Sabien&Abs Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Sabien is my first ever dog and since having him I have watched Cesar Milan and read various dog books. They all talk about the pack and one member of the pack being the Alpha. We have not had any issues with Sabien's behaviour (apart from some counter surfing when he first came to live with us but this has stopped now). What I am curious about is how I can determine by his behaviour what is affection and waht is dominant/submissive behaviour and I suppose where I fit in in our pack. I am the one who grooms him and I was told that because I do this I am (as they nicely put it) his 'bitch'. Would this be the case? Also he does not sleep sit on the sofa apart from when he comes onto the sofa to sit next to me to have cuddles/fuss. He never does this with my OH so does that mean Sabien sees himself and my OH as above me in the pack? Also since being at the vets yesterday (didn't have his op, has to go back for that tomorrow so god knows how he will be when he returns and they have actually done something to him!) he whimpers and cries every time I walk past him while he is on his bed, but doesn't to my OH and he is now crying because I am not in the same room as him. Why is doing this only to me and will I be making it worse by going and seeing to him when he does cry? Thanks xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseWillow&Dexter Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I've never heard of anyone saying if you groom the dog then he will see you as his bitch... I think some people go a bit overboard on the whole alpha thing, it doesn't take much to be the alpha you just need to put yourself first, you make the rules, if you want him to go out tell him to go out. If your worried that he sees himself as above you in the pack take some extra time and make sure your the one that feeds him and trains him so you are the one calling the shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabien&Abs Posted August 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I've never heard of anyone saying if you groom the dog then he will see you as his bitch... I think some people go a bit overboard on the whole alpha thing, it doesn't take much to be the alpha you just need to put yourself first, you make the rules, if you want him to go out tell him to go out. If your worried that he sees himself as above you in the pack take some extra time and make sure your the one that feeds him and trains him so you are the one calling the shots. Thanks Rose. Thinking about it I am the one who feeds him everyday and I am the consistent one out of me and my OH when it comes to setting and sticking to rules and boundaries (drives me mad when my OH does not stick to a rule we have agreed on). I guess I am maybe reading too much into it after all of the reading I have done and have got too hung up on the subject (when I get something new or am thinking about getting something new I tend to research, research, research, think I may be a bit of an obsessive ). He is a lovely dog, with no behaviour issues apart from the whimpering and crying at the moment if I am not in his sight today due to being at the vets yesterday! I don't think he does see himself as above me, but I am struggling to understand why all of the crying and whimpering today seems to be focussed at me and not my OH. I would have thought he would have been like that with both of us. The person who made the comment about me being his 'bitch' for grooming him is probably not the most reliable person anyway and at the end of the day he needs grooming, I enjoy doing it and Sabien enjoys it too, so who cares!! xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elenamarie Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I've never heard of anyone saying if you groom the dog then he will see you as his bitch... I think some people go a bit overboard on the whole alpha thing, it doesn't take much to be the alpha you just need to put yourself first, you make the rules, if you want him to go out tell him to go out. If your worried that he sees himself as above you in the pack take some extra time and make sure your the one that feeds him and trains him so you are the one calling the shots. Frankly whomever said the groomer is the dog's bitch is in desperate need of education. What a ridiculous notion! If you make and enforce the rules of life, and make sure your dog's needs are met at all times, the dog will see you as the "alpha." Being the leader doesn't mean duking it out with the dog or anything like that. It simply means that you make the rules and the rules WILL be obeyed, you provide the food/shelter/affection/security and the dog doesn't need to worry about those things. I agree, Rose--some people take the whole alpha stuff waaaaaaaaaaaay too far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elenamarie Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Thanks Rose. Thinking about it I am the one who feeds him everyday and I am the consistent one out of me and my OH when it comes to setting and sticking to rules and boundaries (drives me mad when my OH does not stick to a rule we have agreed on). I guess I am maybe reading too much into it after all of the reading I have done and have got too hung up on the subject (when I get something new or am thinking about getting something new I tend to research, research, research, think I may be a bit of an obsessive ). He is a lovely dog, with no behaviour issues apart from the whimpering and crying at the moment if I am not in his sight today due to being at the vets yesterday! I