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Help, advice needed :(


Akira26

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Hey everyone,

My pup is showing some rather odd behavior in my opinion - She bites alot (which is expected as a puppy), at first things like ending play time with no contact at all worked, then we had to start gently holding her around the mouth and saying no which again worked for a short time but then she would just keep trying though she'd bite hanrder and she would try to dodge us when we tried to stop her, then we put our fingers under her tongue which she hated at first and well your getting the picture - not even leaving the room altogether, distracting her with her toys and anti biting sprays work now - as soon as we return she starts again, sometimes with or without growling. The stangest thing of all is that she bites herself - she will chow down on her legs etc. I took her to the vets who couldn't find any reason for this - no flea's, skin condition etc .

(I will just state hear as well that we do not encourage games such as tug of war, wrestling and we have strict rules in place so that she knows that the three adults in the house are the bosses.)

I do not have a clue what to do besides what I am currently doing, any advice? :ran_frown:

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at 9 weeks old blaze was still nipping i think u just need 2 perserver - what age did u get her? and was she still bein kept with mum and pups? if she was still with her mum and siblings i dont think its summin 2 do with the breeders as her mum and siblings will let her no when enuf is enuf have u trip a high pitched sharp no or yelp like a pup wud do if play got 2 rough? if not maybe this might help

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Agree with the above, they will still nip at that age and I would just persevere with it to be honest. Its nothing that training wont sort out, and from what you have said above you seem to be doing the right things.

As for the rest of the situation, have you also informed the kennel Club of this, as I think this may be something they would also get involved with.

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At 9 weeks old Isis was doing similar things! What you have to remember is that she is still very young and has a very short attention span! What your doing sounds good and would urge you to continue being the same, be consistent and make sure that all of the adults are doing the same.

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Thanks for answering everyone - add to rep. :)

We actually got her at just over 6 weeks old ( we only found out her age when we recieved a form noting we now had her.) They had actually specified that she was six weeks old when I first went to visit her (she looked big and healthy so I didn't query it) - two weeks before I collected her. The mother at the time was outside as the pups were feeding so I could not see any interaction though I did see the mother.

I know nipping is normal but the thing is we had it under control to a degree - there is a definite difference between how hard she is nipping now and well a week a go. Its just the fact that the things we do has no response - it just makes her worse. She also growls a heck of a lot - food, toys etc. Oh yeah another point I shall make is that at first she'd attack chairs and the cabinets - we used the above methods and she now does not do this.

We used the method of yelping, saying ouch in loud high pitched voices and even ep ep like the books I have mentions - this is what first worked with getting her to nip a lot more gently. I will also mention that she is very food orientated though that doesn't really help when she's going off on a nipping fest.

I am going to keep everything I have said up, I am just looking for perhaps some alternative methods to use as well as.

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Yes Alex I sure do - she only gets things such as food, treats and attention when she has done what I want or she has been good.

I have thought of putting something on my hands to stop her but I do not know what - I mean the anti bite spray doesn't work but would it be safe to put like citrious juices on my hand or even lemon? I do not want to upset her stomach or anything but thats something I could see working.

Another thing I read was to grab her by the scruff of her neck and say No in a stern loud voice - Would this hurt her or anything? I do not want to do anything that would hurt or enhance the way she currently is.

What about her biting herself? Is this normal behavior? I mean she literally pulls chunks of fur out her tail and she chews her legs, paws etc.

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With regards to chewing herself, i'm wondering if this is early indication of a neurological disorder? Just with how you describe how she pulls chunks out of herself?? I may be totally wrong so don't panic :D

I think with the hand biting though, what you're doing is great - you're doing all the right things :up: Keep persevering we're all here to help and support you! xx

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Thanks Sarah add to rep :),

Yeah the whole chewing herself does concern me as I do not deam it normal - I mean it worries me a lot as I hate seeing her doing so. Hopefully that is just a faze but if not I am not sure what to do if it doesn't ease or she doesn't stop....

The thing is it isn't just hands - that I can deal with, she bites my and the other adults: hands, torso, feet, legs, arms, face and neck if I am low enough (basically anything she can reach). I will also just give a quick example of the biting behavior: My nan was just stood talking to me after stroking Tala last night- Tala then went and laid down, a second later she ran, jumped up and bit my nans hand before letting go and then going to lay down again.

