Ice and Cripton Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 http://siberians.ru/ Its in Russia and she breeds sibes, dont really know what to look for, but just wondering if she looks good? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 why you thinking of taking a trip lol ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatih Sultan Mehmet Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 thanks....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted July 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 why you thinking of taking a trip lol ? yeah lol, i fancy catching a trip with my two pulling me the whole way!!! Just wondering, she seems really good, there is always shipping my friend:cool: thanks....... meaning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 noooooooooooooooo dont be mean , dont ship the poor thing , it would be alll alone , and lonley , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted July 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 noooooooooooooooo dont be mean , dont ship the poor thing , it would be alll alone , and lonley , Jules!!! It will probably catch a nice nap in their cosy crate with their fav toy:rolleyes: lol happens all the time:p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 would be a bloody long nap lol, even taz wouldnt sleep for that long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 It's very hard to say just off a website! You know nothing of their reputation and other peoples experiences from buying a pup from that breeder. To be honest IMO I'd say you'd be better sticking to one in the UK that is recommended to you, or you know yourself! Remeber to bring a pup from abroad they must have all the vacs, and be 6 months old!!! Do you know if the dogs that have bred the litter have been hip scored and eyes tested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberianandy Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 to be honest i don't think much of their site bit hard to find info youre looking for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 It is impossible to tell from the website whether they are "good" or not and there is very little information on pedigrees etc. One thing which would make me pause is that including the litter they have planned for October 2009, that makes FOUR litters in a 12 month period. To me that screams commercial breeder at the very least. I cannot see any justification whatever (apart from money) for anyone to breed at such a frequency. We have imported several dogs from Europe - two from France, one from Hungary, three from Romania and one coming soon from Spain. We imported those dogs because we specifically wanted dogs from the particular bloodlines. Without pedigrees it is difficult to see exactly what the bloodlines of this breeder's dogs are, but from the photos they don't look worth the investment of time, effort, money and worry that importing involves. Just my opinion! Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 Mick - if you click on the pictures under where it says "our kids" it gives you their pedigrees - few names jump out over and over again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 Well sais Mick! Its a bit different importing for breed lines and i'm sure you get info on reputation before importing! Anyone can build a nice website, doesnt mean anything other than that!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 I will be honest, Ive not looked at the website. When you mention the breeder is from Russia I have a few questions you may want to ask yourself first, how are you intening on picking out a puppy? How do you know that mum isnt taken away from pups too early? How do you know they are a reputable breeer? How do you know they are actually breeders? How are you going to bring the pup home? How will you know that you are actually getting a sibe and not a completely different breed? How do you know if they have done any health tests/hip scores on the Dam and Sire? If you get the pup imported, how will you know they will actually deliver the pup? How are you intending to pay for the pup? There is ALOT to consider when thinking about getting another dog when you get one from your own country but you add another country to it and your list of things to think about increases dramatically along with the risks involved! There are plenty of reputable breeders right here in the UK and IMO I would go to get a puppy from them not from another country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted July 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 Thanks guys, i know what your saying, hence why im asking, i actually prefer the American sibes; http://www.maskaradesiberians.com/ What about this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted July 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 I will be honest, Ive not looked at the website. When you mention the breeder is from Russia I have a few questions you may want to ask yourself first, how are you intening on picking out a puppy? How do you know that mum isnt taken away from pups too early? How do you know they are a reputable breeer? How do you know they are actually breeders? How are you going to bring the pup home? How will you know that you are actually getting a sibe and not a completely different breed? How do you know if they have done any health tests/hip scores on the Dam and Sire? If you get the pup imported, how will you know they will actually deliver the pup? How are you intending to pay for the pup? There is ALOT to consider when thinking about getting another dog when you get one from your own country but you add another country to it and your list of things to think about increases dramatically along with the risks involved! There are plenty of reputable breeders right here in the UK and IMO I would go to get a puppy from them not from another country. I can appreciate all of this, i was very dubious aswell, reputable breeders today