... ther's an end to this rope ...

[Removed #5]

... and Sasha's just about gotten to it.

I've written before that she's food aggressive - well, she tried to take another chunk out of me last night, and my patience is getting to be severely limited - which, I realize isn't helping things.

This morning we're at a contest of wills - she spent the night outside and is at the door and wants in. All she has to do to get in is set when I tell her to - and she knows set, down, lay down, stay (though she doesn't want to most of the time) - but she wants in <period>.

The last time she bit me I talked to the two no-kill shelters here (well, within 200 miles of me) and they won't even consider her because of the food aggression. If I take her to the shelter in Alpine, they'll put her down immediately for the same reason.

I have three choices:

• Let her continue to play the alpha
  
• Turn her loose
  
• Put her down
  

and none of these is acceptable to me and as I said, I'm reaching the end of my rope!

If she keeps it up, I'll end up putting her on a short lead on the cargo trailer out back. She'll have water and shade - and nothing! else until she decides to get her act together. Cruel, yep, probably - crueler than putting her down ... arguable.

There are two things that have gotten to me and in the year that she's been here, I see no improvement in either of them - and I need some help, ideas, suggestions:

• Obviously the food aggression.
  
• She continues to use the kitchen floor as her preferred dumping ground.
  

I can take her out for a walk, she'll take a poo at her stop out back, then come in the house and within 15 minutes do it again. I've cleaned up the floor, used the vinegar routine and no joy. She's on a lead that let's her come in and go out - there's no excuse or reason, that I can see, for the constant shitting on the kitchen floor. I'm at wits end.

Last evening, both she and Avalanche were eating and she nipped at Avalanche, first time I've seen that except as correction when she's tired of his play. I said no and walked over to pick the food bowl up - to give them a chance to settle down and she growled and bit the bowl - it would have been my hand but I moved quicker than she did.

She'll eat from my hand with no problem. I can even close my fist around what I have in my hand and there's no problem. I can normally pick up the food bowl without a problem ... but I'm getting real tired of not being sure.

I just walked over to the door, told her to set and I can see her back legs, it's like she's thinking about it but isn't going to --- and I'm sorry, but at this point in time --- she's going to.

I'm wandering, frustrated and more than a bit angry. Suggestions??

[LuvMyKai]

It must be really difficult for you, but if possible, keep trying i mean she was not born with the food aggression so eventhough it may be very very difficult, there must be a way to solve this. As for the options you feel you have, there is another one, be consistent and show her that YOU are in charge and that she has to listen to you, believe me i ahve seen some very very bad cases of food aggression but with hard work and training this has been sorted. I think the toileting problem can also be solved if you continue to walk her and ensure she relieves herself outside, she will soon realise that she absolutely has no need to do it inside. I dont know if this would neccessarily work for you but one of the food aggressions cases i saw, we had to go back to basics. Just started by walking around him whilst eating, wewhen he was ok with this, we began crouching near his food and slowly throwing food in again, once he was fine with this we held the food in our hand until we reached INSIDE the bowl and then put it in,this got him used to having hands around his bowl. We then began taking food slowly out of his bowl which startled him a little bit but we just praised him when he let us take it out and did so in a very calm manner. We then started slowly moving his bowl away from him until we were able to completely pick it up and he just waited. It took soem time but it was wasy to see the progress ands he is so much better now, we can easily go down pick up his bowl and move it and he just follows you and waits to be given the bowl back. I understand this is easier said than done but please dont give up, when and i say when because i know you can do it, when you have fixed this problem, you will be so happy with yourself and Sasha will be a much happier dog especially as she will still be with you. Good Luck and let us know how you get on

[Emma]

You sound a bit like me yesterday, very very pi**** off, albeit for different reasons (Bear's decided this week to return to carpet shredding, my landing carpet has been torn in half! and Ice resumed his daily pull everything out of the sink and ignore me when I tell him "DOWN!", which is the part that got to me the most. Together I just had enough and well, 'erupted like a volcano'. Oddly, they've both been fantastically behaved today Which proves they are capable!)

Do I remember correctly that you were trying the nilif method with Sascha? Did you get any results at all? Even inconsistently?