don't think he does see himself as above me, but I am struggling to understand why all of the crying and whimpering today seems to be focussed at me and not my OH. I would have thought he would have been like that with both of us. The person who made the comment about me being his 'bitch' for grooming him is probably not the most reliable person anyway and at the end of the day he needs grooming, I enjoy doing it and Sabien enjoys it too, so who cares!! xx About the whimpering, if Sabien is feeling insecure he may need some reassurance from you. He may need you to help him readjust after his world was upset by going to the vet. But it most certainly isnt because Sabien thinks you're his slave. He's focused on you because you are his primary caregiver, you are the person he looks to for security, etc. That's a GOOD thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I will preface this by saying that while I do think dominance exists in dogs, IMO a truly dominant dog is rare. I'm not a Cesar fan. Not everything our dogs do is about dominance. If a dog is happy to have you groom him, IMO it can be a good sign the dog is comfortable with you. If the dog values your attention and wants it the more than other peoples', IMO that is an indication that the dog values your attention the most - definitely not to do with dominance! IMO not only are a lot of Cesar's methods dangerous but they make dog owners paranoid that everything their dogs do is about "dominance". There is so much more to our dogs than "dominance!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elenamarie Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I will preface this by saying that while I do think dominance exists in dogs, IMO a truly dominant dog is rare. I'm not a Cesar fan. Not everything our dogs do is about dominance. If a dog is happy to have you groom him, IMO it can be a good sign the dog is comfortable with you. If the dog values your attention and wants it the more than other peoples', IMO that is an indication that the dog values your attention the most - definitely not to do with dominance! IMO not only are a lot of Cesar's methods dangerous but they make dog owners paranoid that everything their dogs do is about "dominance". There is so much more to our dogs than "dominance!" Couldn't agree more. I haven't seen much of Cesar but I have read a lot of people who seem to believe that the dog is just waiting for a chance to become Hitler. Sheesh! Provide a dog with his needs and the dog will live happily as a dog. It's as simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabien&Abs Posted August 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 About the whimpering, if Sabien is feeling insecure he may need some reassurance from you. He may need you to help him readjust after his world was upset by going to the vet. But it most certainly isnt because Sabien thinks you're his slave. He's focused on you because you are his primary caregiver, you are the person he looks to for security, etc. That's a GOOD thing! Looking at it like that makes sense. Out of the two of us I am the one who provides the majority of his care, to be honest all my partner does is walk him in the morning so it would likely be me that he would seek reassurance from. He is not normally like this so will fuss over him as much as I and he likes to make him feel better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elenamarie Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Looking at it like that makes sense. Out of the two of us I am the one who provides the majority of his care, to be honest all my partner does is walk him in the morning so it would likely be me that he would seek reassurance from. I've learned that Sibes are very much like children. Since you do the caring for Sabien of course he's going to come to you when he feels insecure, afraid, etc. just like a child looks for his mommy when he's afraid, insecure, etc. It really is that simple, I think. He is not normally like this so will fuss over him as much as I and he likes to make him feel better That's the ticket! Hope all goes well with the vet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabien&Abs Posted August 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I will preface this by saying that while I do think dominance exists in dogs, IMO a truly dominant dog is rare. I'm not a Cesar fan. Not everything our dogs do is about dominance. If a dog is happy to have you groom him, IMO it can be a good sign the dog is comfortable with you. If the dog values your attention and wants it the more than other peoples', IMO that is an indication that the dog values your attention the most - definitely not to do with dominance! IMO not only are a lot of Cesar's methods dangerous but they make dog owners paranoid that everything their dogs do is about "dominance". There is so much more to our dogs than "dominance!" Cesar Milan does tend to focus a lot on dominance and the whole alpha thing now that I think about it. He seems to suggest as well that if your dog asks for something and you give it then he/she is dominating you but of course they are going to ask,they have needs that need to be met. It's great to get other views from experienced owners being a new dog owner rather than seeing stuff from one point of view/method Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 For day to day stuff with my dogs I like to think of NILIF, nothing in life is free. I won't have a dog that 'bugs' me all the time, if they want something they have it on my terms but that's something different to simply slapping a dominance