have contracts that ensure both parties agree and follow through their end of the contract. I did see some names in their pedigrees which belong to some very good America breeders so i could check up on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 Why do you want a sibe thats bred in america? What is it in particular that you prefer an american dog over a british? whats the reason behind not getting a british bred dog? There are plenty of very good and respected breeders here in the UK, u dont need to foot the cost of import, and you get to meet the dog you are taking home rather than a random puppy just appearing at your door!!!! There are plenty of people who could point you in the right direction of a good breeder, with the lines suitable for what you want the dog to do. Are you wanting a woking dog, showing dog or pet???? And at the end of the day all your seeing again is a website....not the situation in which the dog is bred and raised Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 I would say the same about the other site too, you do have to be extremely careful when getting a puppy overseas, you're buying blindfolded really. If its the AKC standard you prefer maybe speak to a few breeders in the UK and see if they could recommend you anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 I've bought a dog interstate before without seeing the parents or meeting the breeder (I talked to her for several hours and met her the day we picked the pup up). It can be done if you do your research and know the breed well enough to know which breeder is reputable and which lines you are keen on. I also know a fair few breeders who have four or sometimes more litters a year and are still ethical and reputable and not 'commercial breeders'. My bitch's breeder probably breeds about that many litters a year, she's been breeding for more than 30 years and is a judge too - she's very well respected and always keeps a pup from each litter to run on as well as sending others to show homes. She doesn't breed for commercial gain. Over the years she's imported dogs from the UK too which can cost upwards of $10,000. She breeds for the betterment of the breed, the difference is that she is able to have more litters and more dogs than some other breeders as she has the time and space to have more dogs. Four litters a year does not make her a commercial breeder nor does it make her unethical. She has enough dogs to breed much more often if commercial gain was the reason behind her breeding dogs. We have a lot of puppy farmers here, they are the ones with litters constantly on the ground, breeding 100s or 1000s of dogs a year, they are commercial breeders - not the registered, reputable and ethical ANKC breeders who health test all their breeding dogs, have planned breeding program, show their dogs and compete in other dog sports, only home dogs to the perfect homes and will take back any pup they bred if they need to do so, who breed four or so litters a year. Some breeders are able to run on more dogs than others, I don't have a problem with a breeder breeding four or so litters a year as long as they check all the other boxes that make a reputable breeder. Some of the top show and working kennels breed four litters or more a year. Besides the fact that these breeders will run on dogs from each litter, they are putting well bred pups in good pet homes. I am happy to see reputable breeders having more litters, the demand is there for the majority of breeds. I have a friend who is a stafford breeder and she is constantly trying to find litters from reputable breeders to refer puppy buyers too, so they don't have to wait years for a well bred pup or end up going to a BYBer or puppy farmer because there aren't enough reputable breeders breeding dogs. I'm not saying that the person in the OP's link is reputable, I haven't even looked at her website... I just wanted to respond to the comments that four litters a year mean someone is an unreputable commercial breeder - that is certainly not always the case. I am happy to encourage reputable breeders to breed more, we need more well bred pups out there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted July 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 I prefer the American sibes, and here the whole shipping and quarantine cost roughly 2700!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 I prefer the American sibes, and here the whole shipping and quarantine cost roughly 2700!!! IMO... it's not worth it unless you were a showie and a breeder and were looking at importing to improve your blood lines. If you like the look of the American dogs, I'd do your research and find a UK breeder you like and approach them about buying a show dog. That way, you will be spending much less, and can use that pup to see if you like showing and get a better understanding of the breed and the breed standard. Then if you're serious you can look at importing a dog, as you'd then have a better understanding of the breed and what you did and didn't like etc. It's a lot of money, time and effort to spend if you're still pretty new to sibes in terms of showing/breeding. I wouldn't spend that money and go to all that time and effort just for a pet. ETA: from previous threads, I thought you preferred the working line look of some of the UK Sibes? Or am I just losing it lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazz Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 It is impossible to tell from the website whether they are "good" or not and there is very little information on pedigrees etc. One thing which would make me pause is that including the litter they have planned for October 2009, that makes FOUR litters in a 12 month period. To me that screams commercial breeder at the very least. I cannot see any justification whatever (apart from money) for anyone to breed at such a frequency. We have imported several dogs from Europe - two from France, one from Hungary, three from