what age.....

[siberianandy]

do you think a puppy should leave its mother?

now we have had puppies at 7 weeks of age and we got suka at 9 weeks

but personally i don't think a puppy should leave its mom and litter mates until its 8 weeks.

what are your views

[rose]

we had a collie cross bred @ 7 weeks & she was ok . We got our other pups @ 11-12 weeks , i found they did well on the extra time @ the breeders learning the doggy language.

[jules dief taz tor]

we got dief at 8 weeks, taz at 11 weeks, and tori at 8 weeks, the only difference ive noticed is having dief for the 3 extra weeks , we did a fair bit of out and about socialising , where as taz missed that , dief is better at coping with new things , taz is loads better now lol

[Ice and Cripton]

nice one andy lol >> wanted to babble on but i didn't want to over-load that members thread with stuff that is not useful to him at the mo'

Well as i said before my trainer, world known >> not just a friend of a friend who as had a few dogs, this man has given seminars to the police about wolves and their instincs and how they resemble in dogs, he's been in America, China, Japan, >>> more places than i can remeber, giving talks on dogs. He's about 70 now and he's been training dogs since he was young, he's rescued and trained more dogs than i could possiby count. He has worked and successfully trained all breeds.

His school of thought on the matter is that in the UK (as far as i am aware and as far as i have been told) most if not all service dogs are taken away from the litter at 6 weeks, this is for the puppy to form a stronger bond with the human that will depend on them. So many charts tell us it is 'crucial' >>> in his experince he disagrees, i got Alaska at just 7 weeks and Balto at 5 months (Balto was with his mum and their other dog) >> i know which one listens to me more! Balto will choose another dog over, the family, cheese, toys..anything!! Because i took Alaska to puppy classes at 4 months >> she spent a lot of time training with the family and to be social with dogs but not just playing around, a sniff and thats it >> and Alaska is a perfect example of taking a pup away earlier, if im in the park i leave her to play for a few mins then i keep walking and i call her (she's a sibe so hands up sometimes i have to call her more than once) and she comes!!! And if she sees a dog in the distance and i call her with a toy and an invite for a game of tug-of-war and she comes to me happily, Baltz - there is no way!! >> Because all he's ever done is be with dogs, yes they were n seperate crates but Balto doesn't see the importance of humans when dogs are around >> even if the dog doesnt even want to play he will still persist on pestering it and ignore us:rolleyes:

I trust in John Uncle's teachings and trainings and he has the proof with all his dogs well trained. I would say in my opinion 6 - 9 weeks, and if you need dogs to be with another pack of dogs like sledding then some breeders will give them away at 12 -13 weeks. Again in my opinion any sooner than 6 weeks is really wrong, but i think 6 weeks is perfect!

[Sqwidge]

We got Eika at 9 weeks, we could have picked her up from between 7 and 8, but our schedule wouldn't allow it, we had things to do.

I think that it should be around 8 weeks.

[raindog]

I think in many ways this is more about leaving the littermates than the mum. By 6 weeks, most mums are getting fed up with the pups (as their teeth grow) and they are usually pretty much fully weaned.

To leave their littermates at 6 weeks is IMHO much too early. Research has shown that the 6-8 week period is when pups are learning huge amounts about interacting with other dogs from their littermates and mother.

I remember when I was a child the accepted wisdom was that it was OK for them to go at 6 weeks, but I don't think you'll come across any experienced dog person nowadays who won't plump for 8 weeks as the optimum time. I think this is particularly important when the new home doesn't have any other dogs for the puppy to learn from.

At 8 weeks, the puppy is growing in confidence and independence and is less likely to suffer separation anxiety when it leaves its littermates.

Mick

[Bec]

What Mick said

Anyway, we don't get much debate about it here because any registered breeder has to abide by the ANKC code of ethics and in some states the law which states a pup must not be sold before eight weeks.

