off to create the next generation of over bred sibes! Sorry just want to ask a quick question.....can males sire as many litters as their human wants or is there a restriction on how many litters they can sire? I know there are restrictions with females but I'm not sure on the male side? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 my head hurts , argh , so if everybody stopped breeding , and only those who were responsible breeders etc carried on , how many years would you give the breed b4 it died out , or became so inbred that more health problems popped up ? it has happened to so many other breeds , if you look back through the years at other breeds that have been changed to fit the so called kc standards , quite a few of the dogs r now unrecognisable from the dogs they once were, i believe the kc are now trying to stop this and make the dogs once again fit for the purpose they were bred for , does that not make the whole kc hypocrits, so why anybody would want to follow what they decide is going to be their fad for the year is beyond me , What's the point in having a breed to start with if it's full of unhealthy, diseased dogs with crap conformation and structure, that barely if at all meet the breed standard? Sounds the same as letting the breed die out if you ask me!! I support breeders who breed for the betterment of the breed not for the sake of it. Do I think we have enough responsible and ethical breeders breeding? No. Do I think there are far too many crap breeders breeding? Hell yes! And they are doing NOTHING positive for the breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemma Riley Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 my head hurts , argh , so if everybody stopped breeding , and only those who were responsible breeders etc carried on , how many years would you give the breed b4 it died out , or became so inbred that more health problems popped up ? it has happened to so many other breeds , if you look back through the years at other breeds that have been changed to fit the so called kc standards , quite a few of the dogs r now unrecognisable from the dogs they once were, i believe the kc are now trying to stop this and make the dogs once again fit for the purpose they were bred for , does that not make the whole kc hypocrits, so why anybody would want to follow what they decide is going to be their fad for the year is beyond me , The breed wouldnt die out or become inbred!! Those people that breed irresponsibly probably have a smaller gene pool anyway as no decent breeder will allow them to use their dogs. You only have to look how many pedigrees Daz whiter that white appears in to know that! I think you will find that its Breed clubs that are responible for the appaling mess some breeds are in and not the KC. Its the breed clubs that change breeds and standards! The KC is just an organisation that brings all of those breed clubs together. Would you rather we didnt have an organisation and people just did what they wanted? Your argument doesnt really stand up as one of the appeals of the husky is that it has remained pretty unchanged!! Which it will not do if people keep breeding without any thought process!!!! PLEASE understand that it is NOT the dogs that people have Im bothered about its the CRAP breeders Ive put that in bold as you seem to have conviently missed it in my last post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemma Riley Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Sorry just want to ask a quick question.....can males sire as many litters as their human wants or is there a restriction on how many litters they can sire? I know there are restrictions with females but I'm not sure on the male side? Thanks There is no restriction to males Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Having read all the way through this thread, and being one to very rarely post an opinion on things, I thought I would make a change and post one I personally don't agree with the fact that all breeders should show/work their dogs. I am fully open to the fact that this would be a good indication of them being a respectable breeder, however not open to the fact that if they dont this means they are not one. There are people out there that breed Huskys (and other breeds for that matter) who do not do the working element however do know about the breed standards and I think people seem to be missing this fact. There seems to be a massive assuption in the Husky world that if you do not do this, then you dont know about them. There also seems to be a big assuption that people such as Mick who have been doing this for 16+ years know more than those who have not been doing it for as long. When in reality, yes Mick has more experience however this doesnt mean that the other breeders dont know what they are talking about. (Apologies for using you as example Mick, but dont know many that have been in it that long ) In my current workplace I work with people who have been using database structure for many years. I personally have been doing it for arounf 3-4 years, and yet I run rings around those with more experience than myself. Ridiculous comparison I know, but the point is still the same. I am just very concious of the fact that there is a lot of negativity that is pointed toward pretty much all that do it out of the world of showing and racing, and an assuption that they are all doing it wrong. I know there are a lot that do, however if I would take one thing out of the Husky world it would be the prejudgement attitude that seems to be around these days between breeders. Again yeah I know there