Ice and Cripton Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Basically next year we were considering buying another sibe puppy, by then our sibes will be 2 years, trained and somewhat matured and settled. We really liked this breeders and their in essex and have offered for us to come down and meet their dogs. They are KC but do not disagree with breeding with a non KC sibe, for example they said if Alaska had her hip and eye score done and she got low scores they would offer a stud service >>> we don't know if we are going to breed Alaska and keep one of her puppies or just go to a breeder and buy one... but all their dogs are hip and eye tested and are kc, and are well looked after... what do you think of them: http://www.siberpaws.com/index.html they also have an information page too: http://www.siberpaws.com/gpage7.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Basically next year we were considering buying another sibe puppy, by then our sibes will be 2 years, trained and somewhat matured and settled. We really liked this breeders and their in essex and have offered for us to come down and meet their dogs. They are KC but do not disagree with breeding with a non KC sibe, for example they said if Alaska had her hip and eye score done and she got low scores they would offer a stud service >>> we don't know if we are going to breed Alaska and keep one of her puppies or just go to a breeder and buy one... but all their dogs are hip and eye tested and are kc, and are well looked after... what do you think of them: http://www.siberpaws.com/index.html they also have an information page too: http://www.siberpaws.com/gpage7.html I would run far away from any breeder who would happily backyard breed (use an unregistered dog). Health testing may be well and good but without a pedigree you have no idea on the lines behind the dog and if it will be compatible with the lines in your kennel. There is more to breeding then just health testing just as there is more to breeding then simply mating two pedigree dogs together. An ethical breeder would IMO never mate an unregistered dog, I absolutely detest backyard breeders and would never ever ever advocate breeding from an unpapered dog. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Couldn't agree more Smeagle Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 quick question just need 1 answer not loads cuz i dnt wanna take over ice's thread but what if a pup isnt registered cuz the bitch had kc restrictions put on her so u cudnt show or wrk her pups?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 If the breeders of the mother/father have put restrictions on the bitch (or the stud dog) and those restrictions have been wilfully ignored by the owners, then, as long as the restrictions were made clear to the owners at the time of purchase of the dog/bitch, the KC will not remove the restrictions and the pups cannot be registered. These restrictions are put there by breeders to protect the dog/bitch from becoming breeding machines in the hands of BYB's, Puppy Farmers etc. In the majority of cases, responsible, ethical breeders will insist that a contract is signed by puppy buyers (a) acknowledging that breeding restrictions are placed on the KC paperwork; and ( agreeing to abide by the terms of the contract. No responsible person would sign a contract and then ignore it. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 In the majority of cases, responsible, ethical breeders will insist that a contract is signed by puppy buyers (a) acknowledging that breeding restrictions are placed on the KC paperwork; and ( agreeing to abide by the terms of the contract. No responsible person would sign a contract and then ignore it. ok thanks mick another quicky then what if the buyer ov the pup didnt have 2 sign anythin sayin he knew that the parent has a kc restriction? just curious lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 I wouldn't class siberpaws as a back yard breeder: BACKYARD BREEDERS ARE - **Anyone who has a litter for fun, profit or by ‘accident’. **Anyone who is so uninformed that they think having AKC papers means that their pet is breeding quality. REDICULOUS!! **Anyone who advertises their litters in the local paper for sale. (respected breeders only advertise in trade magazines) **Anyone who thinks that by finding their puppies good homes that they somehow don’t have to play by the rules or take responsibility. MANY WILL STILL ULTIMATELY END UP IN THE POUND AFTER YEARS OF ABUSE OR NEGLECT!!! **Anyone who thinks they found their litter good homes, simply because everyone that took one, smiled honestly and ‘promised’ to treat them well.. Thus insisting on no background check, no enforceable contract or any type of follow up. A PERFECT RECIPE FOR A SAD LIFE FOR THE POOR PUPPY. **People will provide erroneous information to the potential adopters regarding the required care and treatment necessary for the pet - simply for their own personal gains and claim to know much more than they really