She doesn't even like cuddles or snuggling up to us now - she won't fall asleep on us or allow us to stroke/pet her for long.

I shall keep battling through it though. Hopefully time, perseverance and consistancy will correct all of this :)

Thanks though the support and advice on here is amazing

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Just a thought. Any chance you can try and catch a few different examples of the behaviour and upload it. This way we may be able to help you out a little further and try and determine if its something wrong, or something you are doing wrong yourself. Although from what you are saying above I cant it being training to be honest

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Possible attention seeking??

At 9 weeks she's way to young to go out but you can mentally stimulate her by training - have you started training sit, wait, down, paw etc? Giving her commands and teaching her obedience will help :)

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Marc - I shall see if i can get hold of a video camera/phone so I can do as you suggested.

Sarah - I have been training her, she already does sit, stay, down etc. I try to get training in everyday, I also praise good behavior with treats to help encourage her. Everything is the same as when we first got her so we can't pin point it. We are being very sturn as we believe that if they have get away with it once it is giving them lee way. We have had a routine in place since we first got her - food, quiet time, play time, maintence etc We also have toys that you put treats in to help mentally stimulate her.

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OK all sounds normal but this could get a whole lot worse if its not sorted out now! Food aggression should not be tolerated, she must see you as the giver of all food....so make her sit and wait for her food..even when you put the bowl down she is not allowed to rush toward it..make her sit and wait, then give the command "ok" and let her eat it for a few seconds..then pick it up and make her sit and wait again >>> if she growls you say "NO" and take the food away, leave the food on your lap for about 15-30 mins and make her stay down until your ready to put it back down again (you could just have it on your lap when watching TV or anything)....keep doing this as it may take some time, but soon her brain will click: "OH, the food is the alpha's and i only get it when im good!" Same for the toys >> any growling then she gets her toy taken away with a loud "NO" from you aswell.

The thing here is shes not taking your seriously..does she listen without food? Does she drop items like toys and food when you say "drop it"? If she doesnt even follow simple commands then she will see her status in the pack as higher and as she matures she will domminate the family! We took one of Cesar Millans little tricks, we used to use the submission position >>> very rarely but there were times when Alaska would mouth us and then make a brake for it....or nip too hard and ignore us, so we put her on her side and made her stay there until we gave the release command. This isn't actually full submission..in fact far from it, in the wild it would be the dog on their back, with the other dog on top of them holding the dog firmly around the throut!! The position Cesar uses is very much a relaxation technique >>> often when a puppy is nipping and ignoring you they are in an excited state >> this postion calms them down whilst showing your domminance over them.

The nipping, a loud shreik and then a sharp "NO" should do the trick, we also held their mouth shut so they knew what were on about >> not too hard of course and the puppy may even whine out of protest but it teaches them a lot quicker. Also if she nips toop hard..do the Cesar tech...submitt her.

Chewing herself and the house: Buy a bitter apple or an anti-chew spray...douse the house in it and she will hate it..mine do!!! If she is chewing herself until she bleeds or loosing hair it says on the bottle it can be sprayed on an area on the dog to stop self harm >> you dont want to spray it all over her 'cos if she has an itch it may be very frustrating for her. If she simply chews but not to injure then leave her! Its a normal puppy thing that she will grow out of. Going to puppy classes may make the world of difference.

:)

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Thanks for your advice Ice and cripton.

I already make her sit and wait for food - to try to assert myself more I actually pretend to eat some which has worked wonders as she will wait patiently and quietly. Its if I go near her bowl - she will growl or start eating even faster- I do take it off her and I have even added a bit more food when I have taken it to try to make it a positive association, though I make her wait until calm. This has started to improve a bit I mean the growling isn't as bad and sometimes she hasn't growled so hopefully time will solve it with perseverance.

She does listen to me without food - e.g. calling her in from the garden, sit, down etc. I have even giot her to wait to go out the back door until I have. She does the commands very well - the only problem being is literally the biting of us and the biting of herself.

In regards to the biting I have not yet used a submission technique so thats an idea I do however do the gentle grabbing of her mouth accompained with loud shrieks etc lol my Tala actually likes the anti biting sprays oddly enough, it doesn't stop her. She doesn't bite furniture - we follow the things I mentioned in my first post and she doesn't do it currently it is literally just us and herself.

