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Understanding the whole pack status thing and help please


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I'm doing BSc. Applied Animal Behaviour and Training at Bishop Burton College, East Yorkshire (just about to start 3rd/final year). It is a great course, our animal training lecturers in particular are fantastic. We haven't been given any online resources that you can access, but I would suggest looking at Science Direct - it's an online journal article archive. Search for 'dog dominance' etc and you should get articles appear about what I've been refering to. I'm not sure how much you'll get come up though, I've just realised the reason I can usually find so much is because I am given an athens account which gives me access to a lot more on that website :rolleyes:

Sounds like a great course. I know Bishop Burton College as I am from Hull originally and still go back there to visit my folks :)

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Just throwing this out there, but in recent years researchers have begun finding evidence disproving the dominance theory in wolves

I simply cannot see how anyone could possibly say wolves are not dominant?

yes the theory of wolves randomly fighting with each othwer to form a hiearchy amongst themselves with the alpha pair at the top and omega at the bottem is being disproven. But this is because wolves are a family unit, the mother and father being the Alpha and only breeding pair in the pack, the father will be dominant over the boys, the mother over the females, they HAVE to do this in order to work as a unit when hunting, they cannot have any of the pack make mistakes. There have been documented cases of wolves staying with the pack so long that they eventually challenge their mother or father for the role of Alpha and if they win they will kill them.

However in Un-related wolf packs, i.e in Zoos or nature parks etc, the hierarchey theory still holds, as they have to form an order, and you will get an alpha pair and an omega with the rest inbetween.

Some dogs may see their owners as their parents almost, but others won't, the same with having multiple dogs in a house hold these dogs are unrelated(alot of the time), so in my personal opinion dominance will play out and most of the time 1 dog will be more dominant than the other(s), this also would explain why dominant displays happen in things like dog parks.

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I read an article too that suggested the whole "Dominance in Dogs" thing is long outdated.

Currently I have started my dog training collection with "Shaping Success" by Susan Garrett and Ian Dunbar's "Before and After Getting Your Puppy". I'm also a member of Puppy Peaks and I'm learning so much from it that I can't wait to actually finally have my puppy to train. I've also ordered Susan's book "Ruff Love", and have her DVD of Crate Games (AWESOME video for anyone teaching crating for their dog; this DVD is a must for any dog owner). Basically, her training is all about choice - a good choice vs the wrong (not bad, no choice is ever "Bad" I think) choice, and the rewarding for the good choices her dog makes. Her new puppy Swagger is just... adorable! And in the end, her training makes sense, which is what to me is the biggest draw for it.

I also have videos from Leerburg training center featuring Michael Ellis. While he also does operant conditioning it's different from Susan's, but I think that's because he's involved in a different sport; Susan is into Agility while Michael does protection sports. I think when it comes to the protection sports, there's this thing that if you don't appear tough with the dogs - have a prong and what not - then you're being too soft and the dog isn't any good. That and I think that there's a quick need to correct a dog instead of taking longer to work it through with the dog. But that's just opinion/observation and probably nowhere close to right. However, there is still merit in what he does, and good ideas, hence why I got the DVD's.

A friend and I were discussing the two and she has a GSD herself that she's got in Schutzhund, and she said she'd love to see a dog get their SchH1 in the theory that Susan follows, which involves NO punishment - verbal or physical - at all. Not even "leash popping". I think it is doable, but it's the "Appearance" that people are most worried about. A lot of the protection sport people are really... grr; anger management issues. :D

I love the idea of training; always have and if I can be a trainer myself some day, it'd be my "dream" come true. I'd LOVE to go to Susan's place and actually take one of her Training Camps, too so I can see/learn all this directly, and talk to the woman herself.

IMO, CM is full of crap and I despise him totally. His methods, his attitude, letting people think he's a trainer when he's not, he's a "behaviorist" (and not a good one at that, either, IMO) and I just...

I can't stand the man.