Do you have food down in bowls all the time? (I've got a feeling I've heard you say something about this before, but can't remember exactly) If so, I'd definately have it out of reach until YOU decide it's meal time, which would also back up the nilif method's theory. It may also help with the squabbling. If you don't leave bowl down then just disregard my last comment! I feed Ice and Bear separately most of the time as it's frankly a pain in the butt having to stand over them whilse eating the whole time. Bear paws around in the bowl and plays with it rather than eat it, while Ice chows down his as quickly as he can and then looks for Bear's as his next meal. to be fair to him, over time he's gotten used to the rules (we got him in January this year) and he's now fine most of the time around the others when eating. He usually hangs back and watches, waiting for them to walk off before finishing off their leftovers. Something he'd never of done a few months back. I also don't mess about with him when he's eating too much and if I do there's always a warning from me first (I don't really need to as his food aggression was dog based not human). Bones and treats are occasional and they each sit side by side, with me issueing commands to each before giving. They always get one each so they realise they don't need to compete for food, it will always be given fairly. That said, the main difference between Sascha and Ice (apart from the different form of food aggression) is that there's no clear Alpha here, Bear and Ice seem to be on an equal footing. Odd as Bear is 14 months and Ice 12 months, plenty of time to start making a play. It's not happened yet........ So bearing that in mind brings me back to the theory that nilif combined with positive re-enforcements should of been somewhat effective. Perhaps the struggle for leadership is just going to take a little longer than normal as Sascha sounds particularly stubborn. Not knowing her back story doesn't help you much either.

With regards to the toileting. I wonder if she can smell the odour of her previous mishaps and therefore has decided that this must be the right place to go. There are special cleaners to remove pet odours but I have no idea what brands you'd get in the states. It certainly sounds like it's also becoming a bit of a habit now, which makes things more awkward.

Perhaps [MENTION=2703]Staceybob[/MENTION], or [MENTION=107]Bec[/MENTION], may be able to throw some suggestions your way. They're both much more knowledgable than me! Whatever happens Al, :grouphug:know that I'm here to offer you support and sound off too if you need me. Take care, xxx

[Rosemary]

I have absolutely no idea Al, I can't offer advice as I have never had to deal with the same problem Just wanted to say, I can't believe it has been a year already time sure does fly.....

[simhauu]

I haven't had to deal with this either (though Ghost used to poo in the hall for a time, what helped was to keep him in our bedroom with us and after a time it stopped but that's all).

What I do think is that she does that on the kitchen floor on purpose. To show you that she doesn't care or is just very, very insecure. The thing is, it's usually said that dogs don't do their business where they eat or sleep. For the time being I would restrict her from the kitchen.

Food aggression: Again I have not had to deal with this but I think that a routine of 5 commands is too much. Ghost usually has to sit and wait (till I get clean water) and then he can eat. I second the comment of not having the food bowl always out, if you do.

What is your feeding routine, like who gets to eat first? Is it Sascha and Avalanche, or you? If it is not you, it should be, as in the pack the top one eats first. I would make a routine of having her sit and wait (about 2 meters away from you) while you place the food bowl down on the ground to your legs not to hers. If at any point you see her getting up, take the bowl back up (you can but don't have to accompany it with a sharp sound that will catch her by surprise like loud A A A or something). It won't get better immediately, and maybe my ideas won't help at all but don't give up, please.

Sending lots of positive energy!

[Removed #5]

[MENTION=6960]simhauu[/MENTION] -- no, no, I was say that she knows those commands. The norm at chow time is to sit and wait till I set the bowl down, then I release them. The biggest problem I have with the food aggression is that it's not consistent. One day I can take something from her without a problem and the next she wants to take my head off! I rarely have the "challenges" with a dog that I've had with this one ... [MENTION=1262]Rosemary[/MENTION] ... I'm wrong, I got her Mar 8th of this year. It just feels like a lot longer!! [MENTION=2703]Staceybob[/MENTION] ... I'm not paying your airfare to let you evaluate her, but have you any suggestion ....????

[Elyse]

God, Al, I wish I could help but I don't know what to do....never been in that situation. It seems like you've tried everything, too.

But...and I'm not sure if this has been suggested already...but have you tried the NILF (NILIF) method? It worked on my boy when he was guarding his food when I first got him, though he never bit me...just growled.

Is it possible Sasha could be very insecure and not trying to be the Alpha?

