siberian_wolf Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 I think Marley is needing to loose his 2 best friends (his blueberries)! As most of you know, Gizmo is alpha but since last night Im thinking Marley is taking charge! First of all, he kept attacking poor Bandit (Some day he will be attack free the poor darling) for no apparent reason. There was no food, no toys, Bandit wasnt even looking at him! Bandit is terrified of Marley now and he was sat in the corner of the living room all night! Eventually I took him upstairs with me, away from Marley, where he came and cuddled up next to me and went to sleep. Then Marley launched to Gizmo!!!! Knowing what Gizmo can get like when he is challenged I thought he may put Marley back in his place, but he didnt and then Gizmo, like Bandit, was terrified - poor boy didnt know what to do!!! Then Gizmo was shoved in a corner and was scared to come out :eek:, not like Gizmo at all, he usually stands his ground but not this time! So as Gizmo was completely terrified, I ended up with both Bandit and Gizmo upstairs laid out on the bed one cuddled on either side. As sweet as it was to have two sibes cuddled up to me, I couldnt help but feel so bad about what happened down stairs! We pinned Marley to the ground when he did attack but as soon as we let him, he went back again! Then Jamie came up and said if Marley doesnt calm down after being neutured and continues to attack, he will have to be rehomed! I burst straight into tears, how could he say that when we have other options if he does continue! I would rather spend the money and get him seen by a behaviourist than give up just like that!!!! Last night was the first time Marley has been like that, he used to snap at them if they tried to pinch his food but never for no obvious reason. Dominance is the only reason I can think of why Marley is being like that, he backs straight down to us, its just Gizmo and Bandit! Why is it always Bandit that gets attacked? My poor darling, I feel terrible at the moment, I dont want to give up on them and I DEFINATELY dont want to get rid of ANY of them but its also NOT fair on Bandit and Gizmo having to be fearful of Marley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie62 Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Like we spoke earlier dont give up , might just be a one off amy. But i think dominance is behind it , they might just be sorting there peaking order out as they do in the wild. Dont really no what to sugest but dont give up . I am sure you will get help on hear ..xxxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 aww poor boys hope it all gets sorted soon wish i had an idea ov how to help we need smeagle here! hugs 2 u bandit and gizmo and marley too good luck hope he gets sorted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeiperSky7 Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Amy, It may just be a one-off hopefully ? I'd highly recommend "The Dog Listener" which is quite an old book now ( 2000 I think) but full of useful ideas on working with dogs and using their own rules and psychology.It relates all dog behaviour to how a wolf pack works and recommends a whole range of things - the five minute "ignore" rule when you first see the dogs/come home & the "gesture" eating when you have a biscuit behind their bowls at feeding time and make a great show of eating before they do etc. All of this introduces and renforces the principal that you are the Pack Leader & should help marley to know his place in the pecking order. I'm sure that many of the multiple Sibe Owners on here will tell you that Pack order alters now and then too. Chin Up & I hope it all works out OK for you all Best Regards, Kevin & Pack :bullseye: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted April 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Thanks Kevin, will have a look on amazon for that book. Added to rep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeiperSky7 Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Amy, Save your pennies ! If we see you at Thruxton I'll bring the book with us and you can have it,it is the least we can do to help All the Best, Kevin & Pack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie62 Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Kevin well put, i told her not to panic just yet and i will look out for that book .......thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted April 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Amy, Save your pennies ! If we see you at Thruxton I'll bring the book with us and you can have it,it is the least we can do to help All the Best, Kevin & Pack Thanks Kevin I would greatly appreciate that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 awww poor guys! I agree with what's been said, pack dominance shifts from time to time. Good luck with it, hopefully it will be few and far between and you will know how to handle the situation when you read through the book xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie62 Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 found this amy , worth a look Tips Training New Puppy ALLEGRO SIBERIAN HUSKIES Suggested Alpha Help Roles THE HEAD OF THE FAMILY Print This Page Some things you could do to get your Siberian Husky to see you as the Alpha. 1. Go through doors and passage ways before your dog. Rite of passage is important to dogs, and the alpha has the right first. 2. Eat first--then feed your dog. 3. If your dog is blocking your path, make him move out of your way--do not go around or step over him. Sub-ordinate animals move for the alpha. 