do for ego boosts. **Respectable breeders will have walls adorned with trophies and certificates which represent the numerous championships they’ve acquired over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 To be honest with you all, i do not think by breeding two unregistered or one unregistered dog makes you a BYB, i dont think KC papers amount to anything bar a guarantee of health and hereditary problems (in over 200 kc breeds), i truly believe in health testing and quality of life are far more important than a few papers, i think siberpaws do say you have to sign a contact in order have one of their puppies >> i agree health testing, temperament testing and testing the breed of it's ability to do what it was bred to do is a must for breeding, but the only thing the kc offers is allowing you to go to crufts and know who the grandparents are >> which is not always helpful as a dog with a 5 generation pedigree is still not eligible to breed until they undergo health-checks. I dont even mind if my next sibe is not kc, as long as both parents have had all sufficient health checks, and are fit to breed from, im far more concerned with having a sibe that has a good start in life and will live a long, healthy happy life An unregistered sibe can still run in harness, can still go to plenty of fun, local shows, and can still be a mischievous sibe!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 I wouldn't class siberpaws as a back yard breeder: I won't comment about individual breeders but I will respond to some of your points: BACKYARD BREEDERS ARE - **Anyone who has a litter for fun, profit or by accident. Couldn't agree more **Anyone who is so uninformed that they think having AKC papers means that their pet is breeding quality. REDICULOUS!! I would expand this to say that it should include anyone who thinks that having KC papers (AKC only applies in the US) means that their pet is breeding quality. The only realistic way to establish the quality of a Siberian Husky is by assessing its performance in either the showring or on the trail working in harness (preferably both). If you don't show or work your dogs, how can you possibly know how well they measure up to the breed standard? **Anyone who advertises their litters in the local paper for sale. (respected breeders only advertise in trade magazines) Here in the UK, it is extremely unusual for good, reputable, ethical breeders to need to advertise their litters anywhere. These breeders usually have a waiting list for their pups. *Anyone who thinks that by finding their puppies good homes that they somehow dont have to play by the rules or take responsibility. MANY WILL STILL ULTIMATELY END UP IN THE POUND AFTER YEARS OF ABUSE OR NEGLECT!!! **Anyone who thinks they found their litter good homes, simply because everyone that took one, smiled honestly and promised to treat them well.. Thus insisting on no background check, no enforceable contract or any type of follow up. A PERFECT RECIPE FOR A SAD LIFE FOR THE POOR PUPPY. No argument with any of that **People will provide erroneous information to the potential adopters regarding the required care and treatment necessary for the pet - simply for their own personal gains and claim to know much more than they really do for ego boosts. Agreed - many of the dogs we get in to welfare come in with issues resulting from incorrect information given to the new owners. **Respectable breeders will have walls adorned with trophies and certificates which represent the numerous championships theyve acquired over the years. Some will, some won't. It is a matter of personal choice. To be honest, a much better way of sussing out a breeder is to use the Kaylenberg website to check them out: http://www.kaylenbergsiberians.com/BreedersOnline.htm If you are interested in a breeder, see how they measure up using the info on that site. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Ive never heard of Siber Paws before and so wouldnt want to make too much of fuss about them. It says that most of tehir currents dogs are from Artikchill, I would be very tempted to contact Artikchill and check that up. I would also want to know why they would be happy to stud one of their dogs to mate with an ungregistered bitch as Ive never come accross this before with any other kennel. I would also want to see proof of health tests and KC registration of each of their dogs before paying anything and would also want to go and visit them and their dogs at their home as well. I would want to know if they work or show any of their dogs. To be honest I know that they sound good but I would be tempted to go to a breeder whom I know is reputable and not to the first one I see either, look around first. I would also advise, to look into getting an adopted Sibe from SHWA, Im sure Mick would be able to help you out with this, as there are so many sibes having to be rehomed due to no fault of their own but for being bought by an inexperienced owner who cant handle them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 