I think the best dog trainers are those that can learn from others, and adapt what they've learned to the situation and the dog. I think people use "Dominance" in dogs because it's an easy word to use to describe the dog's behavior, even if it might be the wrong word. I think the social status of dogs is complex and really people are only just now looking seriously into it, because dogs are now something a little more serious to the "common" people than they were, say, fifteen to twenty years ago. Look at society - hotels for dogs, daycares, spas, clothing lines, life jackets (seriously, at one time no one would'a ever thought to put a life jacket on a dog), etc - the dog is becoming a serious thing to us. And so more people want to understand the dog and learn more about them. Dogs just aren't for science anymore.

... sorry for the long, rambling and :offtopic: post...

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IMO I think we'd be totally off the mark to suggest that dominance in dogs doesn't exist at all. Like I said earlier - I believe it does but a truly dominant dog is rare, certainly not as common as many people seem to think they are.

Getting OT, but Laine, just out of interest... how many trainers/competitors in Schutzhund do you know?

ETA: I like SG but her methods are very specific to her and the way she trains agility. Have a read of her book Ruff Love for eg - very few people would be able to follow it the way she lays it out in the book. It would certainly be near impossible for the average pet owner or anyone who works F/T. I see merit in the things she suggests but to have dogs trained the way she trains hers requires extensive commitment and you really need to have trained the dog that way from early puppy hood too. Even a lot if not most of the competitors I know would struggle raising and training a dog that way.

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Hi!

I love these debates! I would whole heartedly recommend Dunbar's 'Dog Sense', Miklosi's 'Dog behaviour, evolution and cognitition', Wynne's 'Animal Cognition' amongst others...

Dominance theory was incorrect when it started and is around 25 years out of date yet still persists...never been shown in wolves let alone the dogs that this flawed study was directed towards. Wolves exist in the wild in a more extended family format with the female matriarch usually in charge unless she is in bloom or raising pups when the patriarch takes over, yet even then at the appropriate time the right leader for the right job takes over.

In this way there was a lovely study I read following Katrina where a pack of dogs formed, including pitbulls and rotties - yet were led by a beagle. I guess they needed his smell and sense of direction, and we was what CM would call calm assertive, or what I would say calm confidence.

I love Cesar Milan - yet I watch what he does, not what he says. He says 'dominance' yet then practices 'leadership' - which are completely different things. If you provide leadership to satisfy the doggy needs then the dog won't need to provide that leadership himself. I love his rules of first animal, then dog, then breed then pet. Also the way he gets people to approach his dogs. And further how he remains calm and assertive - which is key to gaining any animal's trust, whatever they are. He tells people dominance and then practices leadership - two completely different things.

When he works with dogs he disciplines them - not in punishment, but in correction, in the dictionary definition of 'to learn'. And he rewards them - not in the overt sense of our food rewards, emotion and touch but in the calmness of character that doing the correct behaviour creates - allowing the dog to be the dog. I actually feel he understands dog psychology and cognition one whole lot more in his actions than in his words.

I've worked hard to fault what Cesar does, and find it hard to do so. Yet I find fault all the time with what he says...

If people do what he says (apart from his basic rules which I love) I think they'll have difficulty. If they practice what he does I think they'll be just fine...

(Disclaimer that there are many schools of thought as to the right and wrong way of dog training. I don't subscribe to a particular school or methodology. I look to be the friendly leader. When Harley is doing something wrong I correct (at the time of the thought of the dogs action if possible) with a touch if close enough, or a verbal correction if at distance. I reward good behaviour with emotion, voice, touch, and treats all as appropriate - as well as just allowing Harley to be the dog, then the husky...and always do my best to remain calm and confident around the dog.)

Best regards,

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Just found a quite interesting article. I've picked this part out because it seems relevant to the original question:

"Below follows an excerpt of an article on this concept written by Dr. Ian Dunbar.

"Dr. Frank Beach performed a 30-year study on dogs at Yale and UC Berkeley. Nineteen years of the study was devoted to social behavior of a dog pack. Some of his findings:



  • Male dogs have a rigid hierarchy

  • Female dogs have a hierarchy, but it's more variable

  • When you mix the sexes, the rules get mixed up. Males try to follow their constitution, but the females have "amendments"

  • Young puppies have what's called "puppy license." Basically, that license to do most anything. Bitches are more tolerant of puppy license than males are

  • The puppy license is revoked at approximately four months of age. At that time, the older middle-ranked dogs literally give the puppy hell -- psychologically torturing it until it offers all of the appropriate appeasement behaviours and takes its place at the bottom of the social hierarchy. The top-ranked dogs ignore the whole thing

  • There is NO physical domination. Everything is accomplished through psychological harassment. It's all ritualistic

  • A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed

  • The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because...

