ISDW Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Well i walk Amigo and Bella off leash even in the city,and i never had problems. It's all about trust (can i call it this way?) and how they are learned as pups. I didn't use the long leash method, just with treats and lot of fun when they were pups :-) I think that all is about the owners patiency and it's necesarry to understand your dog, especially the Siberian Husky. Sorry, but I find that quite offensive - well, offensive is probably too strong a word - patronising maybe. All of us sibe owners who won't let our dogs off the lead don't have the patience to train our dogs? I used to let mine off the lead when they were pups, loads of training, obedience classes, lots of treats, calling them back, giving them treats etc, etc. Then when they got to a certain age, off they went and wouldn't come back, end of off lead time. It is in the breed to run and not come back. I could let mine off lead now and I know that 99% of the time they would come back - but its that one time they don't come back and get shot or run over etc that makes it all not worth it. I hope that you never do have any problems, but unfortunately there have been too many stories of people who thought their sibe was different, until the day they had that terrible accident. OP, please, please don't just listen to people on here, do your research into the breed, you will see that most husky experts say never to let the dog off lead in an unenclosed area. I'm really sorry, but you should have researched it before you got the dog, and you would have realised the breed that you were getting. I think its very sad as I love to see them running off lead but, its just one of the idiosyncracies of this breed that we all love so much. Don't take the chance with your dog's life please. You say there are no roads, sibes can run for miles, trust me, they will find the road. When the dog is older, get a harness and work him, then he can run safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Ive learnt something about the whole lead vs off lead thing and that is - The breed doesnt really come into the matter, what matters more is if you are the decision maker (leader). Obviously thats not ALL thats involved. Our behaviourist has 6 sibes and all of them she can take on a walk and have them off lead and on lead, with no problems. Ok she is a behaviourist/trainer so she has experience behind her but she has also come from tough times. The sibes she has today all had behaviour problems like running away, getting out of the garden, showed no respect to her or anyone else, etc etc etc and she also had the help of another behaviourist who guided her to being a leader to her dogs and from there her interest for training was sparked and the rest is history. She explained to me what training she had done with her pack, which was basically be a pack leader. Everyone has different thoughts on what a pack leader is and does so I will let you know what I mean when I say pack leader. A pack leader, IMO, is the one or few: That control the food (incl. treats) That control the current situation (e.g. playtime, someone new coming in, meeting new dogs and people on walks) That control the hunt (aka. the walk) Can remain calm and strong minded in difficult situations Provides protection to the entire pack Putting it like that makes it sound ALOT easier than it is, but becasue our behaviourist has shown her dogs this (along with alot of recall training and general obediance training), her dogs understand that it she is the decision maker not them, she makes the rules not them, and she is in control not them, and this is how she can trust them not to run off and to remain close to her at all times. This is not the sort of thing that she has done and has never had to do again, she does training with them all the time on a one to one and a group basis. If she has one weak moment, the dogs will take their advantage and so once she is strong again, it's up to her to remind them who is leader. There is ALOT more involved with all of this and I can't remember it all off the top of my head! Basically its no easy task but it can be done if you know what to do. I personally don't recommend any dog being off the lead but thats mainly due to past experiences. Gizmo, Marley and Bandit used to be let off the lead but as soon as the 'teen' stage hit that was it, Gizmo startes to chase everything and one day nearly got kicked by a horse and since then Ive not had them off the lead! It was a hard learned lesson and I look back now and wondered why I let them off in the first place when I clearly wasnt training them properly, but it could have been alot worse, he could have ran off into the road and I would have never see him again or the horse could have kicked him easily and he would have been majorly injured and may not have lived No way would I want to risk that ever happening again! Its all down to peoples personal preferance, some can trust their dogs off lead, some cant and some people shouldn't have their dogs off the lead but they let the dogs off anyway. I would like to point out to everyone that this is my own personal opinion and I don't want to fall into an argument about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardifboi Posted January 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 thanks everyone for your insight! very appreciated.. when we go on our route Zeus always stays close and keeps looking aroundto see where i am then wil lcatch up with me, he loves to run up to other dogs then he gets scared and just runs away from them.. he hasnt shown any sign of wanting to catch a bird yet.. hes perfect allthe way round just until we get to the car where i usually lead him then he jumps in the car.. so around the walk hes perfect just putting the lead on him really.. maybe today was an odd day i dont know.. alot of you are saying they will run for miles away from me.. he hasnt shown any sign of that yet.. never wanders off where he cant see me.