ok thanks mick another quicky then what if the buyer ov the pup didnt have 2 sign anythin sayin he knew that the parent has a kc restriction? just curious lol If that was the case, then the KC would lift the breeding restrictions on the puppy. If the pup wasn't registered, then there is nothing the KC can do as only the breeder can register a puppy. I dont even mind if my next sibe is not kc, as long as both parents have had all sufficient health checks, and are fit to breed from, im far more concerned with having a sibe that has a good start in life and will live a long, healthy happy life I would be the first to admit that the KC is not perfect. There are loads of things I would like to see them tighten up on. Having said that, the KC and its registration system is the best that we have at the moment. Why would you want something less than the best? - especially considering that a KC registered pup from work and show tested, health tested parents is often no more expensive that a non-KC reg pup from any old dog and any old bitch. Statistically speaking, a non-KC dog has a much greater chance of ending up in welfare than does a KC registered dog. Since we started SHWA, we have rehomed 285 dogs. Of these more than 95% were not KC registered and of the few KC registered dogs we have taken in, only 2 were from breeders we would regard as reputable (ie breeders we might consider buying a pup from) and in those cases, the dogs had been put into welfare without the knowledge of the breeders who took their dogs back immediately once they knew we had them. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Ive never heard of Siber Paws before and so wouldnt want to make too much of fuss about them. It says that most of tehir currents dogs are from Artikchill, I would be very tempted to contact Artikchill and check that up. I would also want to know why they would be happy to stud one of their dogs to mate with an ungregistered bitch as Ive never come accross this before with any other kennel. I would also want to see proof of health tests and KC registration of each of their dogs before paying anything and would also want to go and visit them and their dogs at their home as well. I would want to know if they work or show any of their dogs. To be honest I know that they sound good but I would be tempted to go to a breeder whom I know is reputable and not to the first one I see either, look around first. I would also advise, to look into getting an adopted Sibe from SHWA, Im sure Mick would be able to help you out with this, as there are so many sibes having to be rehomed due to no fault of their own but for being bought by an inexperienced owner who cant handle them. I would love to rescue a sibe and one day will, but right now i dont think i could cope, it needs a lot of experience to rescue a grown dog let alone a sibe, we got balto at 5 months and he had a lot of issues and was sort of a rescue and he was/is very difficult to train even now at 11 months. It is a lot easier to train a small puppy, and i think it is wise to be certain you could handle a rescue or it might end up back in a rescue which i would hate >> so it's one to think about carefully.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Mick - thanks for that site:) im guessing it's because a large percentage of people who breed unregistered dogs dont give a 'whoo haar' about where they go - as long as their pockets are full, im guessing they give them to un-fit homes and have no contract in place, i firmly believe in having a legal binding contract which stats if you cant look after the dog he/she must be returned to the breeder. Also regular check-ups, these people you should know and have contact with, you should be able to call them, mail them and go and see them, in my opinion they should now become a part of your life now they have one of your puppies. Home checks are also imporant and these new potential owners should be quized within an inch of their lives >>> perminent, stable, loving and secure homes are best! I know a lot will disagree with me but i see the KC for what it is >> a bit of paper saying your sibe is in fact a sibe, one look at my girl and you know she's a sibe, she fits the breed standard in height, weight, and persona I agree with you they should in fact be sibes and i know you stand for healthy dogs so im sure you do all sufficient health checks and tests, i am for what any 'repuatable' breeders are for ( i really am!) bar one thing! >> papers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 I know a lot will disagree with me but i see the KC for what it is >> a bit of paper saying your sibe is in fact a sibe, one look at my girl and you know she's a sibe, she fits the breed standard in height, weight, and persona I agree with you they should in fact be sibes and i know you stand for healthy dogs so im sure you do all sufficient health checks and tests, i am for what any 'repuatable' breeders are for ( i really am!) bar one thing! >> papers! I