label on the dog simply because it learns the best way to get a reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I think its more about giving your dog boundaries and structure, they have to know what they can and cant do. @Bec its all dependant on what your definition of dominance is, to me its a dog that does not know whos in charge, doesn't have boundaries, etc etc. I don't mind cesar, I enjoy the program and he does seem to get results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elenamarie Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Cesar Milan does tend to focus a lot on dominance and the whole alpha thing now that I think about it. He seems to suggest as well that if your dog asks for something and you give it then he/she is dominating you but of course they are going to ask,they have needs that need to be met. It's great to get other views from experienced owners being a new dog owner rather than seeing stuff from one point of view/method That's just ridiculous. A dog asks to go outside to potty, you take them, so now you're being dominated by the dog? A dog asks for water and giving it to the dog means the dog is in charge? I have seen a lot of dogs with no manners, dogs who think they're going to get their way all the time and have tantrums if they don't--but that's because a human has allowed them to become that way! The NILIF approach Bec uses has been my operating principle with Sarah since day one, but that hardly means I'm subordinate to her. It means I want a loving, trusting relationship between me and my dog, and I set the parameters for that relationship. Abs, dear, drop the Cesar books and start reading some Pat Miller. She really is very good, she's an animal behavioralist and trainer. I've found much of her stuff very helpful. http://www.peaceablepaws.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 @Bec its all dependant on what your definition of dominance is, to me its a dog that does not know whos in charge, doesn't have boundaries, etc etc. But ANY dog that doesn't receive proper training or leadership will develop bad behaviour. Dogs do what they find reinforcing, that doesn't make them 'dominant'. If a dog doesn't understand our boundaries that is our fault, not the dog's fault or the dog trying to be "dominant". I don't mind cesar, I enjoy the program and he does seem to get results. That depends on how you define 'results'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 But ANY dog that doesn't receive proper training or leadership will develop bad behaviour. Dogs do what they find reinforcing, that doesn't make them 'dominant'. If a dog doesn't understand our boundaries that is our fault, not the dog's fault or the dog trying to be "dominant". That depends on how you define 'results'. oh on I totally agree, sorry i should have said, that the reason they take to that behavior is due to people not understanding how to train their dogs or give them structure of boundaries. well the dogs behavior does "seem" to improve alot, but I am aware its T.V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 A truly dominant dog isn't made - IMO they are born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elenamarie Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 oh on I totally agree, sorry i should have said, that the reason they take to that behavior is due to people not understanding how to train their dogs or give them structure of boundaries. well the dogs behavior does "seem" to improve alot, but I am aware its T.V My operating theory has been to prevent bad behaviors from beginning. Of course I haven't been totally successful, Sarah is still learning, but in general I find that it's easier to prevent than cure. This is where I see children and dogs being very similar. Without expectations and boundaries, both are liable to become brats, and it's up to us to make sure neither our kids nor our dogs are brats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elenamarie Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 @Sabien&Abs I found this book very useful. http://www.amazon.com/Power-Positive-Dog-Training/dp/0470241845/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313061937&sr=8-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyshqa Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Just throwing this out there, but in recent years researchers have begun finding evidence disproving the dominance theory in wolves, and chances are within a few more years it will be common knowledge/common opinion that this theory is pants. If we're beginning to realise that the theory is wrong for wolves, I can't wait to see what happens to guys like Cesar who base the majority of their dog training on the dominance theory when the animals they are training are evolutionarily diverging from wolves. I've never liked the theory myself so I was very happy to learn about the above as part of my university course last year I even had a chance to answer an exam question on it a few months back. I might research a few papers to link to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 i'm not really much of a fan of dominance theory - my boys display dominance to a degree with each other - Kimba humping Kaiser and visa versa for example - they don't display anything like that with me. it's like a child in a way - you're not "dominant" over your children, they respect (or should) when you ask them to do something - eg - please can you put your glass in the kitchen - or to a dog - Sit, give paw etc in etiher case as long as the right training has been done before hand - the child should take