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahNukka&Shadow Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Sorry, but I find that quite offensive - well, offensive is probably too strong a word - patronising maybe. All of us sibe owners who won't let our dogs off the lead don't have the patience to train our dogs? I used to let mine off the lead when they were pups, loads of training, obedience classes, lots of treats, calling them back, giving them treats etc, etc. Then when they got to a certain age, off they went and wouldn't come back, end of off lead time. It is in the breed to run and not come back. I could let mine off lead now and I know that 99% of the time they would come back - but its that one time they don't come back and get shot or run over etc that makes it all not worth it. I hope that you never do have any problems, but unfortunately there have been too many stories of people who thought their sibe was different, until the day they had that terrible accident. OP, please, please don't just listen to people on here, do your research into the breed, you will see that most husky experts say never to let the dog off lead in an unenclosed area. I'm really sorry, but you should have researched it before you got the dog, and you would have realised the breed that you were getting. I think its very sad as I love to see them running off lead but, its just one of the idiosyncracies of this breed that we all love so much. Don't take the chance with your dog's life please. You say there are no roads, sibes can run for miles, trust me, they will find the road. When the dog is older, get a harness and work him, then he can run safely. THANKYOU KAREN! Finally someone said exactly what I was thinking all the way through reading this thread!! Snowspirit please do not say things like that to new and impressionable owners it gives them completely to wrong idea about the breed and may lead them to put their husky in danger becuase of it! Cardifboi you really really need to do research into the breed, think exactly what they have been bred to do for centuries! RUN! They are very specifically bred to think for themsleves and to question orders given to them as this is what will keep them and the rest of their team alive when on the trail, if they sense that an order given is wrong then they will ignor it! Now this can be abit of a pain for our pet huskies as they have the same tendancy to ignor a command just because they dont want to do it, but like everyone has said this is the husky breed and like it or not thats what you have taken on for better or worse! But dont loose hope or patients you just have to find ways around this problem as has been surgested keep working on your recall as you never know when this might save your dogs life if he got away from you be accident but other than that a very very long lead is best and then like Karen has said soon as hes developed enough to pull heavy things get him in a harness, get yourself a scooter and the pair of you will have a blast! Sorry if any of this comes across as patronising but I cant help myself when people think their husky is different from the millions of others out there and then they just become one of the statistics in the RTA goverment figures!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 added 2 rep amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardifboi Posted January 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 i understand that they were bred to run but cant blaim me expecting Zeus to eventually be fine off a lead because there are quite a large number of people who can let there huskies off.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 nobody blames u for expectin it if u hear stories ov ppl bein able 2 let their sibes off then ur gonna think great i can let mine off too - but its not without its hard work training and patetince that u can do this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eskimo Huskies Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Hi there Cardifboi, Will try to help you here mate, but NO guarantees ! Not to sure for definite, but it seems that your little boy Zeus, feels like he wants to walk some more when he gets back to the car ! As you said he`s not running away from you and disappearing right out of sight, as such. He just keeps moving away from you, because he knows the walk has ended and it`s time to go home in the car. Go back to the basics in training in a VERY SAFE PLACE, as you have said you are going to do, with LOTS of the treats that he likes and using a recall you will use ALL THE TIME, like "Come, Here or Zeus" etc. Take your time, practice over and over, day in - day out, one week, two weeks, the longer the better ! This may sound stupid, but, try also using the words "CAR" & "HOME" and placing lots of treats in the car and the home for Zeus ! It would seem that Zeus is not wanting to go home in the car, because he is wanting more time and walks in the Forestry. Now for the word CAR, he will pick it up and associate it with being a good thing because it has loads of treats in it - What ever you use is up to you - His favourite food or Raw Chicken wings, choose what you know he will love to eat it ! We use loads of 1 inch cubes of cheap Raw Braising Steak, from the supermarket, sealed in a Tupperware box - Our car is like a Butchers LOL. When he jumps into the car, give lots of cuddles and praise, like, Well done, Zeus came to the car, and reward with the treats or meats. And now for the word HOME, this is a little bit more tricky but we have found a way of cracking it and it works for us, but you have to work with Zeus a bit ! When you are out walking and training Zeus on his collar and lead, start using the word, home, and as soon as you have said it, walk home ! Walk ALL the way home, KEEP repeating and using the word, home Zeus, whilst you are walking. We get funny looks from people when we are doing it, but you get used to it and don`t care when people look at you as if your mad LOL. When you get home, give lots of cuddles and praise, like, Well done, Zeus came home, and reward with the treats or meats. NOW AFTER THAT HARD WORK AND OVER TIME THE WORDS CAR AND HOME WILL BE ASSOCIATED WITH SOME NICE FOOD ! Be persistent and keep to