Thanks for all of that, it was a great response :) Added to rep.

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Excellent to hear she follows commands...try hot pepper suace lol >> There is no way she'll like this, you'll just have to experiment. I wanted to say you could eat with her and you even growl but then i thought you'd think i was crazy lol I hope it goes well, stick to it and make sure the whole family puts in as much effort as you....keep us posted! x

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They have no hands, so they explore with their teeth. Start can't get something for nothing.Try these:

http://www.humanesocietystjc.org/educational/mouthing.pdf

http://www.petfinder.com/pet-training/nip-mouthing-bud.html

http://www.essortment.com/hobbies/dogchewchewing_sbmm.htm

The first thing to do is visit your veterinarian. This behavior might be caused by a health condition that needs medical attention. Pain and discomfort from more serious problems, as well as from minor skin conditions and flea bites, can cause a pet to chew on herself. Please do NOT try to diagnose the problem yourself. See your vet.

Usually when the ailment troubling your pet goes away, so does the self-chewing behavior. Sometimes, however, the behavior continues as a habit even though the health problem is long gone. One trick is to give your dog something especially yummy to chew on beside herself. Personally, I smear a little peanut butter inside a Kong toy, just out of reach and my dogs will spend hours trying to lick it out. If the dog is trying to get peanut butter out of a kong toy, it cannot at the same time be chewing herself bald.

Many pets have excess or nervous energy and nowhere to vent the stress, so they develop a habit or pastime of licking and chewing themselves. Other pets actually learn this behavior because their owners make such a fuss over them whenever they indulge in such activities. For example: "Oh Rover, you poor, poor thing, what's wrong with your little paws? Are they itchy or sore? Oh you poor baby." Pat, pat, stroke, stroke, etc. It doesn't take long for Rover to realize this is a quick and easy way to gain instant attention and affection.

The key to stopping this habit is 1) redirecting your dog's energy, 2) distraction and 3) not rewarding the behavior.

First, be sure to provide your dog with plenty of opportunity to run, play, exercise and train. This will vent any pent up energy and relieve stress. A well-exercised, trained and happy dog will not likely have to relieve tension or entertain herself by self mutilation.

Secondly, whenever your dog begins to lick or chew herself, try making a very short, sharp, loud sound, just enough to startle her into stopping and looking around to see what happened. Try not to let her know that you caused the noise. After she has stopped for several seconds, call her over to play a game, do some training or give her a massage or special toy. Reward her for other behavior rather than inadvertently rewarding her for chewing herself.

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Thanks Ice and Kripton hot sauce is a brilliant idea - id only thought of orange juice and lemon juice. I shall have to try that :D

lol I always eat before her usually so I think it may confuse her if suddenly i was next her to her lol food for thought though if these don't work.

Thank you very much and I shall. Ha don't worry she is surrounded by three very persistant people, we all do the same as well. :D

I shall let you all know how it goes and what method works, fingers crossed x

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Thanks Damrod (Add to rep) but both of the links came up with page not found/ page unavailable. :)

Thanks for all of that helpful information regarding to her biting herself, I shall try what you have suggested and let you know how it goes. That post is full of so many different things so hopefully I shall find a way to stop her from doing it. :D

I saw the vet yesterday who checked her over - he said her skin looked fine and that she didn't have flea's, he told me to monitor the situation for a couple of days.

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Thanks for answering everyone - add to rep. :)

We actually got her at just over 6 weeks old ( we only found out her age when we recieved a form noting we now had her.) They had actually specified that she was six weeks old when I first went to visit her (she looked big and healthy so I didn't query it) - two weeks before I collected her. The mother at the time was outside as the pups were feeding so I could not see any interaction though I did see the mother.

I know nipping is normal but the thing is we had it under control to a degree - there is a definite difference between how hard she is nipping now and well a week a go. Its just the fact that the things we do has no response - it just makes her worse. She also growls a heck of a lot - food, toys etc. Oh yeah another point I shall make is that at first she'd attack chairs and the cabinets - we used the above methods and she now does not do this.

We used the method of yelping, saying ouch in loud high pitched voices and even ep ep like the books I have mentions - this is what first worked with getting her to nip a lot more gently. I will also mention that she is very food orientated though that doesn't really help when she's going off on a nipping fest.