know what you are saying, and in an ideal world I would probably agree. I'm not usually one to stick up for bureaucracy and formality. However - without papers you cannot show your dogs in shows which actually mean anything (Open Shows and Championship Shows), so how can you be sure that the dogs that you are breeding are of sufficiently high quality to breed? Similarly, many, if not most of the racing organisations don't allow unregistered Sibes to take part in their events (although many make special arrangements for rescue dogs). As an example, take our boy Tovik. Healthwise he is 100%. He is one of our best workers. He did reasonable well in the showring as a puppy, but as he has grown, he has not developed as we had hoped he might. He is still a very, very good Siberian, but for us, he isn't quite good enough to breed from. Because of that he has been neutered and will stay with us as a much-loved pet and working dog. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 wow - Ice - great Thread starter, thank you to mick - i've learnt a lot from this that i thought i knew but didn't Rep added all round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 I would love to rescue a sibe and one day will, but right now i dont think i could cope, it needs a lot of experience to rescue a grown dog let alone a sibe, we got balto at 5 months and he had a lot of issues and was sort of a rescue and he was/is very difficult to train even now at 11 months. It is a lot easier to train a small puppy, and i think it is wise to be certain you could handle a rescue or it might end up back in a rescue which i would hate >> so it's one to think about carefully.... not all rescues will come with alot of issues and you get great rewards from doing so However, I can see your point and wont argue the fact. I would advise to keep looking around for a breeder and the advise on the link that Mick supplied you with is definately full of great advise. Keep us updated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 wow - Ice - great Thread starter, thank you to mick - i've learnt a lot from this that i thought i knew but didn't Rep added all round Thanks Sara, ive learnt a lot aswell!! Mick - another thing i hugely disagree with, since when did papers make good racing dogs, the Chuckchi's werent fussesd about all of this yet kc books readily thank them for this wonderful breed, nor did they show them...yet here we are today with this supherb breed! I love the idea of showing on the surface (i think some take the whole cosmetic thing too far, but on the whole it's a lot of fun for dog and owner) however the local shows offer a lot as well, training your sibe offers a lot, im sure crufts is not the only way of telling if a dog is suitable or not. I don't like the fact that a kc dog is deemed a 'correct' dog and anything else is a mutt...and why? because they say so! I wish the Kc wasn't so flawed and, i would be behind them 100% but im afraid i will not settle for it's all we've got, when we went to Hampshire, Limmington a lot of families asked if we were planning to breed from alaska, nice families, with young children, big homes, big gardens, near a beach and park, nice stable people who would spay/nueter the dog and have them as a part of the family regardless of papers. Im sure if all within the Kc and all breeders were more like you the KC wouldn't have so much controversy, and like you said in an ideal world lol I wish they let un-registered sibes race though >> they can some of the best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 another thing i hugely disagree with, since when did papers make good racing dogs, the Chuckchi's werent fussesd about all of this yet kc books readily thank them for this wonderful breed, nor did they show them...yet here we are today with this supherb breed! The reason why we are here today with this superb breed is that in 1930, a group of Siberian Husky enthusiasts got together to create the first Siberian Husky Breed Standard. This standard was an attempt to distill the essence of the best of the dogs imported from Siberia - to create a blueprint against which all future Siberian Huskies could be measured and assessed for quality. This is especially important for us here in the UK where we cannot test our dogs' working abilities completely as we do not have the temperatures nor the distances to do so. We can test whether our dogs have a good working attitude (which is not necessarily the same as a good racing attitude, but that is a completely different argument) but we cannot test their endurance over distance in arctic conditions. Because of this, the breed standard (and showing) becomes more important than perhaps it should be. Why? - because a dog which fits the breed standard should have the capability of being a good endurance sled dog. A dog which has a fault in its conformation - eg legs too long or too short - is likely to be less effective. I love the idea of showing on the surface (i think some take the whole cosmetic thing too