The crucial period for puppy/human bonding is not 6-8 weeks but 8-12 weeks before the puppy goes through it's first fear period. Up to 16 weeks is when 80% of the pup's brain has developed which is why it is so important to raise our puppies successfully and 'imprint' on them during this time.

Ice:

i got Alaska at just 7 weeks and Balto at 5 months (Balto was with his mum and their other dog) >> i know which one listens to me more! Balto will choose another dog over, the family, cheese, toys..anything!! Because i took Alaska to puppy classes at 4 months >> she spent a lot of time training with the family and to be social with dogs but not just playing around, a sniff and thats it >> and Alaska is a perfect example of taking a pup away earlier, if im in the park i leave her to play for a few mins then i keep walking and i call her (she's a sibe so hands up sometimes i have to call her more than once) and she comes!!! And if she sees a dog in the distance and i call her with a toy and an invite for a game of tug-of-war and she comes to me happily, Baltz - there is no way!! >> Because all he's ever done is be with dogs, yes they were n seperate crates but Balto doesn't see the importance of humans when dogs are around >> even if the dog doesnt even want to play he will still persist on pestering it and ignore us

There is a big difference between getting a pup at 8 weeks and getting a pup at 5 months when you've missed that crucial period from 8-12 weeks. I can guarantee you that you would still have bonded with Alaska just as well had you gotten her at 8 weeks. It is from then until 12 and even 16 weeks that is the crucial bonding period.

ETA: You can say "most" service dogs are bought before 8 weeks, but even if that's true in the UK, that does not reflect the vast majority of practices in other countries like America and Australia. All trainers have their own opinions, but many 100,000s of working dogs are raised successfully with their owners from eight weeks onwards.

[Ice and Cripton]

What Mick said

Anyway, we don't get much debate about it here because any registered breeder has to abide by the ANKC code of ethics and in some states the law which states a pup must not be sold before eight weeks.

The crucial period for puppy/human bonding is not 6-8 weeks but 8-12 weeks before the puppy goes through it's first fear period. Up to 16 weeks is when 80% of the pup's brain has developed which is why it is so important to raise our puppies successfully and 'imprint' on them during this time.

There is a big difference between getting a pup at 8 weeks and getting a pup at 5 months when you've missed that crucial period from 8-12 weeks. I can guarantee you that you would still have bonded with Alaska just as well had you gotten her at 8 weeks. It is from then until 12 and even 16 weeks that is the crucial bonding period.

ETA: You can say "most" service dogs are bought before 8 weeks, but even if that's true in the UK, that does not reflect the vast majority of practices in other countries like America and Australia. All trainers have their own opinions, but many 100,000s of working dogs are raised successfully with their owners from eight weeks onwards.

Of course, Balto was 5 months and not trained, not only this but his other sibe friend JiJi was very naughty so he got some bad tricks from him:rolleyes:

I agree with you that im sure Alaska would have still bonded with me just as fine if she was 8-9weeks >> however i do not think it is crucial for them to stay >> this really comes down to experience, experiences and opinions >> John Uncle has had better success when retreived from the litter at 6 weeks and so do all his other trainers. >>> I will tend to agree whilst be open for discussion.

I got Alaska at 7 weeks and by 9 weeks she knew it all >> i think it is crucial for the human as well >> she knew sit, down, left paw, right paw, wait, her name, come >> and most important she was so loving to all the family, a real strong bond from the day i got her:) And she knows to listen to all the humans in the house, there's always a weak link in the family, whether it's the kids or the gran >> in my case it's my mum >> she's not an alpha and she spoils them rotton (someone's gotta do it lol) >> however as Alaska knows from a very young age to respect all humans and she listens to my mum and really loves her >> Balto can sometimes take the piss with my mum.

So what im trying to say is there is something very emmotionally intelligent about Alaska >> from day one she knew my mum was fragile (just found out she has MS) and she was better with her, played tug-of-war so gently it wasn't really tug-of-war at all, one day my mums arm was hurting due to the MS and she rubbed it and told me about it and baby Alaska came trotting over and licked the exact spot where it was hurting and sat by her feet >> ever since she has had this specc bond with mum:D >> I think during those young stages instead of knowing more about her litter-mates (which she got fomr her training) she learnt more about humans and about our family, and since she was going to spent her life in a human environment and with humans this made sense.