Romania and one coming soon from Spain. We imported those dogs because we specifically wanted dogs from the particular bloodlines. Without pedigrees it is difficult to see exactly what the bloodlines of this breeder's dogs are, but from the photos they don't look worth the investment of time, effort, money and worry that importing involves. Just my opinion! Mick Ditto that! It's pretty hard to determine if a breeder is a good breeder or not, just from a Web site. If I see a Web site that touts Champion after Chanpion, litter after litter, I get real turned off real quick. When we were looking for a Husky late last summer, I came upon several sites. Initially, they had a lot of glitz, looked pretty slick. But you sometimes have to read between the lines. One breeder had about 12 Champions out of his large kennel. He also had a memorial page for all the dogs from his kennel that had passed on. I called the breeder and we spoke for about 45 minutes. His dogs were drop dead gorgeous. I was that interested in purchasing a Husky from him, until through our conversation it came out that his dogs average age is 7 to 8 years before they die. He was so intent on breeding for a specific characteristic in his Huskies, that he completely ignored genetic weakness and health issues. Another Web site that I visited, was located in one of the northern plains states in the US. They had brand new kennels, with air conditioned and heated buldings. Separate building for the males, separate building for the females, separate buidling for the moms with pups. This breeder's Web site is awsome, but reading between the lines, it became real apparent, this was nothing more than a high priced, high class puppy mill. They planned numerous litters in a 12-month period. They'd even take deposits on upcoming litters. Deposits were non-refundable. I don't have a problem with the non-refundable part, but not to crazy about putting a deposit down for a yet-to-be-born puppy. The Web site the breeder we bought Zoya from, was not glitzy, some of the pages were off center a bit, but the wealth of information on Huskies, the problems you have to be prepared for, the issues that are unique to the breed, was great. They did not have any champions, in fact, they don't show. But they really made an effort to inform about the breed. I had to provide a letter of reference from our vet in order to purchase Zoya. They were that concerned that their pups go to homes where they will be well cared for. That's the kind of breeder to me, that is a good breeder. One that is genuinely concerned more about the breed, than any show, or making a quick buck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 I still fail to see how four litters in 12 months makes someone a commercial breeder, maybe I am missing something or it is somehow different in the UK. Let's take my bitch's breeder for example. Her pups are $800 each. The breed (not Siberians) averages 4-6 pups a litter. So let's take the average and say she has five pups in four litters throughout the year. She keeps at least one from each litter, so let's assume for the sake of the example that the other four pups are sold at $800 as they go to pet homes (there would be occasions where she gives pups to friends to show or gives one to the owner of the stud dog). That's $3,200 that she would get from the sale of the pups in each litter. Anyone whose raised a litter would know how expensive it can be, so take a fair chunk of that off for the cost of raising pups, vet fees for the bitch and pups, vaccinations, puppy packs for the pet owners, stud dog fee if she didn't use one of her own etc. So if she has four litters in the year that's a grand total of $12,800 she would get from the sale of the pups. That's in Australian dollars, so just over six thousand pounds. I don't know many people who would classify that as enough money to live on or enough to classify someone as a commercial breeder - she certainly won't be paying her bills on $12,800 a year that's for sure! Keeping in mind how much money she would spend travelling to shows both in her state and interstate, the cost of raising and caring for her show and breeding dogs, show entry costs, importing dogs, etc etc. The plus side is that with those four litters she's put twelve well bred, beautiful tempered, purebred pups in deserving pet homes, as well as continuing her breeding program and contributing positively to the breed. Like I said earlier I have no problem with the good, reputable and ethical breeders breeding more often. In fact I encourage it as we have the demand for well bred pups but in majority of breeds we do not have supply to meet that demand. And I'm not talking about the people who want pups and wouldn't be suitable - there are MANY potential puppy buyers being turned away by breeders or put on lengthy waiting lists that would make great dog owners, because the good breeders don't breed to meet pet market demand. My breeder doesn't either, as she breeds for herself first and foremost, but I'm not going to judge her or any other reputable breeder purely because they breed more than once every year or so. With the number of pedigree dogs being purchased in decline, we need more well bred purebred dogs from good breeders in pet homes, and more ethical breeders out there who do the right thing and contribute to the breed in a positive way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazz Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 For a reputable breeder to produce four liters per year, every year, would require a minimum of eight females in the kennel. A bitch comes in season twice a year (on average). Having a litter of pups, drains a lot of resources from the mother. A reputable breeder should take a female that has had a litter, out of the loop for a year to enable the female to recoup and get back in shape. Continually breeding a bitch every time she comes in season is detrimental to the animal, and to the breed. A reputable breeder will also not breed a female or a male, until they reach two years of age, so they can be medically certified for hips and eyes. A reputable breeder will also stop breeding a female once they reach seven years of age, unless the animal is medically determined to be fit for pregnancy. Upping the supply to meet demand can negatively affect a breed. In the US, it happened with Golden Retrievers, Cocker Spaniels, German Shepherds, just to name a few. A reputable breeder does not go for quantity, but for quality. There is so much more to breeding than producing puppies. The study of genetics and bloodlines is both time consuming and critical to quality pups. Just putting a female and a male of the same breed together does not always produce the desired results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 For a reputable breeder to produce four liters per year, every year, would require a minimum of eight females in the kennel. A bitch comes in season twice a year (on average). Having a litter of pups, drains a lot of resources from the mother. A reputable breeder should take a female that has had a litter, out of the loop for a year to enable the female to recoup and get back in shape. Continually breeding a bitch every time she comes in season is detrimental to the animal, and to the breed. A reputable breeder will also not breed a female or a male, until they reach two years of age, so they can be medically certified for hips and eyes. A reputable breeder will also stop breeding a female once they reach seven years of age, unless the animal is medically determined to be fit for pregnancy. And...? There are large show/breeding kennels out there that have that number of bitches at any one time. And whose to say the breeder has the same eight bitches all the time - I know many kennels where breeders share bitches and dogs, have bitches bought back to have a litter, rehome bitches after one or two litters to pet homes etc. Or have bitches on joint ownership terms which means any litter that bitch has is registered under the breeders prefix. Eight bitches bred under the breeders prefix does not automatically mean the breeder has eight bitches in their yard. Once again why is there an assumption that breeders cannot breed more than one or two litters a year and not be reputable? Sure, there are those out there who breed large numbers of litters and aren't reputable but you also can't assume that ALL breeders who breed more than a set number of litters each year is automatically unethical or breeding for commercial purposes. Who is the authority who sets the magic number of litters that make the difference between a reputable breeder and a so called "commercial" breeder? Although I do fail to see how breeding four litters a year can make someone a commercial breeder, four litters a year hardly makes someone a puppy farmer. And what about kennels where breeders have multiple breeds? They could have three different breeds they breed and show, and produce one to two litters per year per breed. Are they breeding for commercial gain too, if they only have one or two litters per breed? Once again there are a quite a few very reputable show/breeding kennels that are larger and do have the resources to breed more than a litter or two a year, their dogs are still in high demand and they still have waiting lists for their pups and have no problems putting them in good homes (be they pet/show/working etc). Upping the supply to meet demand can negatively affect a breed. In the US, it happened with Golden Retrievers, Cocker Spaniels, German Shepherds, just to name a few. A reputable breeder does not go for quantity, but for quality. I never said that breeders should breed quantity over quality. I said we need more QUALITY breeders breeding more QUALITY dogs. No matter which way you look at it we do not have enough reputable breeders breeding good dogs, we should support the breeders who are breeding quality dogs and encourage those who are interested in breeding good dogs to learn more. I guess I just struggle to understand the logic behind frowning upon breeders who do all the right things, yet breed a litter or two more than the next person because they have the time/space/resources to do so. I know that some breeders will breed one or two litters a year because of space and resources and that's fine - but my problem is that if someone can breed more and cope with it doing it all properly why judge them as doing the wrong thing? Why is it bad to be a reputable breeder who breeds great quality dogs but also be a larger kennel with the capacity to breed 3-4 litters a year? Maybe it's different in other countries but we still have larger show and breeding kennels here who do produce good quality dogs and breed 3-4 times or so a year. We also have puppy farmers who breed dogs as a commercial business and they are nothing like the breeders I am referring to, we're talking about 100s or 1000s of dogs bred each year and sold online or shipped off to supply pet stores etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 For me, part of being a reputable, ethical breeder is that the main motivation for breeding is to produce a puppy for YOU - any puppies that are produced in excess of YOUR puppy are a bonus. A breeder whose aim is to produce puppies for the market - even if they only have one litter each year, is, in my view, a commercial breeder. The rescue crisis in Siberians here in the UK is a direct result of breeders creating puppies for the market rather than for themselves. Good, reputable, ethical breeders tend to spend more time trying to educate people about the realities of living with the breed and dissuading people from buying pups than they do trying to sell them. Of course if you are a commercial breeder, it is better to be a commercial breeder of good quality dogs than poor quality ones, but you are still a commercial breeder. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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