the glass in the kitchen and the dog should sit and give paw:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staceybob Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 I have watched lots of Cesar and read lots of his books too. I disliked his books, he seemed to just brag about his cases and "calm assertive energy" but never seemed to explore how he achieved his "desired" effects. I agree with many that say Cesar is too quick to jump on the dominance board. I also agree with @Bec about dogs being born dominant. For example, I have brought up 3 different dogs all in the same way, but all of them have very different natural behaviours. Our border collie cross is naturally dominant towards dogs in the household, but extremely submissive to dogs outside. Our Border Collie Rebel, is naturally submissive in the home and backs down easily, but is dominant outside towards other dogs. Aleu needs lots of reminders to keep her dominance at a good level, She's always been very very dominant, ever since she was a pup and she is dominant towards dogs outside until they put her in her place. None of the descriptions of those dogs in the above paragraph make those dogs disobedient or out of control in my opinion. Dominance is not necesserily a bad thing or something that you should let bother you. Understanding how to live with a dominant dog is more important, not trying to force them to submit like Cesar does. Aleu is extremely dominant, but is she a disobedient dog? No, else why could I proudly walk into show rings with her, knowing that we'll do very well. My advice is: Let the Cesar books gather up dust on a near by shelf and look into books by people like Dr.Ian Dunbar and Pat Miller. Please watch this by Dr.Ian Dunbar. eHKSltT2sQ8 Stacey xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabien&Abs Posted August 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 @elenamarie will definitely be ordering the book come pay day. Had a look on Amazon and it looks really interesting. Thanks for that. @Hy'Shqa What uni course are you doing? it sounds very interesting. Any good sites on the internet about this recent research? I would be interested to read that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magical Merlin Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 my advice would be to stop watching CM. Try some victoria stillwell, shes much better and uses many reward based methods as well as ignoring the whole domminance issue. I totally agree with becs, dominant dogs are not made they are born. I am currently working with an amazing ABD who has the best social skills I have ever seen. He is quite clearly naturally dominant (he doesn't have to prove it to dogs by doing anything other than changing his body language so no pinning, growling or aggression, simple moves of his head, eyes and changes posture) All other dogs respect him, its their instinct to treat him with respect. Even the most full on SBT will charge in get up to George and stop being a git. Its so amazing to watch. BTW if anyone is intrested in an older ABD in the UK please PM me. He needs a home. (mods am i allowed to put that in here? I'm not saying where he is or giving any details of price/donation or alike ) Merlin on the other hand is a forced dominance dog. He is not naturally dominant and so he inforces his dominance on other dogs with poor social skills and bullying. Basically he makes other dogs fear him so that they submit but he is not truley dominant. Dogs are not generally dominant with people. Afterall, you don't look like another dog, you don't eat off the floor with your dog, you don't breed with your dog (I hope!!), you don't generally hunt and kill prey with your dog, communicate like a dog etc. What they are is slefish and they learn how to manipulate people to get what they want. Whineing at you may get you to feed them, pawing at you may get a cuddle, barking at the door may get it opened, biting you might get you to go away..They learn what action gets a reaction and use it to their benifit. Sitting on command gets a treat, weeing on the rug gets you shouted at. Its all about whats in it for them. If you like brushing your dog and he enjoys it then do it, if you want him to sit on the sofa with you for a cuddle then let him, if you don't want him to paw you to get something then ignore it. xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyshqa Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 @Hy'Shqa What uni course are you doing? it sounds very interesting. Any good sites on the internet about this recent research? I would be interested to read that. I'm doing BSc. Applied Animal Behaviour and Training at Bishop Burton College, East Yorkshire (just about to start 3rd/final year). It is a great course, our animal training lecturers in particular are fantastic. We haven't been given any online resources that you can access, but I would suggest looking at Science Direct - it's an online journal article archive. Search for 'dog dominance' etc and you should get articles appear about what I've been refering to. I'm not sure how much you'll get come up though, I've just realised the reason I can usually find so much is because I am given an athens account which gives me access to a lot more on that website Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabien&Abs Posted August 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 Thanks @Staceybob and @magical Merlin. Liked the clips of Dr Ian Dunbar and will get some of his books too. xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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