[simhauu]

Have you tried feeding them separate then? Sascha first, so she doesn't feel as insecure with Avalanche. Or showing her what you expect from her with Avalanche. This one pup picked a lot from Ghost, in the few hours it spent at our place (at circa 4 months it didn't know sit or lay down).

As for challenges, well she's a woman. The thing with taking away something is, I for one wouldn't like it either. In fact one waiter had already heard from me that I don't appreciate my drink being taken, in a nice way though. The guy was firm though, and took it away anyway...

[Staceybob]

I'm not sure what your current food ritual is, but this is how I usually handle food aggression.

Get the dog to sit. The dog must remain in the sit for now.

Put the food bowl on the floor.

Put your hand in the food bowl and push the kibble about whilst the dog is sitting a good distance from the bowl.

When you're ready, invite the dog to join you at the bowl. Most dogs will back off at first and will be a bit unsure. They wont like that your hand is there, but eventually they will come to eat from the bowl. For the first time, just gently push the kibble, don't make any sudden movements as you don't want to trigger the aggression. Avoid touching the dog at this point.

Keep doing this over and over again.

Eventually you can move your hand more and lightly touch the dogs muzzle whilst they're eating, but only do it when you feel it's safe to do so.

As for the pooing it sounds like behavioural and like they're just used to doing it. The best way to handle it is having them on a line so when they go to do it, you can lightly correct them and move them to where they should be doing it.

I hope this helps.

Stacey xxx

[Bec]

Al, is she crate trained? Have you ever seen a behaviourist to assist you with her behaviour?

I wouldn't say without seeing her that she is being dominant or displaying rank behaviour, there are many reasons why dogs appear to be disobedient. I don't think dogs intentionally act in a way that upsets us, dogs do things for two reasons - to gain reward or avoid correction. If you put her on a tie out and leave her there with nothing she will never learn what behaviour is and isn't appropriate.

Dogs that are more difficult to live with or train for whatever reason can really try our patience and it can be extremely hard to bond with a dog you are having a hard time with and end up disliking because of their behaviour. It can also cloud our view and make it hard to see what other options there are. If you have a reputable behaviourist in your area I strongly suggest having a behaviour consult done so you have someone with a subjective and experienced view assessing her and you to see what is going on.

For feeding I'd strongly recommend feeding her on her own, if she's resource guarding it's most likely she feels insecure and having another dog there can increase that feeling. I'd also suggest reading this article and implementing the program into feeding times. It will benefit you outside of meal times too

http://k9pro.com.au/services/the-triangle-of-temptation/

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

oh dear AL. I have issues with Angel with bones, but I avoid them by simply not giving them bones. obviously this wont work for you since you have to feed her lol.

We're here for support. x

[mydiamond]

Oh my the peeing-on-the-kitchen behavior is still there? =\ that's frustrating.. I remember you posted about that many many months ago =\

Actually, I have the same problem with Diamond. I don't know why, but every.single.time he went to my garage, he WILL pee. No matter how long I take him for a walk, if I let my guard down and he got himself into the garage he WILL pee tried everything from bug sprays to glass cleaners but nothing works. And I mean nothing. I also tried other training methods that has nothing to do with chemical substances =\ So now Diamond is banned from the garage. I think that's a faster, less tiring way to deal with this persistent behavior. Whenever he's chilling in the family room I'll keep the door to the garage closed and keep an eye on him--because if he can't get to the garage he'll pee at the door! weird dog LOL

is there any door that connects the rest of the house with the kitchen? Maybe you can keep the door closed or tell Sasha "no" every time she tried to walked into the kitchen? I can't help much with the food aggression, but I think banning her entirely from the kitchen might worth a try. At a glance this decision might sound lazy and cruel but the thing is, from what I read, I think Sasha actually knows where to go potty. Like Diamond, there's just *something* about that specific spot that made her want to pee on it every single time. I gave up trying to figure out what in the world is so interesting about my garage, so unfortunately no dogs allowed in the garage now =\

[Removed #5]

[MENTION=107]Bec[/MENTION] I'm trying not to laugh - you *do* have to remember where I live!! The only behaviourists I could find anywhere near here are of the garden "Beat the **** out of them till they behave!" variety. Google suggest that the nearest listed behaviourists are going to be in the vicinity of 500 miles away - not a viable option.