4. Call your dog to you for petting and attention. Don't go to him. Use Call Name only when good. When bad just say" Bad Dog Bad Puppy" And reward him. Motivation and Reward.We all need a good reason to do things well. Praise Praise and LOVE 5. When coming home,if your dog does not come to greet you, ignore him. If you go running to your dog then, you are treating him as the ALPHA. 6.When you play with your dog, be sure that you end up with possession of the toy, and then put it up. 7. Don't allow your dog to sleep on the bed with you. At best you are making him equal with you. (Of course, we all let up on this one after our alphaness is firmly established.) 8. Practice trust/dominance exercises. Gently put your dog down on his side or back and touch his ears, paws, etc. and give him a massage to make it all pleasant for him. Offer treats if he doesn't want his paws touched while you are touching his paws. (This helps later when you have to trim the toe nails.) 9. Be your dogs leader. Prove to him that he can trust you in all situations, and that you will provide for his every need. Be consistent in enforcing all rules of the house. Establish regular routines that he can depend on. 10. Practice "doggy" discipline, that is when your dog engages in undesirable behavior, discipline him in a way that he understands. Give him a scruff shake and a grunt or growl. You must catch him in the act for discipline to be effective, however, or he won't understand for what he is being corrected. With huskies it is best to make direct EYE contact. Huskies like wolves talk with their eyes And Talk to your Husky. 11. Practice taking objects from him, toys, food, etc. Start by trading the object for a yummy treat. Then give back the object back to him. Get him used to your hands around his food bowl. Start by adding yummy treats while he is eating. Work up to removing his food bowl while eating to add the treats, then replacing the bowl for him to resume eating. You can eventually work up to actually slipping your hand in to remove food while he is eating. 12. Chewing - Puppies cannot help chewing, they teeth just like all babies. This can be most annoying and become a habit that is hard to break. When puppy is small and starts to nip and bit ( take his open mouth and hold it gently shut with your hand , like an alligator mouth, and say NO in a firm regular voice. Every time puppy does this. Then from the beginning puppy will know, OPEN MOUTH BITING AND CHEWING IS NO. It also helps to get baby teething rings and old socks etc, put them in the freezer, when frozen give them to puppy to chew to sooth the gums. 13.It helps to keep huskies on a Harness plus collar for Tags and identification. Animals attack at the throat and jugular vein. So to tug or try to train a husky by yanking on his neck,sends an ALARM signal of DANGER to him. Thus he balks. By keeping a standard harness from pet shop, it hooks to his back and feels comfortable and he is much easier to control and teach. But Try leash training first. 14: Most important when beginning training. Teach the puppy his NAME: use the CALL name FIRST. Example Sunny : Come! -Sunny: Sit! =treat Never use the command first and the call name after the command. Eg: Come here Sunny. -Sit Sunny. We all pay attention when we hear our name called but not necessarily when people are just talking. So put emphases the puppy name you have chosen. Now you have the beginning foundation for your training and the walls that will hold your training together. 15: Do not expect too much from your puppy.Remember we all learn at our own pace and in a step by step lesson. Just like teaching your child or a friend. Slow and patience. There are many more things that you can do, but these are good starting points for becoming your dog's friend. Remember that security and trust are important to a dog, and a good training provides security and can always be trusted. Remember another point The Key to success is love and commitment. World renowned ethologist and writer, Dr. Erich Klinghammer, Ph.D., director of Wolf Park, Indiana and President of North American Wildlife Federation, opines that: "... the so-called alpha roll, over practiced by some, is nonsense. The context in which people do it with dogs does not coincide with the situation in which a wolf actively submits to a high-ranking wolf. We certainly do not use it with our hand-raised wolves. There is no way we can administer the intensity of a dominance attack on a wolf that they use with each other on very rare occasions. Establishing dominance is usually a drawn out series of encounters that eventually convinces a wolf to submit and run way a preferred strategy. If I were to go up to a hand-raised wolf that did not know me and attempt to dominate it physically, it would either run away or I would have one helluva fight on my hands - if the wolf could not get away. There is really a big difference between wolves and dogs. To simply extrapolate from wolves to dogs is at best problematical." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Sorry to hear you are having trouble Amy First off... how old is Marley? and what are the age differences between him and the other two dogs? Remember that even if you get him desexed, hormones/testosterone can remain in his body for at least three months. So I would be looking at how you manage them as a pack as opposed to Marley on his own. Do you have an order that you feed/pat them in? Do you pander to a specific pack order? It is hard to comment on the situation via the net and IMO you will certainly benefit from a *qualified and experienced* behaviourist observing the pack dynamics. It can be a complicated issue but it can also be one that can be resolved or managed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 "... the so-called alpha roll, over practiced by some, is nonsense. The context in which people do it with dogs does not coincide with the situation in which a wolf actively submits to a high-ranking wolf. We certainly do not use it with our hand-raised wolves. There is no way we can administer the intensity of a dominance attack on a wolf that they use with each other on very rare occasions. Establishing dominance is usually a drawn out series of encounters that eventually convinces a wolf to submit and run way a preferred strategy. If I were to go up to a hand-raised wolf that did not know me and attempt to dominate it physically, it would either run away or I would have one helluva fight on my hands - if the wolf could not get away. There is really a big difference between wolves and dogs. To simply extrapolate from wolves to dogs is at best problematical." Jackie, I don't agree with all the points raised in the article you posted (mainly because it it refers to your relationship with one one dog, not a pack situation, per se) but I definitely agree with the above excerpt! Being the alpha is not about physically dominating your dog! It is about how you live with and manage your dog on a day to day basis. As I mentioned in the other thread, physically dominating your dog is not only dangerous but it is not an effective method to use to gain respect from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted April 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Sorry to hear you are having trouble Amy First off... how old is Marley? and what are the age differences between him and the other two dogs? Marley is 10 months. He is Bandits brother so they are same age and Gizmo is 14 months nearly 15 months. Remember that even if you get him desexed, hormones/testosterone can remain in his body for at least three months. So I would be looking at how you manage them as a pack as opposed to Marley on his own. I will be getting the neutured all at the same time. I know the testosterone level can remain in the body but Im hoping it may at least calm him down, but if it doesnt I shall be going down the same path as I did with Gizmo -behaviourist and maybe get them to work with all 3, like you suggest so we work as a pack not just on an individual. Do you have an order that you feed/pat them in? Do you pander to a specific pack order? It is hard to comment on the situation via the net and IMO you will certainly benefit from a *qualified and experienced* behaviourist observing the pack dynamics. It can be a complicated issue but it can also be one that can be resolved or managed. Yes, Gizmo always gets fed, walked and petted first, then Marley and then Bandit. But if Marley is becoming alpha, do you think I should start putting Marley first, if he "suceeds to become alpha" or should I stay to the same routine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 IMO - and this is just my opinion - I don't pander to any pack order. The dog who gets the first treat/attention/dinner etc is the one who complies with my command first. In example, if I am giving them a treat, the first dog to sit is the dog who gets the treat first. I am the alpha, so it is about the dogs complying with ME, I make no move to try and understand their social order which, IMO, can be quite fluid and complicated. What I care about is how they respond to me as the alpha. When I give them any resource that they value, it is based on their focus and response to me, not what I perceive is their pack status. They are all at a similar age which in all honesty can create problems as they mature and decide to push the boundaries. As their hormones run wilder you can see them become more dominant with each other and fight over pack order. I have four years age difference between my three dogs (10, 6 and 2) and I've never had a problem - I attribute this largely to the fact that the age difference means they are all at a more developed and 'mature' age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 IMO - and this is just my opinion - I don't pander to any pack order. The dog who gets the first treat/attention/dinner etc is the one who complies with my command first. In example, if I am giving them a treat, the first dog to sit is the dog who gets the treat first. I am the alpha, so it is about the dogs complying with ME, I make no move to try and understand their social order which, IMO, can be quite fluid and complicated. What I care about is how they respond to me as the alpha. When I give them any resource that they value, it is based on their focus and response to me, not what I perceive is their pack status. They are all at a similar age which in all honesty can create problems as they mature and decide to push the boundaries. As their hormones run wilder you can see them become more dominant with each other and fight over pack order. I have four years age difference between my three dogs (10, 6 and 2) and I've never had a problem - I attribute this largely to the fact that the age difference means they are all at a more developed and 'mature' age. thanks Bec, your opinion is always appreciated as is everyone elses last night, i was dreading going home to more fights and frightend huskies but i arrived back and they were fine all night! No fights, no scared/cornered sibes, just happy