    Middle-ranked animals squabble. They are insecure in their positions and want to advance over other middle-ranked animals

  • Low-ranked animals do not squabble. They know they would lose. They know their position, and they accept it

  • "Alpha" does not mean physically dominant. It means "in control of resources." Many, many alpha dogs are too small or too physically frail to physically dominate, but they have earned the right to control the valued resources. An individual dog determines which resources he considers important. Thus an alpha dog may give up a prime sleeping place because he simply couldn't care less.

So what does this mean for the dog-human relationship?



  • Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble

  • To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behaviour. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, "you" are alpha by definition

  • Train your dog. This is the dog-human equivalent of the "revoking of puppy license" phase in dog development. Children, women, elderly people, handicapped people -- all are capable of training a dog. Very few people are capable of physical domination

  • Reward deferential behaviour, rather than pushy behaviour. I have two dogs. If one pushes in front of the other, the other gets the attention, the food, whatever the first dog wanted. The first dog to sit gets treated. Pulling on lead goes nowhere. Doors don't open until dogs are seated and I say they may go out. Reward pushy, and you get pushy."

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More posts arrived as I typed…

Laine, I agree with much of what you said…just a couple of points though, CM reminds people constantly (especially in his latest books) that he is a behaviourist and not a trainer…and also you say “I think the best dog trainers are those that can learn from others, and adapt what they've learned to the situation and the dog.†And this is just what he has done in his latest work.

Best regards,

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Just found a quite interesting article. I've picked this part out because it seems relevant to the original question:

"Below follows an excerpt of an article on this concept written by Dr. Ian Dunbar.

"Dr. Frank Beach performed a 30-year study on dogs at Yale and UC Berkeley. Nineteen years of the study was devoted to social behavior of a dog pack. Some of his findings:



  • Male dogs have a rigid hierarchy

  • Female dogs have a hierarchy, but it's more variable

  • When you mix the sexes, the rules get mixed up. Males try to follow their constitution, but the females have "amendments"

  • Young puppies have what's called "puppy license." Basically, that license to do most anything. Bitches are more tolerant of puppy license than males are

  • The puppy license is revoked at approximately four months of age. At that time, the older middle-ranked dogs literally give the puppy hell -- psychologically torturing it until it offers all of the appropriate appeasement behaviours and takes its place at the bottom of the social hierarchy. The top-ranked dogs ignore the whole thing

  • There is NO physical domination. Everything is accomplished through psychological harassment. It's all ritualistic

  • A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed

  • The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because...

    Middle-ranked animals squabble. They are insecure in their positions and want to advance over other middle-ranked animals

  • Low-ranked animals do not squabble. They know they would lose. They know their position, and they accept it

  • "Alpha" does not mean physically dominant. It means "in control of resources." Many, many alpha dogs are too small or too physically frail to physically dominate, but they have earned the right to control the valued resources. An individual dog determines which resources he considers important. Thus an alpha dog may give up a prime sleeping place because he simply couldn't care less.

So what does this mean for the dog-human relationship?



  • Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble

  • To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behaviour. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, "you" are alpha by definition

  • Train your dog. This is the dog-human equivalent of the "revoking of puppy license" phase in dog development. Children, women, elderly people, handicapped people -- all are capable of training a dog. Very few people are capable of physical domination

  • Reward deferential behaviour, rather than pushy behaviour. I have two dogs. If one pushes in front of the other, the other gets the attention, the food, whatever the first dog wanted. The first dog to sit gets treated. Pulling on lead goes nowhere. Doors don't open until dogs are seated and I say they may go out. Reward pushy, and you get pushy."

