siberian_wolf Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Someone posted this short article on another forum and it sums up brilliantly exactly why Huskies and other northern breeds can never be trusted 100% off-lead: There's a reason these are classified as Working Dogs. Take the husky, bred to live in the vast arctic plains, to use his wits to survive. When the nearest grocery store with a can of Alpo may be hundreds of snowy miles away, a sharp predatory instinct is useful if you don't want to starve. If you are pulling a heavy sled for hours across the tundra, a fierce desire to run and roam is a positive attribute. If your sensitive paws tell you the ice ahead isn't safe, even though your human musher is urging you forward, a streak of willfulness can save lives. A Siberian husky is an independent, energetic dog that needs a job, a lot of exercise, and a savvy owner. But what makes a perfect dog in the Yukon can make for a heap of trouble in Yonkers. The Northern California Sled Dog Rescue says that, for a Siberian husky, "obedience is optional.... If you want a dog who will be at your beck and call, get a golden retriever." It is that streak of independence, coupled with their hard-wired prey drive, which makes sibes etc what they are and also ensures that you can never have 100% recall with a sibe. Mick good find and well said - added to rep. I definately know why almost 100% of sibe owners say "They are not an off leash dog" and I did learn the hard way. The sibe and other breeds (not just northern breeds in partuclar) are free spirited with a high prey drive, high energy level, ability to run on all terrains in different weather conditions, ability to pull heavy loads, is quick on their feet, and have been since they were first bred within tribes. Although sibes can be taught things like pulling the rigs/sleds/scooters/etc, walk to a heel, basic commands (sit, down, paw, leave, etc), and even maybe the odd trick too they can be very good at all of this but it doesnt make them 100% reliable. They could suddenly change direction when pulling the rig, etc, they may decide that they dont want to walk to a heel today and pull you, they may not want to as you say they should which is what makes them such a free spirited dog. Ive learnt with my boys that if I want something from them (i.e. a sit) then they have to see/smell/know what the reward is going to be for them, the reason why they are being asked to sit otherwise they wont. This is what can make a sibe so challenging as they are that intelligent that they know if there is any point to do what you say, if they are not going to get anything in return then why should they do what you say? Ive heard other dog owners say that the sibe isnt intelligent but they are and in my eyes one of the most intelligent, why? Because they are not an easy dog to train, to me if a dog is easily trained it does not make it intelligent at all, just more domesticated to humans and they still have to be commanded in one way or another so how does that make them intelligent, simple it doesnt. However, saying that there are northern breed owners who have probably never used a lead on thier dog ever and always have them off leash, which does make it possible to train a sibe to walk off lead, but I wouldnt recommend it at all myself mainly due to the experience I had with mine off leash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 readin all this makes me realise y i love my 50ft lead he can still run! and i dnt have 2 worry he always comes back when called on the lead wudnt risk takin it off him tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Great post Mick. I can see where you're coming from though Ian, I do let both my boys off lead when safe and am just waiting to get the attachment for my bike - so if you're ever in the dell - watch out for me screaming STOOPPPPPPPP lol I can't wait to work them on the bike Have you started with the weight pull training yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 But surely if a police dog can be taught to end a pursuit within yards of his target - with 100% reliability - then a Mal / Sibe can be taught to overcome his prey drive. Kath (my trainer) who actually trains to a competition level insists that the golden rule in recall is to make sure your dog never forgets that you are far more interesting and in possession of tastier morsels than the rabbit / sheep / deer etc. I'm not being niaive or complacent but I'm determined to achieve my goal in this respect - mainly because I feel it's unfair to own a dog that can run all day and not give him the chance to run even a few hundred yards without feeling a leash dragging behind him. (sob, sob) Mind you I might change my mind the first time he sees a deer or rabbit in 'The Dell'!! Mind you, there's too many bloody rabbits around anyway!! It's not about teaching the dog to overcome it's prey drive but teaching the dog to look to you for drive satisfaction (either food or prey drive depending on which is the strongest of the dog's drives). Why would a dog want to chance a rabbit when you have the prey item in your hand and have condition the dog to see you as the trigger instead of the rabbit or whatever? It's the same as the work I'm doing with my beagle at the moment, I actually find her harder to train than my Sibe, because she goes into 'drive' much more easily, any whiff of a scent and she's off. You come into contact with scents almost constantly but with dogs like Sibes there won't always be a prey item around. When she's on a scent I could shove food under her nose and she won't even realise it's there, she's so focused on the scent. It's taking a bit of work but we're getting there and now I can take her out and say the drive command word, she will practically be bouncing off the walls because she knows that obeying me = guaranteed drive satisfaction. Just remember that if your dog is more prey driven then food driven don't rely on food for training. ETA: I am training to a competition level too, will be interesting to see how long it takes us to get there. I'm hoping to compete in a trial by the end of the year