the same words for every command. Every time he gets it right, give lots of cuddles and praise and don`t forget the treats or meat ! Be patient with him and just keep doing it all, over and over. Don`t never get sick of it because the more time you put into it the better it should be for you and Zeus. When you are VERY confident to try the forestry again with Zeus, proceed with CAUTION ! We recommend you do it as well a few times first at the forestry ON a collar and lead ! All OUR best mate. We wish it all goes well. PS. If all this fails - We would recommend for you to let him have his daily runs OFF lead in a FULLY ENCLOSED, HIGH FENCED, Tennis Court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahNukka&Shadow Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 i understand that they were bred to run but cant blaim me expecting Zeus to eventually be fine off a lead because there are quite a large number of people who can let there huskies off.. No I dont blame you at all and I know as a new husky owner its a sad fact to face! I'm a relativly new owner too my girls only 7months and when I did my research and read all the many warnings about not letting them off I was gutted as I really wanted to be able to run with her and take her to the beach and let her go in the sea and all the cool things you can do with a dog, having said that to say there are "a large number of people who can let their huskies off" is a little nieve if you think of how many huskies there are out there in the world! In my experience there are two kinds of off lead huskies the incredibley well trained and the incredibley lucky to be alive and there is a very very fine line between the two! As I said before deffinatley keep working on your recall as its very very important and if you feel confident with him then test him, take him to somewhere completely enclosed let him off and keep calling him back to you for treats and things so he doesnt just associate come back to you with going home and if your successful then very well done as it will have been through your effort and patients that he recalls so well but do please also remember that if he doesnt come back to you EVERY SINGLE TIME, UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES then you really cant risk him being off lead can you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Sorry, but I find that quite offensive - well, offensive is probably too strong a word - patronising maybe. All of us sibe owners who won't let our dogs off the lead don't have the patience to train our dogs? I used to let mine off the lead when they were pups, loads of training, obedience classes, lots of treats, calling them back, giving them treats etc, etc. Then when they got to a certain age, off they went and wouldn't come back, end of off lead time. It is in the breed to run and not come back. I could let mine off lead now and I know that 99% of the time they would come back - but its that one time they don't come back and get shot or run over etc that makes it all not worth it. I hope that you never do have any problems, but unfortunately there have been too many stories of people who thought their sibe was different, until the day they had that terrible accident. OP, please, please don't just listen to people on here, do your research into the breed, you will see that most husky experts say never to let the dog off lead in an unenclosed area. I'm really sorry, but you should have researched it before you got the dog, and you would have realised the breed that you were getting. I think its very sad as I love to see them running off lead but, its just one of the idiosyncracies of this breed that we all love so much. Don't take the chance with your dog's life please. You say there are no roads, sibes can run for miles, trust me, they will find the road. When the dog is older, get a harness and work him, then he can run safely. I fully agree isdw a good post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 good post paul and ivan added 2 rep when ever i had bing offlead n i sed home he used 2 run home (hes not a husky) but he dont get let off anymore cuz hes too slow n likes 2 have a wander now hes older Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shedalot Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Sorry, but I find that quite offensive - well, offensive is probably too strong a word - patronising maybe. All of us sibe owners who won't let our dogs off the lead don't have the patience to train our dogs? I used to let mine off the lead when they were pups, loads of training, obedience classes, lots of treats, calling them back, giving them treats etc, etc. Then when they got to a certain age, off they went and wouldn't come back, end of off lead time. It is in the breed to run and not come back. I could let mine off lead now and I know that 99% of the time they would come back - but its that one time they don't come back and get shot or run over etc that makes it all not worth it. I hope that you never do have any problems, but unfortunately there have been too many stories of people who thought their sibe was different, until the day they had that terrible accident. OP, please, please don't just listen to people on here, do your research into the breed, you will see that most husky experts say never to let the dog off lead in an unenclosed area. I'm really sorry, but you should have researched it before you got the dog, and you would have realised the breed that you were getting. I think its very sad as I love to see them running off lead but, its just one of the idiosyncracies of this breed that we all love so much. Don't take the chance with your dog's life please. You say there are no roads, sibes can run for miles, trust me, they will find the road. When the dog is older, get a harness and work him, then he can run safely. +1 Karen. Nicely put. Never have I let mine off leash intentionally, ever. I couldn't live with myself if anything ever happened to her. It's bad enough when she gets out on her own by accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 My god - PLEASE for god sake read up on the breed!!! Any book / website will tell you the same thing. I used to let my boys run free, until one day they ran and ran until they came to a main road i thank god that someone was talking past and grabbed them - ever since that day they do not get let off unless in an enclosed area. I've done countless hours on recall training with my boys - when they run and play in the field they do so on a long line or I run them on a scooter. If you wanted a dog to let off lead that would come every time when you called it, you should have got a Lab. If you insist on letting him off lead - make sure you put in weeks / maybe even months of training so you are sure that he will come back when called - there's just been a post in rainbow bridge about a dog that escaped from the front door and ran and ran to the main road Please please put in as much training as you possibly can. They really are not like any other breed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 added 2 rep saz i cudnt agree more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazz Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Huskies are, and will continue to be, one of the most beautiful breeds. They are, and will continue to be, one of the most mis-understood breeds. Every reputable breeder that I have ever talked to, has always told me, "Never let your Husky off lead." It's not a matter of training, it's not a matter of loyalty, it's not a matter of patience, it's a matter of instinct. At any given moment, without any indication or warning, something can trigger the instinct to run in a Husky. When that happens, that's it. They are going to run. For the safety of my best friend, and for my financial health, I only let my Husky off lead in a confined area. I knew this going into the deal, I'm fine with it, my dog is healthy and happy. So, I too agree with ISDW's post. Do some research, keep a lead on that buddy of yours. Just think how you would feel if he did run, and was lost, injured, or worse, killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 heres a couple ov experiences for u - caprice hope u dont mind me usin this if u do tell me ill remove it - me and caprice were walkin dogs 1 day when they started playin Pagans lead went under Blaze so we tried 2 untangle um which resulted in pagans lead being dropped n her shootin off in2 the road when a car was coming luckily the car stopped (others havent been so lucky ) but she kept runnin it took us a good while 2 get her bk - another example - blaze i dropped his lead he shot off if he hadnt ov stopped 2 sniff summin i dont think i wud ov got him back - another time he got out a left open gate he ran up a fairly main road past at least 5 closes we were lucky there were no cars and a dog for him 2 sniff otherwise i dont think he wud ov stopped please take all this in b4 thinking about letting him off again without doing some training with him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 i understand that they were bred to run but cant blaim me expecting Zeus to eventually be fine off a lead because there are quite a large number of people who can let there huskies off.. OK, 2 things ver wrong with your comments above .... Firstly its not so much that they are bred to run in the slightest ..... It is their instict prey drive, which has nothing at all to do with what they are bred for, its an insticnt this specific animal has. You have people on here that have trained to walk off lead ... but believe me, they will only run off once before they change their mind.. some never will, some will be lucky and have a husky they can teach to be offlead, however they are the minority not the majority. If your has started to run off KEEP IT ON LEAD .... Training offlead is risky .... training offlead when you know they run off is irresponsible. Secondly, there are not a large number of people who can let their huskies offlead, there are a very very small minority that can.... Even the ones who do let them off will tell you that much. Also, I would suggest you seriuosly start researching, and more to the point reading properly. I say this because the above comments you made were after people have already mentioned what I just have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valkyries Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 well said ISDW and sarah, my dogs will never ever go off lead unless we are in a secure area, we are lucky here we have a large field with a 6ft fence around thats the only place they get off lead. you can spend every hour of every day training your sib to walk off lead but you will never have the guarantee that one minute we all fear won't happen to you, thats all it takes one minute to loose your baby, all i ask is it worth taking that chance ??????? with the long leads we can get your dogs can still run. I know my dogs are my family and to precious to me to take the chance of that one minute happening as if it does you my not get another chance, but your chose BE SAFE OR TRUST IN LUCK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigrunner Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 OP - Did you actually do any research before you got a Husky? You seem quite suprised your dog is displaying typical traits, which makes me wonder how much you knew about the breed? Presumably the breeder just took your money and ran as opposed to offering advice, information and discussing a dog that suits your lifestyle? I ran a puppy playgroup for 10 + years, what was interesting was how resposive and well behaved many sibe pups that came through were. They picked up commands really quickly and well and would easily outshine any lab pup etc. This sadly lulls many owners and they think that the breeders and people who warn them of the dangers of off lead etc are just 'lazy', stupid' or 'can't train dogs'. By the 9 to 12 month stage, the sibe pup would often be out of control, whilst the lab pup would be settling into a fabulous pet dog, happy to often sit and gaze out of an open front door, or just mooch around the garden We have also always owned non sibes, usually gundog breeds and these have always been well trained with good