I am going to keep everything I have said up, I am just looking for perhaps some alternative methods to use as well as.

As puppies develop and become more aware of their surroundings they will try different behaviours to see if they will work.

Bite inhibition is not something that can be taught over night. Consider it this way, if you had gotten your pup at eight weeks (which is the age any reputable breeder will sell their pups) you will have only had her for a week and she would still be exhibiting this behaviour.

There is a reason it's advised pups should not leave the litter until eight weeks and whilst I realise you didn't know it at the time, between 6-8 weeks is a crucial age for pups to start developing their pack skills which includes things like bite inhibition. When we take them home at eight weeks these skills are still developing.

There is nothing unusual about a nine week old pup still nipping. There is no need to pin her to the ground, in fact this could excite her further and encourage her to nip even more. The best advice I can give you is to persevere and be consistent, if she nips you give a high pitched noise or a no and get up and walk away. When she's calm redirect her to a toy, teach her that teeth on you is going to get her no where.

Despite what many people tell you it's much more about playing than it is about dominance, it constantly surprises me that people really think a nine week old pup is going to be constantly trying to challenge and dominate you. They are babies and they don't yet know what is and isn't acceptable.

The only corrections I use on pups this age is the removal of a reward, IMO it's all you need because none of their behaviours have become habits, they are still developing and learning and are at a stage when we are able to shape and develop the behaviours we want to see.

What about her biting herself? Is this normal behavior? I mean she literally pulls chunks of fur out her tail and she chews her legs, paws etc.

Have you asked your vet about her biting herself? is she showing any signs of irritation or rash on her skin?

The thing is it isn't just hands - that I can deal with, she bites my and the other adults: hands, torso, feet, legs, arms, face and neck if I am low enough (basically anything she can reach). I will also just give a quick example of the biting behavior: My nan was just stood talking to me after stroking Tala last night- Tala then went and laid down, a second later she ran, jumped up and bit my nans hand before letting go and then going to lay down again.

Pups of this age are easily excitable and many don't have an interest in sitting calmly and nicely, they want to play just like they would with their litter mates.

She's trying to see what will work for her and what will get attention, she doesn't yet know the boundaries or rules. Have you been crate training her?

She doesn't even like cuddles or snuggling up to us now - she won't fall asleep on us or allow us to stroke/pet her for long.

My bitch was just like this. She had no interest in being picked up or cuddled, she was all about go go go! As she started maturing she became the biggest snuggle bum.

Remember that as the alpha attention and affection is on your terms only. If she's not that fussed with being cuddled or pet don't force it on her, let her come to you. I guarantee you that the more you make your attention a valuable and exciting resource to her the more she will want it. The fact she's jumping up on you and nipping you is proof she wants your attention, you just need to teach her that she can have it on your terms only. Even if that means getting her to sit without nipping for a second or two, you need to build up the behaviour you want to see.

leave the food on your lap for about 15-30 mins and make her stay down until your ready to put it back down again (you could just have it on your lap when watching TV or anything)....

No need to take her food especially for 15-30 minutes! That's a life time in puppy time and will do nothing but build frustration - removal of rewards (although I wouldn't do it like with dinner, because I have a method I think works better ;)) is a great way to teach a pup the rules but you don't need to take something away for that long to have the effect you want. Building their frustration for something they want is a great learning tool, but I wouldn't take something away my adult dogs for that long never mind a pup.

The thing here is shes not taking your seriously..does she listen without food? Does she drop items like toys and food when you say "drop it"? If she doesnt even follow simple commands then she will see her status in the pack as higher and as she matures she will domminate the family! We took one of Cesar Millans little tricks, we used to use the submission position >>> very rarely but there were times when Alaska would mouth us and then make a brake for it....or nip too hard and ignore us, so we put her on her side and made her stay there until we gave the release command. This isn't actually full submission..in fact far from it, in the wild it would be the dog on their back, with the other dog on top of them holding the dog firmly around the throut!! The position Cesar uses is very much a relaxation technique >>> often when a puppy is nipping and ignoring you they are in an excited state >> this postion calms them down whilst showing your domminance over them.

