Malamute Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Just have to share my experience of yesterday. Had a one - on - one with my dog trainer last week and she re-affirmed her opinion that I would be OK letting Blizzard off the lead provided I kept an eye out for all usual 'hazards'. Anyway....... I was walking in the local nature reserve, Healy Dell, yesterday and thought 'what the hell' and slipped Blizzy off his lead. He was absolutely fab, running about like a mad thing but never more than about 40' away from me and coming back every now and then to make sure I was still interested.... Also called him close a few times to give him a bit of cheese (his fave) and also when some yappy Daschunds (check spelling Ian) came down the path. Let him off again once they'd passed and same again. It was a great experience and one which I will work on loads because seeing him run as he was meant to do was exhilerating. Next time I'll try and get a vid...... By the way, this is 'The Dell'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamute Posted May 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 sorry, Dell pic failed.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Good to hear you have made some progress Just remember never to trust him off leash if it isn't in a secure area or an area you haven't proofed for - you never know when a distraction you aren't prepared for will steal your dog's attention. That's why although I believe it is possible to teach dogs like Sibes and mallies reliable recall, you need to make sure you proof for the highest level of distraction to be successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 That's Fantasitc Ian, I very nearly went down the Dell with my two yesterday but Formula 1 took priority lol so just walked my dogs on local field Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqwidge Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 see i think Eika would do well off lead, she always comes (well almost always) to me if i have food...but i'm just so nervous, i couldn't do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic_Sibe Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Kiana seems ok at the moment too, if she goes out the front door, she always comes back when I call her. Not convinced she'll be like that when she's older. Ishka used to go 'missing' sometimes for hours if she got out of the front door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I do it with my 2 but only in a safe place, Kaiser has 100% recall even when other people / dogs / animals about, Kimba - i don't trust 100% and am careful where I let him off - won't be trusting kaiser soon though, when Kimba was younger he was 100% reliable like Kaiser is at the moment but now - well, typical teenager - has a bloody mind of his own lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 see i think Eika would do well off lead, she always comes (well almost always) to me if i have food...but i'm just so nervous, i couldn't do it. Puppies generally are good off leash, my beagle was too when we first got her and I actually commented on how trustworthy she was. Her breeder said 'wait until she's older!' - yep, that recall flew out the window and I spend a lot of time training it now LOL. Almost always is not good enough for me, I believe dogs when trained the right way can have 100% recall but I will only trust mine off leash when I know that is the level of reliability I am going to get. I don't take any chances, I like the old training scenario of the rabbit - would your dog recall to you or stay in stay if a rabbit ran past? I always train with 'the rabbit' in mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 i know what you mean smeagle - Kimba has gone down hill now - i need to work more on his recall it's too hit and miss now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 i know what you mean smeagle - Kimba has gone down hill now - i need to work more on his recall it's too hit and miss now. Their drive does increase as they get older which means they are more easily distracted and often look to other things for drive satisfaction (i.e. chasing prey items etc). As dogs mature they also go through that adolescent age where they have that typical selective deafness - they test the boundaries and are less likely to obey us then they were before. Often we inadvertently teach them bad habits too - like calling them when we know they aren't going to come as it teaches them that it's ok to ignore our commands. I know I've been totally guilty of that myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 selective hearing - yep!! know all about that one lol I also try not to call him when I know he's not going to come hindsight however is a wonderful thing lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 selective hearing - yep!! know all about that one lol I also try not to call him when I know he's not going to come hindsight however is a wonderful thing lol Yep it surely is! I video camera a lot of my training sessions now and I watch them back (as well as sending them to my trainer each week) so I can have a more critical eye in regards to my body language, the signals I give, the technique I use etc. Sometimes watching them back I see a glaringly big error that I didn't even realise I was doing at the time! No wonder our dogs get confused sometimes, lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamute Posted May 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Sensible concerns But I'm sure you'll all agree that the sight of you dog running full tilt with ears pinned down is just awesome - and well worth the effort in training.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 But I'm sure you'll all agree that the sight of you dog running full tilt with ears pinned down is just awesome - and well worth the effort in training.... Yep I do, but when it comes to breeds like huskies and mals we can't afford to take any risk with our training. Not saying you are just talking generally - we can never become complacent and trust them when we aren't totally certain about their reliability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqwidge Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Oh Ian i love it, at puppy classes we have a recall run, its only about 30ft and unlike some of the other pups she comes to me straight away and quickly...the trainer will hold her up one end whislt i 'run' down to the other then call her...we had to do it with other pups lined up along the side of the fence and even this didn't bother her...other pups looked and thought about going to the others she didn't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 well done Ian and Blizz My 3 were ok off lead when puppies but since Gizmo chased a horse and it took us a long time to get him back I dont like them being off lead now! Sherie and Lee used to go out with Gizmo on their bikes and he would happily follow them and wouldnt pay any attention to anyone else being so busy trying to keep up, but I dont want to risk it. I learnt the hard way about having my 3 off the lead and although Sherie and Lee let them off the lead I really dont like them doing it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 But I'm sure you'll all agree that the sight of you dog running full tilt with ears pinned down is just awesome - and well worth the effort in training.... Yeah couldn't agree more, when i see my boys running about it's fantastic to see them so happy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 When Smithy was a pup we used to let him off lead 100% recall, then he turned 2 and one day caught wind of something and legged it up a hillside and off, saw him about half a mile away, up on the hill, still at full pelt after what still don't know. Now he is never off-lead, saying that though he does have a 90ft home made lead. Well done on the training but what I'm trying to say is, like others, be careful... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austinville Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 It was a great experience and one which I will work on loads because seeing him run as he was meant to do was exhilerating. I know the feeling....it's so beautiful to be able to see. Couple that with a full blown howl and it just goes to show you that life IS good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Puppies are great off lead but as they get older they get more independant and no matter how much recall you have taught and how often they normaly come back to you a husky s high prey drive will win every time when they see a squirrel or a rabbit they will be off at 100mph :eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Someone posted this short article on another forum and it sums up brilliantly exactly why Huskies and other northern breeds can never be trusted 100% off-lead: There's a reason these are classified as Working Dogs. Take the husky, bred to live in the vast arctic plains, to use his wits to survive. When the nearest grocery store with a can of Alpo may be hundreds of snowy miles away, a sharp predatory instinct is useful if you don't want to starve. If you are pulling a heavy sled for hours across the tundra, a fierce desire to run and roam is a positive attribute. If your sensitive paws tell you the ice ahead isn't safe, even though your human musher is urging you forward, a streak of willfulness can save lives. A Siberian husky is an independent, energetic dog that needs a job, a lot of exercise, and a savvy owner. But what makes a perfect dog in the Yukon can make for a heap of trouble in Yonkers. The Northern California Sled Dog Rescue says that, for a Siberian husky, "obedience is optional.... If you want a dog who will be at your beck and call, get a golden retriever." It is that streak of independence, coupled with their hard-wired prey drive, which makes sibes etc what they are and also ensures that you can never have 100% recall with a sibe. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie62 Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 i totally agree with you mick . it is lovely to hear your stories about how well they are doing off lead but does worry me . not saying dont do it as everyone does things differently but you can never be 100% with them , care at all times ,you never no what is round the corner as they say ..xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 I like that Sibes are independent (I'm not one for typically biddable, velcro breeds) and I love a dog with a good amount of drive. I would personally prefer to train a dog who has lots of prey (or food) drive then one without, as I find it harder to motivate the dogs who just don't have that same drive. I know my opinion on recall training is unpopular, and I have been flamed for it in the past - I've learned my lesson (the hard way lol) about talking about it much. What I will say, is that I do believe that if you can control that prey drive and make it work for you that you can have a very very reliable dog. As I said earlier in this thread - if you can't guarantee you Sibe will still focus on you when 'the rabbit' runs in front of them then don't put total trust into them. It's not worth the risk for an off leash run. As a general rule I tell all Sibe owners to keep their dogs on leash, in the same way I tell all beagle owners (and owners of other very prey driven dogs) not to trust their dogs off leash. If a Sibe owner asked me if it's possible to have reliable recall I won't say no, and I'll explain to them the training options they can look at and consider but I make it very clear that it's not easy, it takes a lot of work, and conventional methods *do not work* on high drive dogs. It takes a lot of work to master and understand drive training and it's not for everyone - although I'm happy to talk about it when the subject comes up in a training thread such as this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamute Posted May 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 No arguments But surely if a police dog can be taught to end a pursuit within yards of his target - with 100% reliability - then a Mal / Sibe can be taught to overcome his prey drive. Kath (my trainer) who actually trains to a competition level insists that the golden rule in recall is to make sure your dog never forgets that you are far more interesting and in possession of tastier morsels than the rabbit / sheep / deer etc. I'm not being niaive or complacent but I'm determined to achieve my goal in this respect - mainly because I feel it's unfair to own a dog that can run all day and not give him the chance to run even a few hundred yards without feeling a leash dragging behind him. (sob, sob) Mind you I might change my mind the first time he sees a deer or rabbit in 'The Dell'!! Mind you, there's too many bloody rabbits around anyway!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 But surely if a police dog can be taught to end a pursuit within yards of his target - with 100% reliability - then a Mal / Sibe can be taught to overcome his prey drive. Kath (my trainer) who actually trains to a competition level insists that the golden rule in recall is to make sure your dog never forgets that you are far more interesting and in possession of tastier morsels than the rabbit / sheep / deer etc.! The point that the quotation I mentioned above was making was that northern dogs were and are very different from other breeds - even those with almost equally high prey drives, and certainly very different from those bred over generations as herding/guarding dogs. The other problem is that to most (if not all) sibes, the rabbit/sheep/deer will trump any sort of treat or praise you could possibly think of. Even at home, tidbits they can steal (eg bits of rotten food from the bin) are much more precious to them than tidbits they are given (wonderful purpose-bought dog treats) - it is simply the nature of the beast! We run our sibes in harness, and we run them off lead in an enclosed area occasionally. Judging by their behaviour and excitement, running in harness wins hands down every time - after all, it is what they have been selectively bred for over millennia. Yes they look great running free, but to me they look even better (and happier) running in harness. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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