recall and been constantly off the lead. I think I probably know quite a bit about training, I always teach recalls, however I don't let my sibes off. Sometimes it is the gundog people it is hardest to explain to about training Sibes, because they think all dogs are the same. Just to pick up on a point Marc made, it is about prey drive but it is also to do with running in a straight line. Most dogs run in circles, watch dogs in parks etc and you will see this, therefore when one of them gets loose it is more likely to circle, turn, and become interested in something nearby. Sibes run very fast in a straight line, it is hard to turn them, once running their attention stays very focused. In this small country with so many roads, this means they can cover a great mileage in a very short time and this is what gets them into trouble. It is not about pack leadership, nor respect or lack of it, nor even training, occasionlly you will get a responsive sibe who can be let off, but is it really worth risking your precious dog, to satisfy your ego, if all that happens along the way is that you find your sibe cannot be trusted off lead and is now dead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 added 2 rep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 I agree rigrunner - added to rep Nice to see you posting as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowSpirit Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Sorry, but I find that quite offensive - well, offensive is probably too strong a word - patronising maybe. All of us sibe owners who won't let our dogs off the lead don't have the patience to train our dogs? I used to let mine off the lead when they were pups, loads of training, obedience classes, lots of treats, calling them back, giving them treats etc, etc. Then when they got to a certain age, off they went and wouldn't come back, end of off lead time. It is in the breed to run and not come back. I could let mine off lead now and I know that 99% of the time they would come back - but its that one time they don't come back and get shot or run over etc that makes it all not worth it. I hope that you never do have any problems, but unfortunately there have been too many stories of people who thought their sibe was different, until the day they had that terrible accident. OP, please, please don't just listen to people on here, do your research into the breed, you will see that most husky experts say never to let the dog off lead in an unenclosed area. I'm really sorry, but you should have researched it before you got the dog, and you would have realised the breed that you were getting. I think its very sad as I love to see them running off lead but, its just one of the idiosyncracies of this breed that we all love so much. Don't take the chance with your dog's life please. You say there are no roads, sibes can run for miles, trust me, they will find the road. When the dog is older, get a harness and work him, then he can run safely. Look, i wrote my opinion.It will be nice if you had the ocasion to see my dogs on walks, you would see about what i am talking about. Sure it is dog to dog..not every dog is the same. But please don't try to tell me that I am irresponsible, or i have not many experience, becouse this is not right. I don't want to start a dispute, i just told my opinion and my experience with my dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 i will go the same way as nix did (v.good post nix) and give you some examples, all 1st hand experiences i'v had with kira. we got her as an older pup, she was out walking at about 4.5 months, which is late. we took her out at about 6 months with the dog next door, who was very good off lead and always came back, kira being a puppy with a new playfriend, folled him everywhere, so not a problem. I became more confident. so a few days later i let her off somewhere which i thought was secure, fencing on one side, river on the other (doesnt like going in water lol) i only did this because the time before gave me confidence, and i was naive. Well turns out there was a tiny hole in the fence that seperated the field from the railway track, she saw & heard rabbits, and found this hole... she was up on the trank tracks chasing them.... after 5 minutes of me crying hyserically and rick picking her up and bringing her down, she was back with us, smiling away. 5 minutes after that... a train goes by at full speed... *gulp* close call we've never let her off lead since, however it doesnt mean she hasnt ran free. I was walking her in a harness once when she slipped it on a main road, she looked at me and ran, right along one of the busiest roads in ipswich!! there were buses and cars flying past, by some miracle she stayed on the path, and didnt get hit. but the only reason she stopped is to greet a guide dog (i apolagised profusely). Oh and just so you know, not many people are willing to help you in that situation unfortunately. we now always walk her on a collar, and that night we took out insurance. then a few weeks ago i was walking her in the park when she suddenly legged it. I had put the lead on the tag ring, not the collar, and as she'd pulled it'd gave way. off she ran, i burst into tears again (main road outside the park) and rick only got her back because of a man with a border collie who caught her when she stopped to say hello. we now stitch our details onto collars, just in case. as you can see I have been reduced to tears no less than 3 times when terrified for my baby girls life. she just wanted to run, or hunt. And each time was a VERY close call. the 1st time because i got too confident after one playtime off lead, the other 2 accidents (on my part) im so worried for her safety now that in this weather she has 2 leads on, one in my hand and one in the belt hole of my jeans, just in case i slip and drop the main lead. there is always a back up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 added 2 rep sid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 and one back to ya lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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