are arseholes out there who breed them to death for nothing short of their own benefit with no thought toward the dogs, however we are well past the ages of prejudice nowadays and people should be talking about these specifics, not about a category of people as a whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemma Riley Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Ok Marc so if people are not showing and working their dogs why are they breeding?? It certaintly is not for the benefit of the breed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 There is no restriction to males Ah okies....thanks so who's responsible for letting males sire as many litters as they choose? The breed clubs or the KC ? Surely with the likes of Daz Whiter than White, the breeder in a way hasn't done anything wrong by letting him sire litters if there are no rules there to stop him from doing so other than his own ethical beliefs? Just want to point out - I know nothing about Daz Whiter Than White other than he appears on my KC certificate he may be a perfect example of the breed for all I know (having said that i doubt it) - one thing I can guess is that he lived a very "active" life and I don't mean active as in working and running Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 The breed wouldnt die out or become inbred!! Those people that breed irresponsibly probably have a smaller gene pool anyway as no decent breeder will allow them to use their dogs. You only have to look how many pedigrees Daz whiter that white appears in to know that! I think you will find that its Breed clubs that are responible for the appaling mess some breeds are in and not the KC. Its the breed clubs that change breeds and standards! The KC is just an organisation that brings all of those breed clubs together. Would you rather we didnt have an organisation and people just did what they wanted? Your argument doesnt really stand up as one of the appeals of the husky is that it has remained pretty unchanged!! Which it will not do if people keep breeding without any thought process!!!! PLEASE understand that it is NOT the dogs that people have Im bothered about its the CRAP breeders Ive put that in bold as you seem to have conviently missed it in my last post! i didnt miss it , i just cant work out , if you think the breeders r crap , you cant think much to the dogs the crap breeders r breeding cause if the breeders are crap surley they have crap dogs to breed from so there4 the puppys they sell must be crap ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 lmao @ sarah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemma Riley Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 No because they are still your dogs and part of your family, I have two badly bred sibes myself. Bella and Digger are both rescues. I do not think your dogs are crap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 I don't think anyone here thinks others dogs are crap, don't take it that way We all love our fur babies and the breed Wow this thread has got a lot of attention tonight lol Must admit has given lots to think about and i've learnt a bit as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Ok Marc so if people are not showing and working their dogs why are they breeding?? It certaintly is not for the benefit of the breed! Ah ya see we cant have it both ways ...... We are now saying that it is ok to have a Husky as a pet alone, however breeding them as such, if the breeder knows about the breed and the breeding standards is wrong. That statement in itself contradicts itself. Again I am fully open to the fact that there are people who breed who do not know about them, however by saying that people shouldnt unless they work or show their dogs, we are also saying that they dont know enough about them. This in my opinion is simply incorrect. I'll bet there are people in this world who could tell you more about a husky that any of use have ever known, and not even owned one let alone worked or shown one. OK ... Just a quick question .... What is "the benefit of the breed" because this comment keeps getting bounced around and can mean so many different things. In my opinion it is that healthy, good tempriment Siberian Huskys continue to be breed other such siberian huskies, and are loved and cared for (whether than be through working, showing, or as pets) throughout their lives by a single owner. If you can find something morally incorrect with that statement please feel free to let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 I personally don't agree with the fact that all breeders should show/work their dogs. I am fully open to the fact that this would be a good indication of them being a respectable breeder, however not open to the fact that if they dont this means they are not one. In theory you are probably right. In practice I don't know of any. Whatever is said about this, the simple and damning fact remains - in our experience with SHWA (and in our rescue work previous to SHWA) dogs bred by people who do not fit my definition of a good breeder are 100 times more likely to end up in rescue than dogs bred by people who do. For me, that is pretty much all that needs to be said. I would never claim to know everything there is to know about huskies (as I said somewhere above we are still learning every day) but you are right in one respect - experience is only useful if you learn from it. 50 years as a backyard breeder still makes you a backyard breeder - 2 years as a good breeder still makes you a good breeder. For those of us who have been involved in welfare over many