but we'll see how we go. I have a friend who is training her Sibe to trialling level as well, will let you guys know when she enters a trial and how the dog goes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 oh bet that's interesting - let us know how you get on Bec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowusin Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 I have read everyones comments, and I just have to put my two cents in. I grew up with a dog kennel and my father had 150 dogs. Mainly pugs and dachshunds, but we also had a newfoundland, poodle, bulldog, yorkie, minature pincher, german shephard and a whole lot of other breeds. We obedience trained them, showed them, bred them and boarded dogs. I learned that every dog had it's own personality and what one dog could do another just might not be able to be taught to do as well. I don't truly believe that just because a dog is a husky or a working dog that they should be stereo typed as not being able to be trusted because they are known to be independant and not always trustworthy. My two are off leash all the time. They will sit on our stoop with us and watch a rabbit on our front lawn, but as long as we give the command leave it they will not budge. They will watch it like a hawk but will not get off the stoop to chase it. If they are on the sidewalk and start to walk to the street we give the command no street and they will not leave the sidewalk. They will walk to the edge of our property line but not go past it. We are always with them when they are off leash. I will admit that we do have the e-collar which we can use the high pitched beep on to reinforce our command, but we do not use the static shock part of it because we do not need to. We have had Cain since he was 9 weeks old and Frankie since he was 7 weeks old. Cain is 18 months old and Frankie is now 7 months old and they respond to us very well. They go to the dog park every nice day for at least an hour or two so they can get into full out runs and will even chase each other around the tree on our front lawn, but again will not run away and when we call them to us they come immediately.(If we are by a busy street or in a crowded area we will put them on leash for their safety) I know some people will say that they are still puppies and when they get older they will change, but I think that they just have good personalities for what we do with them. I think every breed can have the personality to not be trusted (not just huskys). I find it unfair that people constantly say to us that we are crazy to trust our boys just because they are huskys. I do think that we were very lucky to have found two terrific huskys, but we have also spent alot of time, love and patience in training them and will also admit that it will probably be a forever thing with us, but to us it is worth it because they bring us so much love and happiness. We were told we were crazy for getting Cain when we got him because he would never be able to be off leash and will be a digger and a runner. Cain has proven them wrong. He is not allowed to dig and as such does not, and he is a runner but only when we say he can run (mainly at the dog park or beach). Maybe because our two boys get alot of exercise everyday they are the way they are and do not need to run from us, I don't know for sure but I also wish that people would realize that not all huskys can't be trusted. People are amazed when they meet Cain & Frankie and ask us all the time how we got them to where they are today. I think with alot of consistency, love patience and training a husky can be trained to do anything. I don't mean to anger or insult anyone with what I just said and if I did I apologize, but it does bother me that people keep stereo typing all huskys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 I don't mean to anger or insult anyone with what I just said and if I did I apologize, but it does bother me that people keep stereo typing all huskys. no worries, you have 2 woonderful sibes like I said in my post, although it is well known that sibes and other dogs are not they typical breeds to be trustworthy off leash doesnt mean that it is impossible to have them off leash at all as some owners, like yourself, can take their sibe off leash with no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 I think with alot of consistency, love patience and training a husky can be trained to do anything. I don't mean to anger or insult anyone with what I just said and if I did I apologize, but it does bother me that people keep stereo typing all huskys. Unfortunately, over the past 15 years or so I have met several owners who would have said (and did say) exactly what you are saying. Their much loved huskies are no longer with them - killed on the road, permanently disappeared or in one case, shot by a farmer after savaging sheep. Every single one of those owners would have said word for word what you have said. Several of my dogs have exceptional recall - (100% so far) - but there is no way in the world that I would let them off lead in an unenclosed areas I know that however good their recall is, it is not and never will be 100% and I will never put my dogs at risk. There is a good reason why every single Siberian Husky organisation in the world recommends that Sibes be kept on lead in unenclosed areas - it is not stereotyping, it is common sense based on bitter and tragic experience. I hope and pray that you never have to experience what the owners I referred to above had to go through. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Snowusin... I know a couple of huskies that have been trained to have great reliable recall with low stim e-collar training Speediest recalls away from prey items like bush turkeys etc. I wouldn't let my Sibe off leash in an area that I didn't feel was safe or had too much risk of danger, although we train at an obedience club which is in an open field and sometimes do off leash work... although I am very confident of his ability to stay focused on me when in 'work' mode Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammie Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 i don't think it is a problem specifically with huskies, so long as a dog or indeed any animal has it's own mind and thoughts, you can never control it 100%, but you can get damn close...It is completely up to the handlers and owners wether they decide to put that faith in their dogs abilities and become lead free...I had my lab jumping through hoops for me, he'd do anything i asked of him, but even though i trusted him, knew he could recall extremely well, there was one occasion where he didn't come back, ran the other way and landed us in a whole heap of trouble with the neighbours...it is like a child, it only takes a split second and they are gone, or worse in danger. we all know everyone has their own opinions on this matter, and i respect those who feel they can trust their dog off lead, but for us it is lead all the way..i don't think i could bear the thought of that small chance of something going wrong, and Suka doesn't love us any less for keeping a lead on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqwidge Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Sammie, i agree with you, and with Mick...i would love to let Eika off but i would never take that chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamute Posted May 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 weight pulling... Great post Mick. I can see where you're coming from though Ian, I do let both my boys off lead when safe and am just waiting to get the attachment for my bike - so if you're ever in the dell - watch out for me screaming STOOPPPPPPPP lol I can't wait to work them on the bike Have you started with the weight pull training yet? Not yet, bit too early for him.... Watch this space...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 our dogs are lucky to be able to have an offleash romp around in a tennis court & a fully fenced field, sisko is too young to run around the field yet but she has a play around with the other 2 & her ball in the court, i do train them whilst in the court & sometimes they will come to me , other times they completely ignore me!!! , this is the only time they will get off leash wouldn't risk letting them off in an open area . They get to run in harness too in the cooler months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Do you own the tennis courts or pay so much to a gym/fitness/lesuire centre for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Ah had forgot about that Anne - we have a park nearby that has fenced in tennis courts and they're never locked will have to stop off there one evening and let them have a run about, there's only 2 doors as well so me and marc can be at either end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Do you own the tennis courts or pay so much to a gym/fitness/lesuire centre for them? No its in our recreation ground, the groundsman dosen't mind us letting our dogs off in there as its not used much anyway, other folks use it too @ times for their dogs they cannot let off the lead. we get quite a few folks come over & pet the dogs so have to keep an eye on them opening the gates. folks are quite good though & only come in when i have hold of the dogs 1st. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 sounds like an idea to me. Would be nice to have an area I can take my 3 to let them off and not worry so much about them running off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fazz_1982 Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Cool - I have only ever let the female off the lead (places like the beach etc) mainly because she practically follows the male everywhere. I did find though that she gotr "comfortable" with the freedom and started to drift further away from us. I then just called her to get her attention and started walking the opposite direction with the male and she ran after us. I also found that if she saw anything that she was interested in like another dog playing, someone elses ball or even a kite lol and she began to approach them, agaiin i started running the opposite direction making her choose the direction. She of course followed her brother I dont think I would ever risk letting them both off the lead at the same time since if one decides to run off, the other will follow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 I dont think I would ever risk letting them both off the lead at the same time since if one decides to run off, the other will follow! Hmmm, hadn't thought of that, good point lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 Cool - I have only ever let the female off the lead (places like the beach etc) mainly because she practically follows the male everywhere. I did find though that she gotr "comfortable" with the freedom and started to drift further away from us. I then just called her to get her attention and started walking the opposite direction with the male and she ran after us. I also found that if she saw anything that she was interested in like another dog playing, someone elses ball or even a kite lol and she began to approach them, agaiin i started running the opposite direction making her choose the direction. She of course followed her brother Marley was like that he would always follow Gizmo and Bandit if we let them off. Gizmo was always in the front. Im not sure who would do the following now with Marley now being Alpha. I dont think I would ever risk letting them both off the lead at the same time since if one decides to run off, the other will follow! thats very true!!! Learnt that the hard way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fazz_1982 Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 yeah i kind of learnt the hard way also - they escaped once out of the back garden - they stuck together luckily and took me a while to recall them BOTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malamute Posted June 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 I know it's an old nuggett but....... Last night outside the house...... [ame] [/ame] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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