Husky Development?

[sammie]

I just have a quick question about the development of sibes, Suka is 5mths old and his tail isn't yet curled over, when does this happen typically?

Thanks in advance and sorry if it is a stupid question

[Bec]

I just have a quick question about the development of sibes, Suka is 5mths old and his tail isn't yet curled over, when does this happen typically?

Thanks in advance and sorry if it is a stupid question

Depends what you mean, Sammie.

A husky's tail is different to other Spitz breeds like malamutes, Akitas and Samoyeds that curl over their back. A husky's tail should have a curve in it but it should not fully curl over, when it's up it should sit high with a like curve like it is in this pic here:

It shouldn't curl over like this (this is a malamute):

So, if you mean when does it curl over like the second pic does, the answer is that it shouldn't do. Their tails do get thicker and brushier as they get older and they do tend to hold it up more as they mature. When standing a husky's tail should be down.

[CanadianWolf]

so it shouldnt fully curl? what if it does.. it doesnt touch her back but it is what i call fully curled

[Sarah]

hmmmm, Kimba curls his tail too, i judge his mood by his tail, if it's curled he's happy and enjoying what he's doing, if it's down, he's not happy and if it's like in the first pic he's ok.

Will try and get some pics of it

Kaiser is also 5 months old and although his tail has started a bit to bush out, he doesn't curl it. It's always up and arched and wagging away though lol

Oh whilst on the subect of tails - do the majority of sibes as pups start off with a black spot oh their tail, both my boys did and have seen other member pics with this smudge / spot on as well??

(Sammie - not a stupid question in the slightest)

[raindog]

There is a brilliant analysis of the breed standard for Siberian Huskies on the Kossok Siberians site - http://www.kossok.com/kossok1a/standard1.html

The section on tails clarifies the issue.A curly tail is usually a sign of a construction fault - too short a back, for example, which is why it is regarded as an important fault as it would impede the dog's ability to work effectively.These are acceptable tails/tailsets:

and these are faulty tails/tailsets:

Having said that, having a faulty tailset here in the UK (where we only work our dogs for short distances) would only really affect you and your dogs if you wanted to show them or breed from them.

On the black spot thing - yes most (if not all), Sibes have this. Someone once told me that it marks the place where there used to be a scent gland, but I don't know whether that is actually true.

Mick

[Bec]

so it shouldnt fully curl? what if it does.. it doesnt touch her back but it is what i call fully curled

It shouldn't look like the mally's tail in the second pic I posted above. Purely from a conformation perspective. I'm sure someone like Mick will come along and correct me if I am wrong, but a Sibe should not hold their tail curled across their back like the dog in the second picture above.

That's not to say that the odd Sibe may not curl their tail, but it is not something I would expect to see in a purebred Siberian.

Sarah - the first pic I posted is hard to see.

If you have a look at this pic of Micha here, you can see his tail has a curve in it but it's not completely curled over like the mally in the pic I posted above.

He holds it up like that when he is alert, or when he is happy, but when he is standing normally it's down.

[Bec]

Whoops Mick we posted at the same time!

How commonly would you see incorrect tail set like the pictures you show above? We rarely see them here in Oz, and I generally find it a good way to pick if a dog has been bred by a BYB - I've never seen a pedigree Sibe with one.

[raindog]

Unfortunately they are increasingly common here in the UK. Even in the showring, I have seen Championship judges put up dogs with bad tailsets/tails. They wrongly assume a curly tail to be "cosmetic" when it is actually much more likely to be a construction fault.

In fact my first four Siberians all had pretty dodgy tails (back in the day when we were new to the breed and had a lot to learn about the breed standard) It's only as you get more experienced that you become more discriminating:

All our current dogs have the correct "graceful plume":

When they are working it streams out behind:

and when they are focussed (ie in the showring) , it hangs down gracefully

Mick

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

blazes tail curls quite abit (compared to the 1st pic n that) will get a pic on l8a after wrk 4 u all 2 c

[sammie]

Thanks so much for all the replies, i had no idea it was a fault if they curled over fully, Suka's tail mostly hangs down like in Mick's last picture, he rarely goes past 90 degrees to his spine. Thanks for the information

[Sarah]

wow excellent replies added to rep - i think Kimba has his tail curled too tightly, i took a video on our walk this morning, will upload it tonight when i get home then you can see

[siberian_wolf]

Great replies everyone

IMO:

There is no particular age when a dog should carry their tail in a certain position. A dogs tail is one of the most important parts of a dogs communication to us, other dogs and also used for balance purposes and helps distribute their weight evenly for the activity/exercise they are doing.

A dogs tail, along with combined signs (like facial expressions) is very important when it come to communicating with one another. For example if a dog wags his/her tail moving it side to side freely and loosely can mean happiness but if a dog wags his/her tail and keeps it very stiff and hardly moves this can be a sign of potential aggression.

I found this from a website:

In some ways, tail-wagging serves the same functions as our human smile, polite greeting, or nod of recognition. Smiles are social signals, and human beings seem to reserve most of their smiles for social situations, where somebody is around to see them. Sometimes, vicarious social situations, as when watching television or occasionally when thinking about somebody special, can trigger a smile. For dogs, the tail wag seems to have the same properties. A dog will wag its tail for a person or another dog. It may wag its tail for a cat, horse, mouse, or perhaps even a butterfly. But when the dog is by itself, it will not wag its tail to any lifeless thing. If you put a bowl of food down, the dog will wag its tail to express its gratitude to you. In contrast, when the dog walks into a room and finds its bowl full, it will approach and eat the food just as happily, but with no tail-wagging other than perhaps a slight excitement tremor. This is one indication that tail-wagging is meant as communication or language. In the same way that we don't talk to walls, dogs don't wag their tails to things that are not apparently alive and socially responsive.

A dog's tail speaks volumes about his mental state, his social position, and his intentions. How the tail came to be a communication device is an interesting story.

The dog's tail was originally designed to assist the dog in its balance. When a dog is running and has to turn quickly, it throws the front part of its body in the direction it wants to go. Its back then bends, but its forward velocity is such that the hindquarters will tend to continue in the original direction. Left unchecked, this movement might result in the dog's rear swinging widely, which could greatly slow its rate of movement or even cause the dog to topple over as it tries to make a high-speed turn. The dog's tail helps to prevent this. Throwing the tail in the same direction that the body is turning serves as a sort of counterweight, which reduces the tendency to spin off course. Dogs will also use their tails when walking along narrow surfaces. By deliberately swinging the tail to one side or the other in the direction opposite to any tilt in the body, the dog helps maintain its balance, much the same way a circus tightrope walker uses a balance bar. Quite obviously, then, the tail has important uses associated with specific movements. However, the tail is not particularly important on flat surfaces, when a dog is simply standing around or walking at normal speeds. At these times, it becomes available for other uses. Evolution again seized an opportunity and now adapted the tail for communication purposes.

It is something of a surprise to many people to learn that puppies don't wag their tails when they are very young. The youngest puppy I ever saw systematically wagging its tail was eighteen days old, and both the breeder and I agreed that this was quite unusual. Although there are some differences among the various breeds, the scientific data suggests that, on average, by thirty days of age, about half of all puppies are tail wagging, and the behavior is usually fully established by around forty nine days of age.

Why does it take so long for the puppy to start wagging its tail? The answer comes from the fact that puppies begin wagging their tails when it is necessary for purposes of social communication. Until they are about three weeks of age, puppies mostly eat and sleep. They are not interacting significantly with their littermates other than curling up together to keep warm as they sleep or crowding together to nurse. They are physically capable of wagging their tails at this time, but they don't.

By the age of six or seven weeks (when we start to see tail-wagging behaviors on a regular basis), the puppies are socially interacting with one another. Most of the social interactions in puppies consist of what psychologists call "play behaviors." It is through playing that puppies learn about their own abilities, how they can interact with their environment, and most important, how to get along with other individuals. A puppy learns that if it bites a littermate, it is apt to be bitten back, and perhaps the game it was playing might be terminated by its now angry playmate. It is at this point that the puppy also starts to learn dog language. It is not clear to what degree these emerging social communications are prewired, but learning is clearly needed to refine the use and interpretation of these signals. The pups learn to connect their own signals and the signals provided by their mother and their siblings with the behaviors that come next. They also begin to learn that they can use signals to indicate their intentions and to circumvent any conflicts. This is where and when the tail-wagging behavior begins.

One place where conflicts are likely to occur is during feeding. When a puppy wants to suckle its mother, it must come very close to its littermates as it crowds in to find her teats. Remember that this puppy is now coming close to the very same individuals that might have been nipping, jostling, or chasing him a few minutes earlier. To indicate that this is a peaceful situation, and to calm any fearful or aggressive response by the other puppies when they too are pushing toward the mother's teat, the puppy begins to wag its tail. Tail-wagging in the puppy then serves as a truce flag to its littermates. Later on, puppies will begin to wag their tails when they are begging food from the adult animals in their pack or family. The puppies come close, to lick the face of the adult, and they signal their peaceful intentions by tail-wagging. It thus becomes clear that the reason that very young puppies don't wag their tails is that they don't yet need to send appeasement signals to other dogs. When communication between dogs is needed, they rapidly learn the appropriate tail signals.

Tail language actually has three different channels of information: position, shape, and movement. Movement is a very important aspect of the signal, since dog's eyes are much more sensitive to movement than they are to details or colors. This makes a waving or wagging tail very visible to other dogs.

Evolution has used a few additional tricks to make the tails even more visible. Wild canines, like wolves, often have great bushy tails, which are easily seen at a distance. In addition, many tails are specially colored to facilitate recognition of tail signals. Often, the underside of the tail is lighter, to make the high-tailed signals quite visibly different from signals involving the tucking of tails into a lower position. Many canines will also have distinctive markings to make the tail tip more visible. Usually, there is a lightening toward the tail tip, or perhaps simply a white mark which defines the tip of the tail. In other canines, the tail tip is noticeably darker. Either of these two color contrasts helps to make the end of the tail more visible, and this make movement and position cues easier to recognize...."

[raindog]

For sibes and other northern dogs, the tail has yet another important purpose. When the dog is resting in extremely low temperatures, it curls up in the snow (the classic husky donut position) and breathes through its tail. This actually warms up the freezing air before the dog takes it into its lungs. An insufficiently furred tail won't do this job effectively.

Mick

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

blaze's tail touches his back - its not a very good pic tho sorry

[siberian_wolf]

thanks mick, completely forgot about that! Bandit does this sometimes at home (hope that dont mean its too cold )

This is him yesterday doing this (whilst pinching my seat too, lol). Not a perfect example as he hasnt covered his nose over with his tail but he does have his tail curled around his feet and then rested his nose on top.

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[CanadianWolf]

i tryed to make a video but i messed it up :mad: and now shes asleep lol

Sukas tail is like blazes.. not as puffy yet of course, im really currious if shes not showing dog because of this

[Sqwidge]

i can't see your pic Nix...i'll have to wait til i'm at work tomorrow. It's interesting isn't it?

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

heres the fb link for ya

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=93406&id=714381680&saved#/photo.php?pid=2256421&id=714381680

[Sarah]

here's my video from this morning, what do you think of Kimba's tail?

you can also see the black spot on kaisers tail as well lol

[ame]

[/ame]

[Bec]

Nix - in my rather novice eyes when it comes to looking at conformation, I don't see anything wrong with Blaze's tail - have a look at the pics Mick posted on the first page where you can see what is considered correct and incorrect tail carriage.

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

kimbas tail looks like blazes tail (he has a black mark on his tail too like kaiser lol)

ooh bec we post at same time lol blaze tail touches his back tho n looks like the plumey tail from micks post i think

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

heres some more (better) pics ov blazes tail lol

[Sarah]

awww yeah that's what Kimba's is like must be the werewolf in them lol

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

Yay 4 werewolves!

[Ice and Cripton]

I agree with Mick and Smeagle, In all the sibe books ive ever read, both Amercian and UK standard the tail can be down, straight, and up in a light curl, never tight, and i was always told it to be a fualt in the breed, breeds like akita's have a tight curl and huskies should never have this kind of tail...

Alaska and balto have a curl but it never touches their back >>> i'll put some up 2mz, here are some pics i found:

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