Interesting and reassuring! I get Sabien to obey a command before he gets anything from me, eg he has to sit and give a paw before he gets his meals, treats, if we are out in suitable place where he can have some off leash time I make him sit before I undo his leash, and then tell him wait and then to go when I have decided he can run. What is really frustrating is when you put the effort in to this and Sabien does really well and will do these things as soon as you ask, then you go away for a week and leave him with your OH who does none of these things. I used to wonder why Sabien wouldn't sit first time when requested when allowing him off leash, then discovered that my OH was not making him sit or wait and just letting him off,:banghead: aaargh! Any tips on how to tame an unruly OH????:)

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Dominance theory was incorrect when it started and is around 25 years out of date yet still persists...never been shown in wolves let alone the dogs that this flawed study was directed towards. Wolves exist in the wild in a more extended family format with the female matriarch usually in charge unless she is in bloom or raising pups when the patriarch takes over, yet even then at the appropriate time the right leader for the right job takes over.

Are you sure you're not getting confused with Hyenas? :P

Alpha roles in packs are rarely swapped, more often than not the older younglings will leave and start a pack of their own, also the alpha female or "matriarch" is only out of action for a short time, she will rejoin the pack to hunt relatively quickly and one of the older female younglings will stay at the den while the mother is gone.



  • "Alpha" does not mean physically dominant. It means "in control of resources." Many, many alpha dogs are too small or too physically frail to physically dominate, but they have earned the right to control the valued resources. An individual dog determines which resources he considers important. Thus an alpha dog may give up a prime sleeping place because he simply couldn't care less.

this is absolutley true in my opinion, its mentality not physicality that give dog the rank of Alpha, I remember watching a documentary about a wolf pack put together of unrelated wolves and the intened Alpha male was large and physically strong, but in the end was totally dominated by the more mentally strong wolf who was alot smaller.

Also a more personal expeirence is Grey up the dog park, Grey is pretty much what I'd consider top dog, especially amongst the regular of us that go, Grey is medium height and build, back so far I've never seen another male dog even get confrontational with Grey, Grey just makes the noise, has the posture etc etc, a few weeks ago a new husky was at the dog park, he was well build and tall, he was boying boisterous and showing signs of dominance to the other dogs there, Grey came in done his usual noise, posture, paw on the back etc, nothing physical and the dog back down.

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Cesar has skills alright... Skills in being able to ramble complete and utter rubbish and maintain an audience!

I am not suggesting that Cesar full on kicks dogs, but please watch this video - half of the scraps with the dogs, do not occur until he "touches" then with his foot. That in my arms is provoking a behaviour. Why would you want to do that?

RFCGtatpCwI

Check out 1:18, 2:22, 4:50

Cesar has been bitten and sued time and time again, yet there are many successful dog trainers that rarely if never get bitten throughout their entire career yet still achieve fantastic results with dogs.

Cesar can call himself whatever he wants, dog "behaviourist" or a monkeys uncle, I dont care, but I just do not think anything justifies half of what that man does.

Cesar has some knowledge and has corrected some dogs successfully and in a very creditable way, but he has certainly outweighed them with his other ridiculous approaches to cases.

Stacey xxx

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I'm not going to comment much on CM. I don't agree with a lot of what he does or how he communicates that he gets his results...then again if he gave away all his secrets he probably would see a drop in $$ income.

Pack status...

The way it works around here is as follows: We are people, you are dogs...you have a place in the pack but it is below ALL the people. Not an option to put yourself as a dog above the people types...the smaller you are as a people the more gentile dogs are expected to be around you. This in our house means that the dogs aren't allowed to wrestle in the room our toddler is in, stealing from people is a big nono...and when a people gives you a command or tells you to do something you do it...or you don't end up with what you want....be it affection, a treat, for me to finally put your food down, etc...Structure and predictability are super important...and when behavior starts backsliding it's more important to stick with it.

Something I've learned in behavioral health to keep in mind...reinforcement is an interpretive thing. It's not about what you WANT to reinforce..it's about what the individual having behavior modified see's as being reinforced...

Whoever said that grooming your dog makes you his or her bitch is...well an idjit.

Keep at it, keep researching and setting boundaries and you'll do fine...

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Damn!

Just did a long post and was interrupted by a call from my Dog Warden of all people, who's helping me out with an issue another dog has with attacking my Harley...then refreshed by mistake...grrrrr! All lost...