Not crate trained - well, honestly I don't know, don't have one and have never used one. Could probably not use one effectively.

When I have the front door open - which is most of the time, day and night - both dogs are on 30 foot leads, that let's them come and go as they wish / need.

Since I spend the better part of the day on the computer - sometimes playing, sometimes trying to do some work - she's content to lay behind me. It may be several hours and she doesn't move. They both get together to get me up in the morning and she'll let me know when it's 6:00 PM ( evening walk time ). The mess in the kitchen is an irritation - I don't like but it's not harmful (okay, unhygienic but not physically harmful). She knows the kitchen is off limits during the day - but can't seem to extend that to night time - and there's no door between the living room and the kitchen - about a 6 foot wide archway.

What really has me snowed is the food bit. She hasn't eaten today and seemingly isn't interested. I called her from the ( diagonally opposite ) corner where she also sleeps and gave her a treat for come and sit ( almost never fails on these, not stubborn ). I actually took the treat out of her mouth after she had her teeth on it, looked at it and gave it back to her - no problem, no big deal.

If I could see what it is that triggers the possession I could work with it, but I haven't been able to so far. 99.9% of the time I can put a bowl of food down and both dogs will scarf what they want with no aggression or possession. Most of the time I can pick up the bowl while they're eating and all I get is this "Hey! Whatcha doing!??" look - but once in a blue moon she wants to take my hand off!

Normally she's one of the most gentle dogs I've seen. She'll come over and just barely nudge me when she wants attention - which is really very seldom - there's no jumping up ( in fact she seems to prefer to have all four on the ground ) and except for walk time there's no talking / barking. She'll let me know she wants out during the day ( if the doors closed ) by sitting by the door. Obviously that doesn't work when I'm asleep .....

Part of my problem with her is that she is generally so very easy going that I'm not worried. But there's still this niggling - she's bit me three times, what's going to cause her to bite again - and I have absolutely no blithering idea!!!!

[yukongirl]

Al, I feel your pain. I started a tread on my dog Yukon who is food aggressive in another section. Last Saturday Yukon lost her ever loving mind and went crazy because I dropped a pecan on the flood. I reached down thinking I saw the pecan and she took a good bite out of my hand and wasn't finished she went after my elbow. I can't touch her food dish, she is like emma's dog Bear, she puts her paws around her food dish. I bought Yukon from what I would call a back yard breeder at 3 months old, they had one food dish for 4 puppies. She is now 31/2yrs going on 4yrs old. I came here for help. In the last week she gets nothing without sitting or giving me her paw for whatever I have.

Yukon is my 3rd husky and the only one food aggressive, and like you everything is miles away, I live in a very rural area. The only place local, and I talked to him years ago, used a cattle prog on dogs, and than I would have to pay him $2000.00 for this, no way!!! He maybe out of business after Katrina. I have no behaviourist local, all out of state. I did speak to one long distance and she thinks that Yukon is insure,and she would have to evaluate Yukon, she may not get her out of this, but teach me ways not to get bit. She takes food from my hand no problem, but don't touch something she thinks that is her's. She took a pack of gum from me, had it on the sofa and would think that was the last food for her between life and death.

I know when she is in this attack mode, and right now I just back away tired of getting bit. For the last week she get nothing unless she works for it, like a sit or shake. I'm not willing or going to give up on Yukon, but she does get on my nerves somedays. I was told that this would take a long time, time I have. Like you she will sit next to me in my chair when I'm on the computer, wish she could type or spell. LOL

She is a very loving dog and wants a lot of attention, she will crawl up to my chest to be petted if I ignore her. She has a muzzle, and is crate trained. I don't want to end up in the ER getting stiches from a dog bite, because she would be qurantined for 14days, at the shelter (our shelter has put someone's dog down by mistake) so I would have to pay my vet to keep her. The hospital has to report a dog bite, unless I could plea for them not to. I'm working with Yukon, and will check on how you are doing also. elenamaire gave me this link, and I would like to thank her.

I think that Yukon's thread is in "behavior" I still get a little lost here and can't give you the link, but the title is "Aggression". This behavior has to stop, I love Yukon but tired of getting bite, like you. I run my hand in her dog food dish, make her sit, and she could care less. I will not give up, think that something happen to her as a puppy, like last to eat out of four in the litter. She doesn't do her bussiness on the floor, she does let us know when she wants out, and no trouble walking her on a leash. Just confused about her.

