Mistyrayn Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 had an eventfull day today.. now after trying all sorts from half check collars, to anti pull hanesses, encouragment, stubborness, tricks,con's, laying on the floor screaming like a kid and even down right obvious bribery, could i get the girls to stop pulling ... YEH RIGHT . i wish but as usual on a Sunday we go to a forest area in Kent and roam for hours.. tried the Halti's .. "well slap me with a wet fish and call me bob" after the initial having few days of getting used to them but not liking.. the girls were fantastic.. no pulling even when on the flexi leads, didn't stop them darting about every where though .. but no pulling .. now i have time to be polite to other dog walkers instead of being dragged full speed past them... so thats RICHARD 1 GIRLS 0 now this bit ain't for the faint hearted.... as it was cold i decided to wear gloves.. BIG MISTAKE .... after a while of them darting left right left right smelling every thing in sight. the flexi leads got tangled so .. as im untangleing / juggling with the leads i managed to drop Nikita's lead :asshole2: she promptly decide to trot off.. now Tikaani seing that this looks like a fun game decided to join at full speed ... was i ready for that... was i F**K... dropped her bloody lead aswell .... now i called myself it at the time .. so none of you have to " W***ER".. OK my initial reaction was to run after the leads... but HA HA HA i outsmarted them and turned other way . i use a whistle for recalls.. so i went ..TOOT TOOT on it and within seconds 2 adoring Husky's were at my side dragging leads waiting for their treats.... PHEW !!!! that was lucky.. now after praising them etc, settled my heart. insulted myself, chucked the gloves away we carried on with our walk.. so now im feeling pretty danm good that the training ive had is paying off. think the girls training is also doin well. never wanna risk that again.... RICHARD 2 GIRLS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sakora Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Dude thats awsome that they came back, so the regular halters worked then?? cause I should just try that, Everyone has told me not to use a halti cause they just pull more?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyrayn Posted January 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Dude thats awsome that they came back, so the regular halters worked then?? cause I should just try that, Everyone has told me not to use a halti cause they just pull more?? i found that they pull more on the so called anti pull harness.... it takes a bit of doin getting them settled in a Halti as they dont like things across their noses , they will at the beggining keep try to get them off.. but i found putting on at home a few times before taking out, lots of treats and praise helped... maybe wont work on all but def has for me.. but i would be prepared that the size 3 that they say is for a Husky is way to big.. mine are the size 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sakora Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 sounds good, I'm going to take sakora to pet smart in about 1/2 hour, bwa ha ha She has no idea what shes in for!!! hehehehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 There are a few reasons why I don't ever advocate using haltis. Not just my own experience with them - Micha's snapped apart and he could also slip out of it, but also for a few other reasons. Haltis are designed to be similar to horse halters, but the key point people don't realise is the skeletal differences between horses and canines, as well as the different location of nerves in the face. The pressure applied to the face of the dog when wearing a head halter can be quite painful and stressful to the dog, because this is where are lot of a dog's nerves are - head halters can also ride up into their eyes causing discomfort. Neck injuries are prevalent in dogs that lunge when wearing head halters because the neck bears the brunt of the leverage when the dog pulls on the halter. This danger is amplified even more by the fact you have them on flexi leads - if you are going to use the haltis, please, PLEASE for their safety, walk them on a normal leash. You also noticed that the haltis caused your dogs irritation and discomfort the first few days they had them on - no tool that you put on your dog should cause the dog to be in a constant state of discomfort or pain, not just because it is annoying to the dog, but because the dog is in a constant state of aversion and this is means they are not successfully being corrected for pulling (because it is correcting them even when they aren't pulling). Ultimately, this means that unlike a standard correctional collar (check chain, martingale, prong) the dog is only being managed, not trained. If you took the haltis off, I can guarantee you they will start pulling again - because the halti just diminishes their drive they haven't learned to stop pulling at all. A good trainer will take ten minutes tops to get a serious puller walking on a loose leash, and whilst this doesn't mean the dog has completely learned to stop pulling it is the foundation of the work. A tool is just that, a tool, and no tool on it's own can replace a good training program. Training takes time, patience and consistency but the end results are so much better than just managing it with a quick fix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Wow, that was very lucky Richard, must admit though i've done that and turning away from them and walking off whilst calling worked with me as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyrayn Posted January 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 You also noticed that the haltis caused your dogs irritation and discomfort the first few days they had them on - no tool that you put on your dog should cause the dog to be in a constant state of discomfort or pain, not just because it is annoying to the dog, but because the dog is in a constant state of aversion and this is means they are not successfully being corrected for