Or it can continue to over excite an already excitable pup. Or it can make them bite harder. IMO there is no need to use punishment or corrections like that when we're dealing with pups. I don't use corrections to teach my dogs, it's not fair to correct them for something they haven't yet learnt. I use corrections when they disobey a known command, a nine week old pup who is nipping isn't intentionally disobeying you they just haven't learnt otherwise yet. There seems to be a lot of focus on punishing pups instead of teaching them, remember we are dealing with babies who are in their most crucial learning period. Do we want to teach them that physical force is the way to win or do we want to teach them that looking to us for permission and guidance is desirable? 80% of a pups brain has developed by the time they are 16 weeks old which is why it's so crucial to make sure the things we shape and teach before then are done properly.

I don't want my dogs acting submissively around me, I want them to respect me, they are two different things IMO.

I already make her sit and wait for food - to try to assert myself more I actually pretend to eat some which has worked wonders as she will wait patiently and quietly. Its if I go near her bowl - she will growl or start eating even faster- I do take it off her and I have even added a bit more food when I have taken it to try to make it a positive association, though I make her wait until calm. This has started to improve a bit I mean the growling isn't as bad and sometimes she hasn't growled so hopefully time will solve it with perseverance.

When you sit and make her wait for her food, what does she do? It's not uncommon for pups to resource guard because often their litter mates will try and take their food.

First and foremost I focus on teaching pups that food is a resource I control and one they have to look to permission to me to eat, they learn that obeying me is the fastest way to get what they want. Once I give them the ok I leave them in peace to eat, and let them build up the idea that I am no threat to their food and that they have no need to feel like I'm going to take it away from them.

I can take food away from my dogs with no problems because they know food is no big deal. Being able to take food away from them is the goal, not the method (IMO).

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Really great post Bec! I think its hard to say for sure how a dog will act around different methods of training, Alaska certaintly doesn't act in a fearful, submissive way around or towrads me like you suggested, we have done different types of training which build trust, form bonds and gain respect >> we went to training classes to do activities with our dogs and a higher level of training. When Balto got here Alaska went as far as to attack Balto leaving him on the corner all scared >> eventhough they had seperate bowls...for this she didn't at all that day! No harm done, she didn't do it again though! Food is a priviledge..in the wild its hard to come by therefore they must work as a unit. The submission as i have voiced to you before is not a punishment, you can give your dog a relaxing head message whilst in this position....its to calm the brain and body down >> its like sitting us down and giving a back rub >>> just to clarify i dont mean as a punishment at all Louise, no bad or negative energy>>> just controilling the situation.

But Bec is right that all puppies take to training differently, and the last thing you want is to be too hard on a puppy, you want them to be condifent and experience the wolrd..not be scared of it and you! Trial and error, see how it goes, if she responds negativly to it by all means look around for other ways:)

Added to rep Bec

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Really great post Bec! I think its hard to say for sure how a dog will act around different methods of training, Alaska certaintly doesn't act in a fearful, submissive way around or towrads me like you suggested, we have done different types of training which build trust, form bonds and gain respect

Sorry, Ice, I didn't mean to suggest that you had a relationship like that with Alaska - my comment was meant in broader terms, just in case people think that having a dog be submissive to you is the ideal. A submissive dog will walk around you with it's head down, avoid eye contact with you etc and to me that's almost the opposite of what I want - a relationship where the dog respects you is one where the dog will look to you for guidance and defer to you when it comes to making decisions. Respect is something earnt not forced, as I'm sure you know with your dogs :)

The submission as i have voiced to you before is not a punishment, you can give your dog a relaxing head message whilst in this position....its to calm the brain and body down >> its like sitting us down and giving a back rub >>> just to clarify i dont mean as a punishment at all Louise, no bad or negative energy>>> just controilling the situation.

That's cool Ice, I know what you mean :) Unfortunately when we use something like the 'Cesar' alpha roll on a pup they can see it as a punishment (and sadly many people use it this way), it can even be scary for a pup who is forced into a position they are not comfortable with. Pups can see it as a challenge and this can make them feel intimidated or more confident pups may take you up on the challenge and become even more bitey. Whilst I think it's really important to be able to handle our pups and move them around, and I can get all my dog to lie on their backs if I need to, we don't want to put them in a situation where they feel they are being seriously confronted or challenged. IMO, there are lots of other more effective ways to teach pups of that age control (such as removal of rewards be that food, toys, attention etc). Not meaning to pick on you, Ice, but it's a method that can easily be misunderstood when reading about it over the net.