John Uncle has this old Collie that teaches all the puppies to behave and goes around telling them all off for being hyper, nosy pests lol >> Alaska was taught by this Collie and a few other dogs at training to respect older dogs and learn from their body langauge >> I think this is more important, taking them to a really good trainer as soon as they've got their jabs.

Now Alaska will great an older dog perfectly, espec if she senses he's domminant, her ears will go flat back on her head and she will wag her tail but not too high, lick the dog's mouth and roll over, let them get her scent and then they will get up and run around, best of friends. She is very respectful and sumbmissive to older dogs whilst still confident and will often tell them off if their being too keen if you know what i mean;) (all the un-nuetered dogs out there!)

Alaska got all she knew from her puppy classes, from going to a huge park 2 secs from my house, she was never and is never short of socialisation. Dont get me wrong, when i come across those people who say "yeah, got mine at 4weeks" >> my mouth drops open, if it was not a rescue and it was by choice >> this is cruelty, the mother is still teaching them things and in no way is a puppy ready, physically, or mentally to leave the comfort of his mum and litter mates. I think beyond 6 weeks is seriusly wrong!

I also think it is important for them to meet a few older dogs >> older dogs can teach puppies so much, when puppies want to play and the older dogs doesnt, this teaches them "yes a dog is around, but we dont have to go nuts and start playing!".

[Grindys]

but I don't think you'll come across any experienced dog person nowadays who won't plump for 8 weeks as the optimum time. I think this is particularly important when the new home doesn't have any other dogs for the puppy to learn from.

At 8 weeks, the puppy is growing in confidence and independence and is less likely to suffer separation anxiety when it leaves its littermates.

Mick

Mick

Sorry I'm going to have to disagree very slightly on this one, I agree research has shown that the pups are learning rapidly and accepting changes etc. around the 6-8 weeks period of life but research also showed that the optimum time for a change in life style for a pup and the time when they are most responsive in the bonding process was 7-8 weeks of age. We therefore allow our pups to leave for their new homes from 7 weeks (no earllier tho)

I hope we would be classed as experienced owners/breeders/doggy personages after all these years

Like you say at 8 weeks the pups are very confident & more independant, if they are already in their new homes they are ready to take on the world having been through the biggest day of their life when they left their mum

We often find that the mums here have enough of the pups by 5 or 6 weeks and have seen us take bitches away from pups at 6 weeks. in fact one of our most successful 6-dog teams (retired now) are very well adjusted dogs, yet their mum left them of her own choice at 5 weeks! Maybe the working dogs are less accepting of being dragged round by 6 pups ours are just too keen to get back to work after whelping and I think they find it boring being stuck in the house baby sitting

Lynn

[raindog]

No problem Lynn. I think the difference between 7 and 8 weeks is marginal, but the difference between 6 and 8 weeks is significant. I agree than mums often lose interest after 5 or 6 weeks, which is why I think that the time spent with littermates between 5 and 8 weeks is so important.

Mick

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

i cnt rly comment on this 1 what wit getting Bing when he was 3 yrs old-ish and Blaze at 7 weeks i always thought it was 8 weeks but obv if the pups r ok and healthy i dont see a problem wit them leavin at 7 weeks anything before that tho i no is WAY to early!