playful sibes ready for walkies! Marley has definately taken leadership over Gizmo and Bandit now but they were all laid out last night afte walks perfectly fine, we went shopping and came back and they were all still sleeping! Now just gotta fine a reliable vets - easier said than done at the moment! We have kept Marley and Bandits crates separated now so then we know there will be no fights when we are out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 good idea to keep them separated for the moment, glad there were no more incidents while you were out x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 we are thinking of keeping them separated from now on, just in case it starts again and next time it may be worse or happen while we are out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Good luck with it all Amy. If you see them fighting step in and break it up - let them know that it's not on, and you will not accept such behaviour - but remember that you can be assertive without being aggressive. Yelling/screaming (not sure if you do it but I thought i would mentioned it) can make the fighting worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Good luck with it all Amy. If you see them fighting step in and break it up - let them know that it's not on, and you will not accept such behaviour - but remember that you can be assertive without being aggressive. Yelling/screaming (not sure if you do it but I thought i would mentioned it) can make the fighting worse. luckily all we need to do is stand right up over then and they stop immediately. If they continue then we grab their scruff and stand over them and they will lay down and stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 luckily all we need to do is stand right up over then and they stop immediately. If they continue then we grab their scruff and stand over them and they will lay down and stop. That they stop immediately is a good sign that the respect the presence of the alpha, SW. You must have great body language when you are standing over them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 That they stop immediately is a good sign that the respect the presence of the alpha, SW. You must have great body language when you are standing over them thanks, made me blush lol the only member of the household who can't make them stop is jamies dad, paul but he has the automatic response of shouting at them which I tell him again and again not to do and guess what, he shouts they get worse! Trying to put the message accross to him, but he is stubborn!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeiperSky7 Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Amy, Sounds like you are making progress When Sky first joined us she had the odd moment of trying to assert herself over Peiper and me,particularly around feeding time.After following the the "Gesture Eating" at meal times and making sure I went first through the door etc she got the message,if there is even a hint now of a row I stand alongside & over her and she backs down. During the most serious row the girls have ever had ( over a bone) I jumped between them to break it up - great advice from Smeagle,shouting will just make the situation worse. Fingers Crossed the Boys are sorted out now Kind Regards, Kevin & Pack :bullseye: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted April 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 thanks kevin, i hope so too. my 3 will fight over bones sometimes but if we stand up high over they will stop straight away, which is nice as I hate having to try and grab their scruff when teeth are goin in all directions, its scary but gotta be done sometimes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 Oh no lol, poor bandit and gizmo, marley must be stopped:spiderman: I think gizmo should remain to be alpha, he is what is called the fair alpha, marely has had to listen to gizmo, since he's got balls he's got a power trip and some dogs are not good alpha's their firm but NOT fair! Here's what my trainer said, alaska was firm, e.g alaska would growl at him nera her food, and when he took play too far, but other than that she was a good example for him to be around the house and left him alone. Balto always wants to play and doesn't know normal doggy limitations. Heres what you do: feed gizmo first, and make the others sit and watch (cruel i know lol) then when gizmo is done take him somehwere else and feed bandit and make marely sit and watch and then feed marely last, practice taking his food away and giving it to bandit. Always give gizmo treats first and then badnit in that order, make them all sit before they come hin the house, and gizmo should enter first. Even let gizmo and bandit on the sofa and not marley << being on the sofa is a privelidge and he should not be there if he is being domminant ... it only empowers him. marely should not attack them, growl at them and he should suurender his toys to them, if he attacks or growls pin him to the floor like cesar does and leave him there until he is calm. Is bandit done? get marely done! give them all love but you said in one of my other post that marely can get away with a lot and can be careless and clumsy when play-fighting with the others >> and that he can be a bit clumsy, he knows what he's doing, if you notice him sitting on the othesr during play or getting a bit too nippy..correct him! and make sure the calmest and fairest dog is the alpha....good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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