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Thank you very much Smeagle! (add to rep) You have covered everything! Theres so much info!

I shall continue to persevere with the methods I am currently using then - It is good to know that I am doing the right thing even if i need to make adjustments. I have not pinned her down or anything to communicate that she is doing something wrong (Though I do grab her muzzle gently and say no if she is persistant.) I will also focus on re-directing her when I return.

I went to the vets yesterday and he said that he could not see any irratation or signs of a skin condition and has told me to keep an eye on the matter over the next few days - if she continues I have to take her back to him.

Yes I do have a crate for her (luckily she's loved it from the start :) ), I only use it though when I have to go out or when its night time, though she has access to it all day.

When I make her sit and wait for food she will just sit there normally, if I see that she looks like she is going to bolt lol or a paw lifts then i just repeat the stay which works. Once I have said ok she dashes to the food and I leave her to it.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write so much, it has helped me understand somethings a lot better, I shall continue to be consistant with what I am doing and I shall use some of the information to help teach rather than correct! Its a big help :)

Thanks as well Siberian wolf :)

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Gotcha, no i knew you werent saying anyhting about my 2, i justed wanted Louise to know if done correctly it can have a positive affect. So many people bully their dogs and hide behind a TV show or a trainer. Sometimes i just let them be puppies..these 2 are only 1 and sometimes act up, Alaska will whoo and bring her toy to me for attention, Balto will chew and steal stuff (lol) Your absolutely right >> when i walk into a room i like my ears back, tail wagging welcome..the last thing i'd want is to be feared..and my 2 know this and make the most of it lol The house however should be a place of calm and rules, our 2 are out most of the day and they run riot whick nakkers em out..its harder with pups as they cant have as much exercise!

The proof is in the pudding i guess, many members on here have and do use the Cesar tech and with great success, and weve all seen vids of your sibe doing the heel and hes clearly a confident, happy, devoted sibe:D Just wanted to let members know there are different ways to train but the main point is in all training is that it should be positive..use treats and rewards for good behaivor instead of always punishing them, its just sometimes they do need a correction or a little direction to calm them down:)

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Thank you very much Smeagle! (add to rep) You have covered everything! Theres so much info!

I shall continue to persevere with the methods I am currently using then - It is good to know that I am doing the right thing even if i need to make adjustments. I have not pinned her down or anything to communicate that she is doing something wrong (Though I do grab her muzzle gently and say no if she is persistant.) I will also focus on re-directing her when I return.

I found redirecting them to a toy is useful because it teaches them what they can bite and play with, as well as teaching them what doesn't work.

I've found with some pups that putting your thumb down on their bottom jaw (where there is a gap between their front teeth and back teeth) and pushing down can turn them off, although I'm sure with some pups that this could get them even more excited! The thing to remember most of all is that nipping/biting is the pup wanting to play with you and get your attention, so the most effective way of deterring the behaviour is to teach them biting/nipping = no attention and nice, calm behaviour means you will engage with them. Even if that means encouraging them to play with a toy, get them to sit before you throw it or play tug of war (a great way to teach the pup to 'give'!).

Yes I do have a crate for her (luckily she's loved it from the start :) ), I only use it though when I have to go out or when its night time, though she has access to it all day.

It might be worthwhile teaching her to go in it during the day, for short periods of time, start with a couple of minutes and move up in five minute increments so that she can learn to be in her crate on her own, in case you ever need to pop her in there when you can't supervise her or if she's getting in the way.

Don't forget the crate is a great tool and one you can use to your benefit!

When I make her sit and wait for food she will just sit there normally, if I see that she looks like she is going to bolt lol or a paw lifts then i just repeat the stay which works. Once I have said ok she dashes to the food and I leave her to it.

If you're worried about her breaking the stay try putting her on the leash and attaching it to something solid so if she tries to move forward towards the food the leash stops her. Don't give the ok until she is looking at you and making eye contact, and sitting nicely. Once she's doing that, undo the leash and give her the 'ok' command. You want her to learn to look to you for permission to eat, that giving you eye contact is the way to get what she wants.

I'll PM you some more info so you can read through it at your own pace :)

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