Good luck, and I will check in on you and see how you are doing. Don't like that you are have this problem, but feel better that Yukon is not the only one.

By the way nice to meet you, we are not that far apart, but Texas is hugh.

Edited January 13, 2013 by yukongirl
spelling of course

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

Al, I feel your pain. I started a tread on my dog Yukon who is food aggressive in another section. Last Saturday Yukon lost her ever loving mind and went crazy because I dropped a pecan on the flood. I reached down thinking I saw the pecan and she took a good bite out of my hand and wasn't finished she went after my elbow. I can't touch her food dish, she is like emma's dog Bear, she puts her paws around her food dish. I bought Yukon from what I would call a back yard breeder at 3 months old, they had one food dish for 4 puppies. She is now 31/2yrs going on 4yrs old. I came here for help. In the last week she gets nothing without sitting or giving me her paw for whatever I have.

Yukon is my 3rd husky and the only one food aggressive, and like you everything is miles away, I live in a very rural area. The only place local, and I talked to him years ago, used a cattle prog on dogs, and than I would have to pay him $2000.00 for this, no way!!! He maybe out of business after Katrina. I have no behaviourist local, all out of state. I did speak to one long distance and she thinks that Yukon is insure,and she would have to evaluate Yukon, she may not get her out of this, but teach me ways not to get bit. She takes food from my hand no problem, but don't touch something she thinks that is her's. She took a pack of gum from me, had it on the sofa and would think that was the last food for her between life and death.

I know when she is in this attack mode, and right now I just back away tired of getting bit. For the last week she get nothing unless she works for it, like a sit or shake. I'm not willing or going to give up on Yukon, but she does get on my nerves somedays. I was told that this would take a long time, time I have. Like you she will sit next to me in my chair when I'm on the computer, wish she could type or spell. LOL

She is a very loving dog and wants a lot of attention, she will crawl up to my chest to be petted if I ignore her. She has a muzzle, and is crate trained. I don't want to end up in the ER getting stiches from a dog bite, because she would be qurantined for 14days, at the shelter (our shelter has put someone's dog down by mistake) so I would have to pay my vet to keep her. The hospital has to report a dog bite, unless I could plea for them not to. I'm working with Yukon, and will check on how you are doing also. elenamaire gave me this link, and I would like to thank her.

I think that Yukon's thread is in "behavior" I still get a little lost here and can't give you the link, but the title is "Aggression". This behavior has to stop, I love Yukon but tired of getting bite, like you. I run my hand in her dog food dish, make her sit, and she could care less. I will not give up, think that something happen to her as a puppy, like last to eat out of four in the litter. She doesn't do her bussiness on the floor, she does let us know when she wants out, and no trouble walking her on a leash. Just confused about her.

Good luck, and I will check in on you and see how you are doing. Don't like that you are have this problem, but feel better that Yukon is not the only one.

By the way nice to meet you, we are not that far apart, but Texas is hugh.

Al has conquered sasha. maybe he can give you some tips?

[Removed #5]

Al has conquered sasha. maybe he can give you some tips?

Conquered???? Laughing, I'm not sure if that's the right word but at least we're working on a decent truce.

[MENTION=6074]yukongirl[/MENTION], telling you something you already know - absolute consistency and a lot of patience seem to have been the breakthrough for my Sasha. If you've read my various threads about her, you'll see that my patience was, at times, severely stressed so you do have my sympathy!

[yukongirl]

Thank you...also working with Yukon but I'm just getting started with her. I took her bite in stride and thought that I had to put up with this. Like I said last Saturday was it, I was bleeding all over the floor and she hurt me. My hand is still black and blue. What can I say, I love Yukon and will work thru this.

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

Conquered???? Laughing, I'm not sure if that's the right word but at least we're working on a decent truce.

[MENTION=6074]yukongirl[/MENTION], telling you something you already know - absolute consistency and a lot of patience seem to have been the breakthrough for my Sasha. If you've read my various threads about her, you'll see that my patience was, at times, severely stressed so you do have my sympathy!

lol sorry i was blinded by pain at thre time

[kper]

Power to you, Al.

