Removed #1 Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 Fox hasn't given me problems on walks before...but since the incident with that stuuupid woman and her large dog attacking him he's been off the map. It's like he's taken all of his walk ettiquite for the last several months...decided that it doesn't work based upon the one incident and has said...'forget this, I quit.' As of this moment we're not taking walks to the parks or the cornfield or anywhere he enjoys anymore. I thought at first I was being reactionary...and someone please tell me if I am being that way and how to fix it. He's been pulling SO hard that I'm afraid he's going to hurt himself...he's made himself vomit on walks twice now. No longer afraid of the toilet paper still hanging in the trees...not really interested in it at all. If he's not doing his business he wants to be running. If I'm not willing to do what he wants, then I spend his entire walk time in the small 75-100 meters in front of our house changing direction as soon as he starts pulling. I've put sit, and down in there to just to try to break him out of this almost paniced sort of I MUST run everywhere that's crawled up his rump. I've tried switching to his head collar and while he doesn't vomit...he does smack his head down so violently on the pavement trying to get it off that I worry he'll hurt himself with it. He's still good with his indoor manners, and he's a perfect darling at meal time (he knows his bowl doesn't get put down until he's laying down. He can get up after that but he doesn't get what he wants until he does what I want). All of his other behavior/appetite, etc is completely normal...just this new one that's making me gah Suggestions, comments, momentary...you crack head you're doing it all wrongs, are all appreciated at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snssewell Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 Oh noooo that must be so frustrating!!!! I really don't know what to tell you. Maybe try to only walk when he is not pulling and stop each time he starts pulling and just stand there till he calms down again. I know it can be hard to do the change of direction thing when they pull constantly and you are probably just walking in zig zag circles. But I am sure someone here will have a better answer. But it sounds to me you are back to square one with the leash training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #1 Posted October 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 Yeah it's literally like being back at square one...except fox is bigger by far than he was at square one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroush Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 You can take two directions on this: Start using a shock or pinch collar Or start from square one all over again. Carry a treat in your hand (A high reward treat like dehydrated beef or hotdog, jerky etc.) and tell him to "Heel". As he follows you well, praise and treat him. