aksnowpeach Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Hi there everyone! I am really hoping I can get some positive feedback as well as some advice on the topic of training abused animals.Let me tell you the history of Kai. Kai was abused ever since he was a puppy. When he was born (in Poland) he was shipped to a family here in Germany. When they got him, he was forced to stay inside his kennel with only 5 minutes to go outside to use the bathroom and eat. For the first 2 years of his life he knew nothing but abuse. Once he started getting older, the abuser would kick him with his combat boots (yes, sadly, he was military) and throw him down the stairs when he didn't do what he was told. Once the man who did that to him got caught and reported (AND kicked out of the military) Kai was given to a friend of the man to be taken care of. That person used Kai to breed with their dalmation just for the profits of the puppies. Once their dog was pregnant, poor Kai was thrown out on the streets to fend for himself. He was starved, only eating small things he could get ahold of. One day a lady found him roaming the streets and started to feed him outside of her house. He hung around with her for a while but was not comfortable enough to stay, so he kept running away. She put ads in the paper about this "mystery dog" but nobody came to claim him. Finally she had enough and was going to take him to one of the local pounds when I ran across the ad in the paper. Already owning 1 husky, my heart went out to him and I contacted her to adopt him. (Fast forward to present day) I have owned him since June 2009 and have been trying to work with him. We have gotten over the fear of combat boots, fear of us hitting him, and fear of us taking his food away. He trusts us now, but it is very difficult to punnish him when he does naughty things. After some research I have come to the conclusion that the strongest tool I have for punnishment is my voice. When he does something naughty, I yell at him and tell him NO. We have come a long way, he really has improved, but there are still little things he does that show he is scared that we will hurt him. How can I prevent that? Or how can I help? My second question is about his aggression with other dogs. He is neutered, but he has this terrible aggression with other male dogs and refuses to play nice or even be nice to them. We had an issue and he bit me when he tried to go after another male dog who walked past us outside. I have started to muzzle train him and he walks beautifully with it on, pays no attention to other dogs that walk by, but if they get anywhere near him (like when my neighbors and I have doggy playtime) he gets very mean and tries to be "the man" of the neighborhood. Any advice for this as well? Hopefully this wasn't so confusing for you, and if you have any more questions please do ask! THANKYOU! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 what a sad journey ur boys been on so happy he has found u im sorry i dont have any advice for u i THINK my boy bingo was abused b4 he was a stray (he is afraid ov alot ov stuff u cant raise ur arm 2 scratch ur head near him without him flinching) but ive never had any aggression problems or anything with him sum1 on here will b able 2 help u tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiya Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 i don't have much advice regarding the training as i am very new myself, but one quick question comes to my mind regarding his aggression towards other males..... has he been fixed yet? regarding punishment, i would think in his case punishment isn't going to help things at all when he does something wrong. by punishing him you will continue to put fear in to him and that won't accomplish anything. instead of punishing, i would suggest "redirecting" the problem. for example, you catch him chewing on a shoe, give a "no" and then give him a toy to chew on. as he chews the toy, love him up. it's probably going to take a while, but will be worth it in the long run. additionally, you can only correct or redirect him if you catch him in the act. trying to correct him ten minutes after he has done something will accomplish nothing, he won't understand what you are trying to correct. again, i am new myself so take what i say with a grain of salt and i'm sure some of the more seasoned vetrans will chime in soon. lastly, congrats to taking in a big challenge like this, that is awesome of you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira26 Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Your Kai has truely been through the ringer the poor lad! It sounds like you have really made some differences in his behaviour since you have had him in that short amount of time which i think is awesome - I'm glad that you got him! I don't really have any advice for abused dogs as luckily I have never come across one but I really hope you find the advice you seek! I do however believe in consistancy, just be consistant in what your doing and you won't fail One thing I can think of for this situation is to really empasize when he is doing something good, treats fuss etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val (Zebedee) Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Jackie, you are one of the few who can see past a dog's problem & have a heart big enough to care & want to help. Kai hasn't had the greatest start in life but I'm sure he's realising now not all humans are bad. I think you realise you have a long road ahead of you but you are in this with your eyes wide open. I agree with Mark in that yelling at him when he's done wrong is keeping his fear to the fore, maybe a curt "No!" & removing him from the situation until he associates that with doing wrong & praising him highly (you know, that daft voice we all use when a pup does good?!) & reward him when he gets something right may help more. As for his aggression, like Nix, I can't help as my rescue is the total opposite, Diesel is too laid back for his own good! Only now, after 6 weeks with Myshka, is he learning to retaliate when she has bugs him! But then, he was picked on by a Jack Russell for 4 years in a previous home! There are some great people on here who may have experienced this or have come across having to deal with aggression & how to overcome it, I'm sure they'll post up when the come on the site. Well done you for taking Kai on & having the patience & ability to help him, xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksnowpeach Posted October 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 i don't have much advice regarding the training as i am very new myself, but one quick question comes to my mind regarding his aggression towards other males..... has he been fixed yet? QUOTE] Yes, as soon as I got him, my husband and I neutered him. He was marking his territory (spraying I think it's called?) everywhere my husband had been in my house and I just couldn't tolerate that. His aggression has changed since then, EXCEPT for the other male dog thing. I just wonder that maybe since I am showing him so much love, he is trying to protect me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiohusky Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 I have had experience in this issue. Male dogs can be very protective. Especially when it comes to other male dogs around his family or females. This aggression may never go away. Since he was abused and not socialized well he would act out his instincts of survival. On his own male dogs that he may have encountered are more aggressive than females and would have probable fought him for food and shelter. So it is a natural instinct for him to continue. If you are persistent and use a full muzzle when introducing him to new male dogs this may help him. My suggestion is to find one that is not hyper and introduce them on a regular basis for shot periods of time and when he shows no aggression with the muzzle on then try it with it off but be there to supervise them. Try this worked for most of our rescues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksnowpeach Posted October 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 My suggestion is to find one that is not hyper and introduce them on a regular basis for shot periods of time and when he shows no aggression with the muzzle on then try it with it off but be there to supervise them. Try this worked for most of our rescues. My neighbors have 2 very gentle GSD's (one male one female) and we've been doing little bits of "playing" together outside. We go on walks together and Kai could care less if he is there, but once we go in that backyard he just can't stand having that dog near him. The muzzle I have for him now is the "softie" muzzle and it's been working wonders. I really like it because the one time we introduced them again Kai tried to attack that dog but no harm was done. Thankyou so much for that info though, I will keep all of that in mind as I continue to train Kai! :grinning-smiley-003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demiurge Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 but once we go in that backyard he just can't stand having that dog near him. Is he otherwise well-behaved? If so, how about playing nicely, and taking the GSD into the backyard. Preferably the GSD can stay on a far end. Bring yours in (gate? door from house?) and just have him sit. If he goes bonkers, back to other side of the gate/door. Try again. If he gets just inside and sits nicely, it's time for a treat. I'd try it simple like that, with as much distance between then in the yard as possible, and slowly working up to closer encounters. You know him best, so slowly could be over a few hours, days, weeks, or months. I don't have a ton of experience, but that would be my approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca_&_me Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Well i have never seen a husky that was as fearful as Kai...but along with your muzzle training maybe you should also try this: Since kai seems to have so much trouble feeling comfortable with male dogs being close to him, when you meet your friends for playtime you should practice having him relax while the shephard sits quietly nearby. By this i mean...still use your muzzle but instead of letting him romp and get stirred up...try having him lay down. If he insists he wont lay down this means the other male is too close and you should have the other person back off a few feet...then try again to get him to lay down and relax. When he does lay down and relax you should use long strokes from the top of his head to the top of the tail to pat him and also talk to him softly. They often find this relaxing like a massage. If the other male starts off at 15-20 feet away from him that first day, then each week you should tell them to come 1 foot closer to you and Kai and then have their male dog lay down. This should help him learn to relax and understand that this male has no interest in fighting with him, stealing from him, etc. For this to work he must be able to relax and must be laying down. It can also help him to feel more comfortable because you become the protector instead of him. This will take awhile but if you try it and can get it to work, he will hopefully learn to not always see other dogs as an imidiate threat. Do this exercise as much as twice a week for up to 20 minutes a session. Only use the male dog he knows though, no strangers, and dont be forceful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksnowpeach Posted October 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Thankyou for the great help! I really appreciate that, I talked to my neighbor and she is willing to work with me during the day when nobody else is outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca_&_me Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Hi again...just wanted to add one thing. There is a guy who has out training videos that might help you. He does whispering like Cesar millan but was doing it way before cesar. He teaches you to use subtle but very effective body language to help you teach your dog what you want. Yelling or raising your voice might workl temporarily with Kai but in the long run he'll just be scared of you. The videos you are looking for are by Paul Owens and not cesar milan. You can get the video he did and the book by him from Amazon.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca_&_me Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 No problem at all I hope my suggestion brings kai alittle closer to you and to having the nicer life you are trying to give him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Good luck with everything Jackie - please keep us posted of your progress Maybe start up a Kai's diary on here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val (Zebedee) Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Great ideas to try, Erika & Demiurge, hopefully Kai will react to this positively & quickly. I love the diary idea, too, Sarah, you can see the progress made with Kai over time. Rep added, guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksnowpeach Posted October 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Oh cool, I really like that diary idea! How would I go about doing that, just start a new thread under the training section? Thanks guys! I really look forward to starting this, I think it will really help me understand training Kai and also be benificial to know if what I am doing is right or wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Oh cool, I really like that diary idea! How would I go about doing that, just start a new thread under the training section? Yup - just pop it in there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidjk Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 well done you for caring for this dog. i have heard it said that if a male is left intact untill he is 2-3 years old then it is pointles having them "done" i would sugest a dog psycologist, because he will be able to point out the subtle signs of agressions and to block it before it becomes obvious agression (like barking and growling) once you know how its easy, but its knowing how to begin with. good luck to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 I would suggest it is nothing like that at all, but that he has probably built up a fear towards other dogs and feels he has to get in first before they get him (just a wild guess - by no means is that a diagnosis, LOL!). When you have a fear aggressive dog it is always about building their confidence and teaching them that they have options other than aggression. You want to build not only their confidence but their respect for you. Micha is fear aggressive and he has learned that instead of taking charge when he sees another dog and completely ignoring me, that he should look to me because he knows I will take charge of the situation. He has respect for me knows I will step up so he doesn't have to. Training an aggressive dog is all about their critical distance. How close does he have to be to another dog before it triggers him to show signs of aggression? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksnowpeach Posted October 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Let me give you 2 examples.. 1. We were on a walk one day and a lady walking a pitbull walked past me and I think each male dog was trying to protect their "female" so when we walked past eachother (Kai on my far side, the other dog on her far side, not next to eachother) Kai lunged across me to attack the other dog and when I pulled him back he bit my leg. There was something about that dog he didn't like so he was instantly on edge. 2. My neighbor has 2 GSD (female and male) and he is fine with the male until he comes over to sniff him or get too close to him, then I think he feels like he is being dominated and gets all growly. And that GSD is a neutered 9 month old pup. To me it seems that unless that other dog is a complete threat to myself or him, he wont be growly or aggressive unless the dog gets too close to him. There are 3 dogs on post (all male of course) that he does NOT like whatsoever. All he has to do is catch glance of them and he goes into instant "asshole" mode. (pardon my language). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Let me give you 2 examples.. 1. We were on a walk one day and a lady walking a pitbull walked past me and I think each male dog was trying to protect their "female" so when we walked past eachother (Kai on my far side, the other dog on her far side, not next to eachother) Kai lunged across me to attack the other dog and when I pulled him back he bit my leg. There was something about that dog he didn't like so he was instantly on edge. 2. My neighbor has 2 GSD (female and male) and he is fine with the male until he comes over to sniff him or get too close to him, then I think he feels like he is being dominated and gets all growly. And that GSD is a neutered 9 month old pup. To me it seems that unless that other dog is a complete threat to myself or him, he wont be growly or aggressive unless the dog gets too close to him. There are 3 dogs on post (all male of course) that he does NOT like whatsoever. All he has to do is catch glance of them and he goes into instant "asshole" mode. (pardon my language). Dog aggressive dogs don't always react to every dog they see. Micha is fine with some dogs; he shows great manners and body language and wants to engage and play with them. Other dogs he can spot a mile off and his body language will change instantly. He is fine with dogs who are calm and non-threatening, but reacts to dogs that are in your face, dominant etc. Micha reacts to these dogs because they challenge him and make him feel threatened; they create a fearful response in him and this triggers aggression. He was attacked a few times when he was young which is why he developed fear aggression and thought the way to deal with the kind of dogs who attacked him would be to get in before they do. Watch his body language carefully when you spot a dog you know he will react to. When he spots it and his body language starts to change (look for early signs like hackles up, posturing, mouth closed, eyes fixated on the other dog, tail up and waving slowly side to side etc) you know that is his critical distance. That is, the distance he has to be to a dog before he reacts to it. We should always set our dogs up to win, not to fail, so when you see him start to react to another dog turn and walk him away from the other dog so he is no longer in that critical distance that triggers aggression. Get him to calm down and focus on you, reward him when he is looking at you and no longer at the other dog. The key to training an aggressive dog is to work on getting their focus outside of that critical distance, and once they are working well, slowly slowly increase the distance they are to the other dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 are you at all fearful or nervous of pitbulls? because if you are he may pick up on that and become fearful/nervous himself and feel he has to protect himself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksnowpeach Posted October 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 No, half the dogs I grew up with were pitbulls, my sister has 2 of them! He never ceases to suprise me though, today when we went on our walk, when he saw someone else in the neighborhood playing outside with their puppy (they weren't anywhere near us!) he started barking like crazy at him in a very mean "ROOROOROOROO" type of way. His ears were flat against his head too! That I have actually never seen before, usually his ears are straight up and alert. Sometimes I feel like I don't know my own dog! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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