pulling (because it is correcting them even when they aren't pulling). Ultimately, this means that unlike a standard correctional collar (check chain, martingale, prong) the dog is only being managed, not trained. If you took the haltis off, I can guarantee you they will start pulling again - because the halti just diminishes their drive they haven't learned to stop pulling at all. A good trainer will take ten minutes tops to get a serious puller walking on a loose leash, and whilst this doesn't mean the dog has completely learned to stop pulling it is the foundation of the work. A tool is just that, a tool, and no tool on it's own can replace a good training program. Training takes time, patience and consistency but the end results are so much better than just managing it with a quick fix at no time did my dogs feel discomfort... its like the back pack i got her she didn't like that to start now she loves wearing it and carrying bits in it..... i would never use anything that gives my dogs pain or discomfort... both my dogs soon run around like mad and completley forgot that they had them one.. as for check chain .. am i to beleive that a chain being tightened around their neck is kinder to them just the same as a prong is it kinder to have a collar with prongs on ... sorry but ill stick with the Halti i don't want them to stop pulling .. just to know that when Harness is on ... we run or you pull something... when halti on then its nice walk in park or forest... for a trainer to stop a dog pulling in 10 mins then im sorry if you disagree but that would be by breaking the dogs spirit first... total controll / domination is not what i want ... ... personally i hate prong collars, check chains and static collars,,, id rather take 2 weeks training one thing and know my dogs are doing it to please me not co's they fear me.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sakora Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 I Am going to try Sakora with a halti, I want her to know the difrence from when shes got her pack and harness on its time to run, But when we have a hati on hopefull she'll learn that its time for a nice walk( like when were with other people around or kids are there, My self personally I would rather take the time try the Halti, If she doesnt like it, or it doesnt work then its a whole 20$ wasted, OH WELL!! The people I recued Sakora from tryed the savere domination with her and It completle back fierd on them, When I took her she had absolutle NO Spirit left and you could tell she was broken,( NO wonder she bites when she gets scared, or is put in uncmfortable situations I would too, But I am willing to do absolutely anything to make sakoras life good and my time with her enjoyable.Diffrent thinks work for diffrent dogs, and I am willing to find out what works for mine..............Thats usually treats....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawPrints Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 i've used a halti on dakota when he was younger, it didnt bother him at all, for about 3 mins when i first put it on he shook his head a bit but after that was fine, cause he wasnt pulling, it didnt cut into him or go in his eyes if it had of done then i wuld have stopped usin it. dont need one now though as he's got out of his puppy stage so not as wired on the leed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyrayn Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Sakora u say $20 wasted... LOL i bought 2 of the non pull harnesses only to find they didn't work... i think that it is one thing as Husky owners we have to suffer... good old fashoined " trial and error" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 at no time did my dogs feel discomfort... its like the back pack i got her she didn't like that to start now she loves wearing it and carrying bits in it..... i would never use anything that gives my dogs pain or discomfort... both my dogs soon run around like mad and completley forgot that they had them one.. as for check chain .. am i to beleive that a chain being tightened around their neck is kinder to them just the same as a prong is it kinder to have a collar with prongs on ... sorry but ill stick with the Halti i don't want them to stop pulling .. just to know that when Harness is on ... we run or you pull something... when halti on then its nice walk in park or forest... for a trainer to stop a dog pulling in 10 mins then im sorry if you disagree but that would be by breaking the dogs spirit first... total controll / domination is not what i want ... ... personally i hate prong collars, check chains and static collars,,, id rather take 2 weeks training one thing and know my dogs are doing it to please me not co's they fear me.. Sorry Richard, not quite sure if you read my post properly. I personally don't use check chains as I feel martingales are prongs are much more effective - but the fact that you seem to think that using checks, prongs or e-collars (assuming that is what you meant by 'static collars') is training your dog with fear just shows that you don't really understand how they work. If someone is using a check chain to CHOKE a dog then they are NOT using it properly. If you had read my post properly you would understand that using a halti is not getting your dogs to do something to "please" you - what part of the way a halti works makes you think the dogs are walking on a loose leash to please you? They are doing it because some of a dog's most sensitive nerves are located in their face, and by putting pressure on those points, the dog is being forced to walk at a slower pace. I assumed by your comment in your OP that "after the initial having few days of getting used to them but not liking.." that this meant the dogs were at some point uncomfortable with the haltis on. Why else wouldn't she like it? By all means - once you understand how the head halter works, use it if you feel it is the best way, but PLEASE do not think it is painless or "kinder" than a prong. I would put a prong on my dogs over a halti any day - a properly used prong is much more effective AND