far, but on the whole it's a lot of fun for dog and owner) however the local shows offer a lot as well, training your sibe offers a lot, im sure crufts is not the only way of telling if a dog is suitable or not. I don't like the fact that a kc dog is deemed a 'correct' dog and anything else is a mutt...and why? because they say so! No-one is saying a KC registered dog is "correct" - very few dogs, KC registered or not are without faults. There are bad breeders who always KC register their dogs just as there are bad breeders who don't. KC registration is just one box to be ticked on a list of what makes a good breeder. The Breed Standard isn't created by the Kennel Club, it is created by the Breed Clubs, who then submit it to the KC for endorsement. In the case of Siberian Huskies, there is very little substantive difference between our Breed Standard and the original standard created back in 1930 in the US. I wish the Kc wasn't so flawed and, i would be behind them 100% but im afraid i will not settle for it's all we've got, when we went to Hampshire, Limmington a lot of families asked if we were planning to breed from alaska, nice families, with young children, big homes, big gardens, near a beach and park, nice stable people who would spay/nueter the dog and have them as a part of the family regardless of papers. It's not all we've got, but it is the best we've got at the moment. And what's the alternative? Anyone and everyone deciding to breed their pets because they think they are lovely! Don't get me wrong, I don't think that breeding should be an exclusive, snobby club. On the contrary, it would be fantastic if there were more excellent breeders out there that we could recommend to people looking for sibes. The more good breeders, the less likely it would be that people would end up with the puppy farmers, backyard breeders and naive/greedy "pet" breeders, and the less likely it would be that so many dogs ended up in welfare. I wish they let un-registered sibes race though >> they can some of the best! I agree. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Wow thanks for that Mick << learnt a lot! May i aska question, I am still deciding whether to breed Alaska or not >>> say when she's 2 years old she fits the breed standard height and weight, and even characteristics, she has passed her intermediate obdeiance class, she has won a few shows for all non kc and kc dogs, her hip and eye scores are perfect or very low, she is in top health and all heritory tests that can be done have been done, She is of course a 110% pure sibe >> she fits all the standards and she obviously looks like one >>> we test her working attitude and she has a good drive and makes a good sibe in harness >>> what in your opinion would be your reason not to breed from her? Do you think the KC should do tests to deterime whether she is a full sibe or not and register her>> like a blood test? To stop a sibe in potential to add if not improve sibe stocks? Why should she not be able to have puppies if she is of the standard of kc bitches who are also of the standard to breed? I would never breed alaska if: - she was not healthy - her hip and eye score were too high - she did not fit the UK sibe standard - she had bad behavioural problems - she did not excell in obdeiance classes - she had a poor working ethic - she was bad at showing - suffered heriditory problems and this does not include the lenghts i would go to, to assure good homes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Ask yourself WHY you want to breed her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Ask yourself WHY you want to breed her. For the very reasons above, if she does meet those targets, she really will be a cretit and i would love the keep a puppy myself >>> IF she meets certain targets and only if:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 OK - this would be my take on it. I don't know Alaska, so this is based on a hypothetical situation which would be the same for any bitch. 1. Is she KC registered? If not, no matter how well she does on all the other measures, I wouldn't breed from her. 2. Has she been assessed in the showring by top level judges (ie in Championship Shows) or has a top-level judge independently assessed her? To be honest, the British system doesn't help much in this respect. In Europe, under FCI rules, judges at Champ Shows must assess and grade all the dogs they judge. In my view, no dog should be bred from unless it is graded "Excellent", but as I said, unless you show in Europe, you are unlikely to come across that system of judging. In the absence of that, I would suggest that it is best to breed only from dogs which have achieved their Kennel Club Studbook Number. 