years, it is not about prejudice or prejudgement, it is about bitter experience as a result of taking in dogs time and time again from the same kind of often unsuitable owners (who would have been screened out by a good breeder) bred by the same irresponsible commercial breeders. Without wishing to add to the prejudice against poor old Daz Whiter Than White (although he probably enjoyed himself at the time) he probably appears in at least 40% of the pedigrees of the dogs that come into rescue (where the pedigree is known). No more posts tonight from me - I'm off to bed!! LOL Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 i didnt mean my dogs, there is feck all wrong with my lot,and i challenge anybody to say there is , cause i will set tori on you and she can make your ears bleed at 20 meters so just try it . they r not badly bred, i ment in general, there are loads of ppl on this site who got there dogs from so called crap breeders , some are not kc , some r crosses, so all i was trying to point out is you say you dont have a problem with the dogs them selves , but the breeders , but they r the ones breeding the dogs and if they r sooooo bad they wouldnt be breeding from good quality stock would they , so therefor the puppys wouldnt be good quality either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemma Riley Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 The KC is responsible for putting a restriction in place for things like that Sarah. unfortunatley it does come down to the person that owns that dog but its easy money to stud your dog out and have no responsablitly for the consequences I have enjoyed reading other peoples point of views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 i didnt miss it , i just cant work out , if you think the breeders r crap , you cant think much to the dogs the crap breeders r breeding cause if the breeders are crap surley they have crap dogs to breed from so there4 the puppys they sell must be crap ? No, it's exactly as gemma said. I have a family dog who came from a pet store. She was, as we later discovered, from a puppy farmer. We did bought her before we knew better - our next two dogs came from reputable breeders. I don't think cherry is a crap dog and I don't love her any less than the other two - but I will never again support such a deplorable industry or bad breeder by buying a dog from an unreputable source again. I know breeders who dont show but the difference is that they get others to show dogs they bred so they know their dogs are doing well in the ring. A breeder who doesn't care about show or work ability is a breeder who is doing nothing positive for the breed IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemma Riley Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 i didnt mean my dogs, there is feck all wrong with my lot,and i challenge anybody to say there is , cause i will set tori on you and she can make your ears bleed at 20 meters so just try it . they r not badly bred, i ment in general, there are loads of ppl on this site who got there dogs from so called crap breeders , some are not kc , some r crosses, so all i was trying to point out is you say you dont have a problem with the dogs them selves , but the breeders , but they r the ones breeding the dogs and if they r sooooo bad they wouldnt be breeding from good quality stock would they , so therefor the puppys wouldnt be good quality either I am no longer going to answer you as you seem to read the opposite to what I write! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted June 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Mick i strongly disagree, and hey ive heard it all before >> dont need to go to a seminar, I know about the genetics, finding the best show bitch or her daughter and improving the lines >>> I know breeders take their breed very seriously and is their aid to modify any imperfections and keep the breed true to it's standard >>> but do you really expect me to believe a show with shampood dogs resulting in the giving out of ribbons is a fair assumption to say you are 'responsable' >> lets not revisit the BBc docu >> which has more fact than opinion...showing isn't all it's cracked up to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 In theory you are probably right. In practice I don't know of any. Whatever is said about this, the simple and damning fact remains - in our experience with SHWA (and in our rescue work previous to SHWA) dogs bred by people who do not fit my definition of a good breeder are 100 times more likely to end up in rescue than dogs bred by people who do. For me, that is pretty much all that needs to be said. The point I was trying to make more than anything, is that when anyone on this forum in the past has mentioned the possibility of breeding their animals, it is generally met with the same 'your out of order' attitude by people, when the fact is they are actually being extremely responsible by asking. This is what causes people to lack the nessesary knowledge in the first place and eventually leads to people feeling like they cannot ask questions. Dont get me wrong, its not just here. This is a problem in a lot of places around the net and in a lot of different situations, but more particularly when it is something close to peoples hearts. Sometimes it just needs people to be a little more 'Oh this person is asking a question' rather than 'oh this person is doing something extremely bad' and thats the way things seem to be everywhere nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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