[Ice and Cripton]

Mick

Sorry I'm going to have to disagree very slightly on this one, I agree research has shown that the pups are learning rapidly and accepting changes etc. around the 6-8 weeks period of life but research also showed that the optimum time for a change in life style for a pup and the time when they are most responsive in the bonding process was 7-8 weeks of age. We therefore allow our pups to leave for their new homes from 7 weeks (no earllier tho)

I hope we would be classed as experienced owners/breeders/doggy personages after all these years

Like you say at 8 weeks the pups are very confident & more independant, if they are already in their new homes they are ready to take on the world having been through the biggest day of their life when they left their mum

We often find that the mums here have enough of the pups by 5 or 6 weeks and have seen us take bitches away from pups at 6 weeks. in fact one of our most successful 6-dog teams (retired now) are very well adjusted dogs, yet their mum left them of her own choice at 5 weeks! Maybe the working dogs are less accepting of being dragged round by 6 pups ours are just too keen to get back to work after whelping and I think they find it boring being stuck in the house baby sitting

Lynn

Good point Lynn >> i agree we all have our different thoughts on the matter, but my also "experinced" and responsable dog owner, rescuer and trainer has had better success with pups taken away at 6-7 weeks. It's vital to get a strong bond with the humans first >> thats why its even best to get the one dog and keep it seperate from your current pack >> dont let them sleep together, play together >> seperate walks >> thats what we did >> otherwise they would be focused on each other and not listen to us.

No problem Lynn. I think the difference between 7 and 8 weeks is marginal, but the difference between 6 and 8 weeks is significant. I agree than mums often lose interest after 5 or 6 weeks, which is why I think that the time spent with littermates between 5 and 8 weeks is so important.

Mick

Mick i disagree >> the mum has taught them by 6 weeks, not to nip or be too rough, then all the litter-mates have to do is play >> this is not teaching them anything new, they know by 6 weeks a yelp or cry from a fellow litter mate means they have nipped too hard >>> puppies know how to play from the get go, their not learning anything new but they are forming stronger bonds with their brothers and sisters.

Scientificly there is no reason for them to stay, they are strong have had all the defense from their mothers milk and have been on solids successfully for 3 weeks.

6-8 weeks they form their most deviant bonds with either dogs or humans...

[Bec]

Mick i disagree >> the mum has taught them by 6 weeks, not to nip or be too rough, then all the litter-mates have to do is play >> this is not teaching them anything new, they know by 6 weeks a yelp or cry from a fellow litter mate means they have nipped too hard >>> puppies know how to play from the get go, their not learning anything new but they are forming stronger bonds with their brothers and sisters.

Scientificly there is no reason for them to stay, they are strong have had all the defense from their mothers milk and have been on solids successfully for 3 weeks.

6-8 weeks they form their most deviant bonds with either dogs or humans...

Ice, I would suggest it depends on what research you read. One trainers opinion is certainly not conclusive enough evidence to support the notion that puppies are fine being taken away at six weeks. There are many other trainers, behaviourists, breeders, pet owners etc that feel otherwise and research that indicates otherwise too.

As I said my trainer also trains service dogs (police dogs, protection dogs, SAR dogs etc) and he does intense puppy raising and bonding from eight weeks on wards. He actually runs puppy raising courses that commence from eight weeks, a little bit like you mentioned with your dogs, they are based on the concept of neutralisation and socialisation. To infer that you can't build as strong a bond with a pup, especially a working dog, if you get it from eight weeks is in my experience (and the experience of many professionals) inaccurate. In terms of the way a puppy's brain grows and develops, 8-12 weeks is the crucial age for bonding.

[Grindys]

Ice, I would suggest it depends on what research you read. One trainers opinion is certainly not conclusive enough evidence to support the notion that puppies are fine being taken away at six weeks. There are many other trainers, behaviourists, breeders, pet owners etc that feel otherwise and research that indicates otherwise too.

As I said my trainer also trains service dogs (police dogs, protection dogs, SAR dogs etc) and he does intense puppy raising and bonding from eight weeks on wards. He actually runs puppy raising courses that commence from eight weeks, a little bit like you mentioned with your dogs, they are based on the concept of neutralisation and socialisation. To infer that you can't build as strong a bond with a pup, especially a working dog, if you get it from eight weeks is in my experience (and the experience of many professionals) inaccurate. In terms of the way a puppy's brain grows and develops, 8-12 weeks is the crucial age for bonding.