3. Do you honestly believe that by breeding your bitch you would be helping to improve the general quality of sibes in the UK? So, if she was KC registered, had her stud book number, was good enough to help improve the breed and also fulfilled all the other factors you have mentioned I might consider breeding her as long as I could find a compatible stud dog (that's a whole other can of worms) and I had sufficient good homes lined up for her pups. Even then I might hesitate, as breeding, if done properly, is an expensive, time-consuming and emotionally draining experience - especially if things go wrong (as they sometimes do). We once had a litter where the mum had to have a caesarian and rejected the pups. We had to handrear the pups, which involved hourly feeds for almost two weeks. On top of that two of the pups died - a real heartbreaker when you have put so much effort into helping them survive. At the end of the day, we were left with 4 healthy pups, total exhaustion and a vet bill of approx 3000. That was a very unusual situation, but one which prospective breeders must be prepared for - physically, mentally and financially. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 lol i think she is a very good sibe, i would love to meet you...are you coming to the next meet up? I think she is a real pearl, calm, considerate, loving,loyal,obediant >> everyone always says how good she is, we have trained her to turn when i say gee or haw and so on (in harness) >> she actually hasn't got on a rig before though, she's only 11mnths >> she focuses on me and has excelled in all her training classes. I would say one of your main reasons is she has no papers >> i think this system to be flawed >> they should not determine whether a dog is fit or not >>> but by many other things. You must be thinking "typical pet owner thinking her pet is good enough to breed from" We thought Balto would be a good stud, and then we relised although we love him he is in NO way stud material lol so we got him done >> i really do think Alaska is a prime example of the breed..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic_Sibe Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 OK - this would be my take on it. I don't know Alaska, so this is based on a hypothetical situation which would be the same for any bitch. 1. Is she KC registered? If not, no matter how well she does on all the other measures, I wouldn't breed from her. 2. Has she been assessed in the showring by top level judges (ie in Championship Shows) or has a top-level judge independently assessed her? To be honest, the British system doesn't help much in this respect. In Europe, under FCI rules, judges at Champ Shows must assess and grade all the dogs they judge. In my view, no dog should be bred from unless it is graded "Excellent", but as I said, unless you show in Europe, you are unlikely to come across that system of judging. In the absence of that, I would suggest that it is best to breed only from dogs which have achieved their Kennel Club Studbook Number. 3. Do you honestly believe that by breeding your bitch you would be helping to improve the general quality of sibes in the UK? So, if she was KC registered, had her stud book number, was good enough to help improve the breed and also fulfilled all the other factors you have mentioned I might consider breeding her as long as I could find a compatible stud dog (that's a whole other can of worms) and I had sufficient good homes lined up for her pups. Even then I might hesitate, as breeding, if done properly, is an expensive, time-consuming and emotionally draining experience - especially if things go wrong (as they sometimes do). We once had a litter where the mum had to have a caesarian and rejected the pups. We had to handrear the pups, which involved hourly feeds for almost two weeks. On top of that two of the pups died - a real heartbreaker when you have put so much effort into helping them survive. At the end of the day, we were left with 4 healthy pups, total exhaustion and a vet bill of approx 3000. That was a very unusual situation, but one which prospective breeders must be prepared for - physically, mentally and financially. Mick I agree 100% with Mick on this. I am holding off having Kiana neutered as I want to show her, her elder brother and auntie are show dogs and are doing quite well, and we hope that she will also do well. However if she does not meet the breed standard she will be neutered at the earliest opportunity. No one should be breeding from dogs for profit, dogs should only be bred to maintain/improve the breed. If you want my opinion having met Mick I believe he is an extremely knowledgable and intelligent guy and would take his advice with open arms. His dogs are a credit to the breed and his responsibility to improve the breed has my utmost respect, after all the dog he mentions above would probably be perfect to most of us, but in his opinion he is not to standard. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted May 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 i agree, no dog should be bred to make a profit, i just disagree that a dog must be kc, i appreciate all the time youve put into this thread Mick, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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