kinder than a halti. A halti puts pressure on the dog's facial nerves, and rides up into their eyes, which causes the dog to be in a constant state of aversion. The halti is always pressuring these nerves, even when the dog isn't pulling, which means they are constantly being corrected, even when they aren't pulling. If you want to use the halti that's fine - but please don't do so under any illusion that your dog is doing it to please you. A prong however only puts pressure on a dog when you tense the leash slightly. I have had both a check chain corrected on my leg, and a prong corrected on my leg, and not only was the prong painless to wear when it wasn't being tightened but it hurt less than a check chain... I have also had an e-collar on my arm but that is for another thread entirely I couldn't help but wonder at your comment about a good trainer getting a dog to walk on a loose leash in less than ten minutes. I have seen trainers do this using nothing more than a martingale collar and rarely even correcting the dog! I have also seen trainers do it with a flat collar on a dog. Why do you assume that a dog's spirit would be broken or that it would involve dominating the dog? I have seen two qualified behaviourists teach numerous dogs (including my own) to walk on a loose leash in less than ten minutes, and not one of those times did it include "breaking the dogs spirit". I have no idea why you would assume this. I work my dogs using a high drive program, a "broken spirit" or a dog unwilling to work would be completely useless to me, when you are training in drive you cannot even correct a dog because it might bring them out of drive. Anyway... by all means use the halti but don't fool yourself into thinking it is painless. Why would it work if it wasn't putting pressure on the dog's face? I have seen dogs with prongs put on them, and they didn't even realise they were wearing them... they get excited when they see them because it means they are going for a walk. The other difference between checks/martingales/prongs is that when used properly, it is impossible to cause injury to the dog. Even when used "properly" a halti can still cause severe neck damage, especially when the dog is on a flexi leash! But hey - I'm just trying to give you the info, you can ignore it or learn from it, but I like to understand how the tools I use work and most of all I like to use them safely. ETA: just for clarification... I thought prongs looked cruel too until I understood how they worked - the prongs do NOT stick it the dog's neck, they lie flat across the dog's neck. The edges are also completely rounded/blunt. Whilst I would happily use a prong if the situation arose (I don't need to use them on my dogs) I would only recommend doing so under the guidance of an experienced trainer so you know how to use it properly, and like any tool, have a training program to go along with its use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 The problem of "pulling" is one of the great ironies of Husky ownership. On the on hand, you don't want to stop the dog doing what it has been bred to do, but on the other, you don't want a walk to turn into a constant arm-lengthening battle. I tend to agree with Smeagle that all the equipment and aids available to us are just tools and their effectiveness depends upon how well we use them rather than the tool itself. After all, a learner driver with a Maserati will not be more effective, just more dangerous than a learner with an old Escort. Like everything with huskies, the key is training. We show and work our huskies, as well as walking them in the park like any other pet dogs. From babies, they are trained to respond differently to different types of collar and different commands. When we work them, they wear the collars in the middle of the photo - webbing half-check collars. In these collars they know they are not only allowed to pull, but expected to. In the showring, they wear the extremely thin check chains (right of photo). In these they know they must respond to the minutest of pressures and behave as requested at all times (this is the ideal ). If they wanted to misbehave, it would not be impossible for them to snap these chains like a length of string - it's all in the training. Out on a normal walk, they wear the collars on the left - the webbing collars with the chain half-check. The collars hang loosely round the neck and only tighten when the dog pulls. In these they walk to heel. We never use head collars (Haltis, Loupis etc) largely for the reasons Smeagle gave. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Well said Raindog... I see owners who talk about how many different training tools they have tried to use to get their dog to stop pulling and to no avail. More often than not, it is because a training tool has been used in place of actual training. The tool is just the aid to help you, and no tool on it's own will effectively teach a dog anything. Even a prong collar will not work effectively if you don't have the training to go along with it. The only way a dog will ever do anything reliably, is for the dog to understand WHY it does it and for the dog to make the choice to follow your command. A lot of people look at issuing a correction as dominating the dog or "breaking it's spirit" AKA, diminishing the dog's drive. And this is true of people who use the old 'jerk em round' methods using heavy leash corrections designed to lower or knock the drive out of the dog. Compliance may be gained using these methods, but the dog is doing so out of submission, not because it wants to please the handler. On the other end of the scale, you have purely positive trainers who don't believe in using any corrections at all, and who may get compliance out of low drive dogs in a home or low distraction setting. However, it is when the dog is under various levels of distraction that the compliance often disappears, as this form of training has no way of correcting unwanted behaviours. In reality, the best style of training (IMO) is training that is balanced. Positive reinforcement is great for teaching dogs things and marking