Hi Smeagle

Interesting reading, I agree that it is much too soon at 6 weeks of age. I wouldn't want any of our babes leaving the roost at that young an age although as I said before at 7 weeks they seem to be ready although to be honest it is usually the latter end of the 7th week. 7 weeks has been proven to be the optimum time to move pups to a new homes and for them to start the bonding process which of course does not happen overnight. I think this is where a lot of new pet owners get worried about pups not settling to their new homes, at 12 weeks of age most pups have bonded with their new family.

Im not sure who inferred that that you can't build as strong relationship with pups (working or not) that leave home at 8 weeks? I'm probably just missing the point??? The bonding process is an ongoing life skill that pups adjust to along with learning the solicalisiation skills that are needed to get through the rest of their lives. Therefore although the optimum time to leave is quoted at 7 weeks+ it does not infer that the bonding process takes place on that one day that the pup leaves it's mother and siblings

I think this thread makes for interesting reading for all levels of dog ownership. It makes a change to have a thread that obviously stirs emotions from different parties, yet all offering their advice/experiences manage to maintain their dignity and are willing to accept each others view points

[Bec]

Hi Smeagle

Interesting reading, I agree that it is much too soon at 6 weeks of age. I wouldn't want any of our babes leaving the roost at that young an age although as I said before at 7 weeks they seem to be ready although to be honest it is usually the latter end of the 7th week. 7 weeks has been proven to be the optimum time to move pups to a new homes and for them to start the bonding process which of course does not happen overnight. I think this is where a lot of new pet owners get worried about pups not settling to their new homes, at 12 weeks of age most pups have bonded with their new family.

Im not sure who inferred that that you can't build as strong relationship with pups (working or not) that leave home at 8 weeks? I'm probably just missing the point??? The bonding process is an ongoing life skill that pups adjust to along with learning the solicalisiation skills that are needed to get through the rest of their lives. Therefore although the optimum time to leave is quoted at 7 weeks+ it does not infer that the bonding process takes place on that one day that the pup leaves it's mother and siblings

I think this thread makes for interesting reading for all levels of dog ownership. It makes a change to have a thread that obviously stirs emotions from different parties, yet all offering their advice/experiences manage to maintain their dignity and are willing to accept each others view points

I was responding more to Ice's posts that said her trainer found he builds a better and stronger bond with pups taken at six weeks IME it is quite possible to build a great bond with a pup you have from eight weeks and on wards and you can still have a great working dog from that age too. When we are talking about a pup you get at eight weeks it is about HOW you raise it that is important.

Like I stated at the start of the thread, we don't get much debate on this subject here in Australia because it is part of the code of ethics for ANKC registered breeders that they must not sell a pup before eight weeks, and in some states it's a legal requirement for anyone (even unregistered breeders). Therefore anyone here who sells a pup before eight weeks is either doing some thing illegal, violating the COE or is unregistered, backyard breeder.

I don't think a couple of days either way will make much of a difference, but all the research I've read and everything I've learnt from various canine workshops and seminars etc is that eight weeks is the optimum time to place pups in their new homes, and eight weeks is the guideline that breeders and trainers work by.

[Ice and Cripton]

Ice, I would suggest it depends on what research you read. One trainers opinion is certainly not conclusive enough evidence to support the notion that puppies are fine being taken away at six weeks. There are many other trainers, behaviourists, breeders, pet owners etc that feel otherwise and research that indicates otherwise too.

As I said my trainer also trains service dogs (police dogs, protection dogs, SAR dogs etc) and he does intense puppy raising and bonding from eight weeks on wards. He actually runs puppy raising courses that commence from eight weeks, a little bit like you mentioned with your dogs, they are based on the concept of neutralisation and socialisation. To infer that you can't build as strong a bond with a pup, especially a working dog, if you get it from eight weeks is in my experience (and the experience of many professionals) inaccurate. In terms of the way a puppy's brain grows and develops, 8-12 weeks is the crucial age for bonding.