The 'gist' of it was though, we're all talking about the packs and their structure and models yet we haven't covered yet that we aren't dogs - and aren't viewed by a dog as another dog either. Dogs have developed alongside modern humans and the relationship is human-dog not dog-dog...worth a thought...

Best regards,

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IMO I think we'd be totally off the mark to suggest that dominance in dogs doesn't exist at all. Like I said earlier - I believe it does but a truly dominant dog is rare, certainly not as common as many people seem to think they are.

Getting OT, but Laine, just out of interest... how many trainers/competitors in Schutzhund do you know?

ETA: I like SG but her methods are very specific to her and the way she trains agility. Have a read of her book Ruff Love for eg - very few people would be able to follow it the way she lays it out in the book. It would certainly be near impossible for the average pet owner or anyone who works F/T. I see merit in the things she suggests but to have dogs trained the way she trains hers requires extensive commitment and you really need to have trained the dog that way from early puppy hood too. Even a lot if not most of the competitors I know would struggle raising and training a dog that way.

I only know one person, personally, who trains in Schutzhund and that's a friend of mine in Maine. I would like to see and maybe learn more but the club closest to me hasn't contacted me yet about training times and a schedule so I may have to email them again. It's an interesting sport to watch, although I've seen people in videos online more than RL so I can't say as I "know" anyone specific. Another friend of mine was training her Malinois for the hopes of going into Ring, but she's had to sideline that due to problems.

I agree Susan's training methods are specific to how she trains for agility, although she does say you can use it for anything else, and that the main things she trains for, the primary thing, is to have a good pet first, THEN the sport dog. I haven't read Ruff Love yet to say much about it, although from her videos on PP and working with her Singleton pup Swagger, she said she's put more time into training him than any other dog precisely because he's a single pup, and she's focused on doing some of her training earlier than she would with a regular puppy. For example most people wouldn't be able to start any crate games until they got their pup at 8 weeks but her pup Swagger's been doing it since he was five weeks old. But she does have good ideas, so I have no problem cherry-picking ones I like.

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i brush all of ma dogs - they walk thru doors before me - n yet when i walk towards them they all submit n roll onto their backs - dominace theory is crap - they all sleep on my bed most of the time too - they have their dinner b4 us too lol

Beautifully written input Nix, as always Pmsl.

Stacey xxx

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lol you really don't like Cesar do you? :P

I've tried some of his techniques with Kita, it seemed to work a treat... but hey ho.

I don't really care about CM himself, but you only have to watch his show to see how many times he gets bitten. I SEE people who take on his methods with disastrous results all the time. Shutting down a dog, air blocking them, bullying them until they give up etc - those methods will sure look like they work on a highly edited TV program but no behaviour modification is actually being done to change the way the dog thinks. I doubt many dogs on CM's show go forward 100% free of behaviourial problems.

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i brush all of ma dogs - they walk thru doors before me - n yet when i walk towards them they all submit n roll onto their backs - dominace theory is crap - they all sleep on my bed most of the time too - they have their dinner b4 us too lol

I agree with that part! Except I walk through the front doors out of the house first, she doesnt until she's invited, I have to try and train her to not just walk out of the front door left open, Living with 4 other people who arent always aware it can happen -_-'

Kita eats, when it seems shes hungry, usually around 6ish my family doesnt tend to eat til 8+ so it'd be unfair for her to wait til then, she's aloud on my bed, though rarely does unless she wants to look out of the window :P, shes not aloud on the sofas, but thats my mums choice, i would allow it if it was up to me

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I find it odd how you condone his methods, yet in another thread pretty much openly mentioned you have or would use a shock collar :confused:

Have you ever been shown how modern e-collar training works James?

E-collars would easily be one of if not the least aversive tools out there. I personally have not come across any other tool that is as gentle or subtle as an e-collar.

I have an e-collar here, I guarantee you, if I put it on you, you would barely (if at all) be able to feel the level my dog works on.

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Have you ever been shown how modern e-collar training works James?

E-collars would easily be one of if not the least aversive tools out there. I personally have not come across any other tool that is as gentle or subtle as an e-collar.

I have an e-collar here, I guarantee you, if I put it on you, you would barely (if at all) be able to feel the level my dog works on.

Neither agreeing nor disagreeing, but can we not go through this again?

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