a positive behaviour, corrections are great for marking an unwanted behaviour, and are very effective when used properly and with the right timing. You do not need to beat a dog around or choke it on a check chain to give it a correction - and a correction does not need to include a lot of pain, more just a bit of discomfort so the dog understands when it has done something wrong. When I give my dogs a quick check on their collars, I only give a slight 'pop' on the leash (we use the say martingale/half-check collars that Raindog has), pulling the leash across my body not upwards. This doesn't hurt the dog, it is more like saying "Hey! Pay attention!". If you are going to use a training tool as an aid in your training, then you need one that can assist you in communicating with the dog in the easiest and most efficient way possible. This is why I do not use haltis; I like to be the one to control when and if I put pressure on my dogs, or use the tool to correct them - because the tool only makes up such a small part of training. Ultimately as I have said previously, the type of reinforcement you use and the type of corrections you give make up only a very little part of dog training. It is more about the temperament of the dog, and the trainer's ability to work within that temperament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Some of you have seen this video already, but I just thought I'd post it again for those who missed it. This is a dog that my trainer got walking on a loose leash in less than ten minutes, with just a bit of negative reinforcement, lots of positive reinforcement and a bit of education on body language and timing. And of course - the right tools, a nice 4 ft leather leash and a martingale collar. A large part of teaching your dog not to pull, is learning how to hold the leash properly - keep it slack and don't hold it so it's tight, other wise the pressure will transfer to the dog. This video is Micha at feeding time. He is being trained in food drive using a program called the triangle of temptation. Whilst it looks like a simple sit/stay exercise, there was a fair bit of foundation work building up to this (even though it isn't the best vid it gives you the idea). Does this look like a dog who has been trained to comply to commands using fear? Does this look like a dog that has had his "spirit broken"? I have a good level of focus and control purely using a voice command. [ame]http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VrQJmmRbDY0[/ame] You could not get a dog working like Mish is in the above video if he feared me or had his "spirit broken". Whilst I have never and will never use corrections when training a dog in drive like I am in the video (because you don't want to diminish it), I have used training collars and corrections/negative reinforcement to teach things like loose leash walking, and also to manage Micha's dog aggression. Micha was attacked twice as a young puppy/dog which lead to fear aggression towards strange dogs It is not severe but has meant that I have had to learn a lot about the most effective way to manage dog aggression. You cannot manage a fear aggressive dog with more fear. It is also because of this issue that I believe in being able to control my dog with 100% reliability - if the owners of the dogs that attacked Micha had control over their dogs, Micha would not have the issues he does today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunc Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I see this vid in our house everyday as both saskia and wolf do the same thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I see this vid in our house everyday as both saskia and wolf do the same thing Isn't it a really good way to build a good relationship with your dog? Here's a link to the triangle of temptation method, it's a little different to teaching a basic sit/stay but makes for a very interesting read and is great to try on your dogs! I noticed a big difference a basic sit/stay and doing it this way. http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunc Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yeah it is good but to be fair even thou my dogs are very well trained I can not take all the credit as susan ( my wife ) does most if not all of it and I must say when she learns then something new it makes me so cuffed as they do everything they learn for me as well That site is very interesting read ta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyrayn Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 ok i take on board what has been said .. but the beauty of this site is every body is free to have there opinions.. allthough i may not agree with the use of check chain ( half check yes ) also i do not agree with usage of prong or static collars ( E collars ) that is my personal opinion.. i may not be as experienced as some people on this forum.. i will still do it the way i feel happy with doing... my wife who is and has been for some 25 years a dog trainer is also my tutor.. and i trust her methods.. even if some people disagree with them. she is the South East UK co- ordinator for Shetland Sheepdog's and i agree they are a totally different breed from a Husky .. but the principal is the same.. we have had some seriously srewed up dogs come thru our home over the years and i have seen her do wonders with simple use of clicker training, and yes halti's.. and they have gone on to be perfect . so thank you for your response's but leave it at that ..the fact is some have there own training ways which work for them and i have mine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I agree dunc, lots of good info on that site. Reading through this thread from the beginning, it's clear that all the members, whilst using different "tools" (for want of a better word) manage their dogs well and lovingly. Suppose it's like with kids isn't it - some parents believe a slap on the bum is ok when disiplining but others totally disagree and see this as cruel. Bottom line, you still love your kid and do what you believe is right. Interpreting this into the thread - all members see things differently, (if we didn't, we wouldn't be human after all lol) and can agree with both arguments. All in all, a good discussion topic which has thrown out a lot of interesting facts about harnesses/collars/leads etc. Well done peeps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 ok i take on board what has been said .. but the beauty of this site is every boby is free to have there opinions.. allthough i may not agree with the use of check chain ( half check yes ) also i do not agree with usage of prong or static colears ( E collars ) that is my personal opinion.. i may not be as experienced as some people on this forum.. i will still do it the way i feel happy with doing... my wife who is and has been for some 25 years a dog trainer is also my tutor.. and i trust her methods.. even if some people disagree with them. she is the South East UK co- ordinator for Shetland Sheepdog's and i agree they are a totally different breed from a Husky .. but the principal is the same.. we have had some seriously srewed up dogs come thru our home over the years and i have seen her do wonders with simple use of clicker training, and yes halti's.. and they have gone on to be perfect . so thank you for your response's but leave it at that ..the fact is some have there own training ways which work for them and i have mine... No worries Although I do find it odd that you have gone through so many tools so unsuccessfully if your wife is such a good trainer, but hey, each to their own And BTW - the only difference between a "half check" and a check chain is that the half check allows you to fit it to the dog's neck size (which is why I find them more effective than check chains), they don't work any differently... Like I said - by all means use a halti but don't convince your self that it isn't an aversive tool - and for safety reasons walk your dogs on normal flat leashes instead of flexi ones (as the flexi leashes used in conjunction with haltis severely increase the likelihood of neck damage). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laura_3173 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I agree Sarah if we were all the same we would have nothing to talk about or discuss lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I agree dunc, lots of good info on that site. Reading through this thread from the beginning, it's clear that all the members, whilst using different "tools" (for want of a better word) manage their dogs well and lovingly. Suppose it's like with kids isn't it - some parents believe a slap on the bum is ok when disiplining but others totally disagree and see this as cruel. Bottom line, you still love your kid and do what you believe is right. Interpreting this into the thread - all members see things differently, (if we didn't, we wouldn't be human after all lol) and can agree with both arguments. All in all, a good discussion topic which has thrown out a lot of interesting facts about harnesses/collars/leads etc. Well done peeps You won't find a more controversial topic in the dog world than training, or maybe tail docking, LOL As the saying goes, 'the only thing two trainers will agree on is that the third one is wrong' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 One thing I would say smeagle is that on reading what you have put it would seem that you automatically assume people are doing things with a lack of knowledge and know less than yourself. As you can see from Richards post above his wife more experience than your entire life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 One thing I would say smeagle is that on reading what you have put it would seem that you automatically assume people are doing things with a lack of knowledge and know less than yourself. As you can see from Richards post above his wife more experience than your entire life. Marc, all I have to go on are Richard's posts. I saw lots of red flags go up - notably that fact he using a halti in conjunction with a flexi leash which is incredibly dangerous (for reasons I mentioned in my post). I have refuted the claims he has made about haltis being a pain free/non aversive tool, with facts (i.e. the location of nerves in a dog's face and the way haltis work). I think it is important to be aware of how any training tools we use on our dogs work and what they are communicating to our dogs. Anyway... I only went into detail once Richard demonstrated that he doesn't understand how various tools work (i.e. certain tools use fear and pain to communicate to the dog, and that haltis are non-aversive and pain free which is factually incorrect) and that a trainer could not possible train a dog loose leash walking within in 10 minutes without breaking it's spirit... I have seen it done with my own eyes and know that it is possible, no broken spirits involved I can supply you with various articles written by behaviourists whose opinions are the same as mine, and who have trained 1000s of dogs with great success. I was trying to post in an informative manner so that people can make an educated decision on the tools they chose to use when training their dogs. Next time I'll make sure not to bother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 No no dont take it like that ... It just seemed like you were making assumptions about Richard thats all. I actually enjoy reading a lot of your posts as they are always detailed and informative. I would not dispute that you could provide me with articles backing up your opinion, however Im sure there wil also be artucles with the oposing opinion. As you said yourself all of these things will only work when used correctly and in my opinion this would also apply to the halti. People have mentioned on this thread about the dog 'wanting' to do things, when I it contradicts the fact that you must be the alpha part of your part in order to correctly issue a command to your dog. In my opinion this kind of training no matter what the tool used is just the same, its not the want for the owner, its the doing as its instructed by the pack leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.