I do think a very strong bond can be formed easily at this stage >> then again a dog being rescued at 5 years can form an equally stronger bond but it just takes longer. Saying this i would probably get soo attached to the little guys i would never want them to leave home lol:rolleyes:

[Grindys]

Like I stated at the start of the thread, we don't get much debate on this subject here in Australia because it is part of the code of ethics for ANKC registered breeders that they must not sell a pup before eight weeks, and in some states it's a legal requirement for anyone (even unregistered breeders). Therefore anyone here who sells a pup before eight weeks is either doing some thing illegal, violating the COE or is unregistered, backyard breeder.

Hey Smeagle

If I didn't know better I could almost take offence at being referred to as a possible backyard breeder

I do agree with what you say though and would be interested in seeing links to the research you are quoting from, very keen to see articles/research that I have not yet come across

Lynn

[Bec]

Hey Smeagle

If I didn't know better I could almost take offence at being referred to as a possible backyard breeder

I do agree with what you say though and would be interested in seeing links to the research you are quoting from, very keen to see articles/research that I have not yet come across

Lynn

Hence why I highlighted the word "here" (as in, in Australia).

Because it's the law in some states, and part of the ANKC code of ethics, you can assume HERE that any one who sells pups under the age of eight weeks is either:

- A breeder who is not ANKC registered (a backyard breeder) and therefore not someone who has to uphold their COE (if you are in a state where it is legal to sell pups before 8 weeks)

- breaking the law (depending where you live)

- a registered breeder who is in direct violation of the COE and therefore not reputable

Obviously this would not be the case if you live in another country where the kennel club or government don't care if you sell a pup before the age of eight weeks. But because we are so strict about it here, it's hard to wrap your head around the idea that it's ok to do so differently in other places. I definitely wasn't insinuating you were a BYB But that a breeder who sold a pup before eight weeks here is considered a BYB/dodgy because of the law/COE we have to uphold.

I am in the office at the moment but will see if I can find some research for you when I get home

ETA:

As I said in a previous post, I don't think a couple of days either side will make a huge difference but eight weeks is (at least here) the general guideline that all responsible and reputable breeders abide by.

[Bec]

Just quickly, to give you an example of what I mean until I have some more time to add more detailed research, this article gives an outline of why it is often accepted now that from 8 weeks is an ideal time to place pups in their new homes:

http://www.ccc.govt.nz/Animals/CriticalPuppyDevelopment.asp#8to12

The optimum time for taking a puppy into a new household is at the end of the seventh week and the beginning of the puppy's fourth critical period.

8th to 12th Week: This fourth critical period extends to the 12th week of the puppy's life. Since the puppy's trainability, or learning facilities, are operating at full capacity now, it is better that he do his learning from his new owner. And learn he will. This period marks a time when the puppy will learn at a fast and furious pace. Although the "come, sit, stay and no" commands are invaluable if taught during the fourth period, perhaps the most important single response during this period is learning to fetch. At first glance this may sound unnecessary and unimportant.

When talking about the critical periods of a puppy's development they are often talked about in 'stages' or 'cycles'. 8-12 weeks is considered the key socialisation period because of the reasons talked about above, it is the ideal time to social the pup and teach the pup before it enters into the next phase (the first fear period, which the article above actually skips over, a more detailed development calendar breaks down the last stage into the fear period and then the rank/shaping period). Which is why the start of this phase (eight weeks) is considered the best time to move a pup to it's new home. It's why organisations like the Guide Dog Association will place pups into carers homes at eight weeks etc.

When given the choice of course some breeders will do things differently to others. I've read research that suggests seven weeks it ok, I've read research that suggests it's too early and that eight weeks is more ideal etc (albeit all the books/papers I've read on puppy development that have suggested earlier than eight weeks is ok is quite old, whereas more recent books/papers etc recommend eight weeks as the ideal time - although that could just be the ones I've read, I certainly haven't read everything there is to read out there!). What you chose to go for is up to the individual (as long as they abide by any relevant laws/COE).