Our Sacha (ironically names too similar) was food aggressive at 14 weeks and she was treated no differently than we treated any of our huskies in the last 30+ years. As she got older it got worse despite all our attempts to derail that train - many vet visits, intervention, therapists. Even our vet said he'd never seen one quite like Sacha. When it came to food she would do everything we wanted... she knew the routine. Aside from food we couldn't have asked for a more perfect fit to the family.

The main difference between you and I is we had a small child in the house and we weren't going to take any chances. We offered her up for adoption as special needs and was painfully honest about our situation. After many phone calls we had a taker and the last text I got from them said she was doing great and they were happy.

How's it going now?

[Removed #5]

[MENTION=5551]kper[/MENTION] if you've read my comments elsewhere it's going a lot better.

*IF* there had been a child in the house, I'm afraid the results would have been a lot different. I'm a retired bachelor so no kids around. It's odd, she's really excellent with kids - when she's had enough of them she just goes and hides. For example, I stopped at my favourite eatery in town and the waitress had her (almost) 4 year old at work with her. She asked if she could go pet Sasha and I said okay but no food! around her. Sasha loved the attention, up to a point, and then first crawled under one of the outdoor tables and then under my jeep! But both 'momma' and were watching like a pair of hawks ....

[kper]

Well, I don't seem to have much time to read all the posts much lately but I'm glad to hear things are better for you.

Like you, had we not had little ones around we would have given it longer.

[yukongirl]

Morning Al and Sasha, Like you retired, like I said time I have, unless my Mom has another stroke than I'm not home. No kids around Yukon and she is the most friendly dog with other people. Like I said before I happen to be walking her when the cable guy showed up (hate the cable guy, he is always out here) and he could pet her. She was with me on a leash, don't know how she would be on her own. My other two huskies had an escape plan in their head. No matter how hard I tired, they got out especially Juneau, but she always showed back up at the back door covered in mud. Juneau got out several time during the day and I got in my car, took a coke and parked my car on this guy's 100 acres of land. I watched her and she traveled the coverts under the highway, she knew the sound of my horn and she would come to the car. Later in life, she kind of stopped the great escape. Juneau and Kodiak, would dig those back legs in, I saw it coming and I was now taking a sled ride in the grass, I tried to hold on to the leash but they were too strong. Juneau fractured my shoulder and Kodiak broke a bone in my foot, that the doctor said never gets broken and I asked him "do you own a husky?" ha.

At one time I had a lab, American Eskimo, and Kodiak in the house, it was a planned escape. Walker (the lab) pushed the glass patio door open with his head, Tasha opened the screen and off the three of them went. Walker was just easy to get back, Tasha sat down and said come and get me, Kodiak said get in your car and look for me. Everyone on my street knows I have the husky and that I will be in my car looking for my dog. I worked hard teaching Yukon not to pull, didn't need another sled ride, so far so good. I would short leash her, and it was where I wanted to go, not where she wanted to go. Not saying that it won't happen, but hope not, if she acts up on her leash, she gets short leashed and I have more control over her that way. As a puppy I did ask her what bone, do you want to break? Living in the country she does see bunnies, and a lot of squirrels, the bunnies I tell her are friends, lol the squirrels I tell her are henri' and I bet he will beat us back into the house. Since henri' has passed away, I have to stop that and tell her it's Happy or Dee and bet they will beat us back into the house, and as soon as she gets inside and I take her leash off, she is checking the squirrel cage, I tell her see they got home first.

Wish that I would of started with Yukon as a puppy and not had accepted the bites as just Yukon, she is just a puppy and it will pass. Well as she grew the bites got stronger. I was told by another breeder that there was nothing I could do, it was in her as a puppy. Yes, she came from what was no more than a puppy mill and I saw it, knew it but still bought Yukon. She was the only puppy sold in that litter, I hate to think of the life she would of lived there. I think of her as a rescue puppy, that women would of used her for breeding in over crowded cages and she carried Red Mange, she couldn't be used for breeding but she didn't care, I know it. She still breeds the pair, that Yukon came from, even after I called her and told her about the red mange, it was the type that was hereditary. My vet said to tell her, so she would not breed those dogs.

I think of everyday as an adventure with Yukon, know that this will be a long process. Hope that I get to where you are with Sasha.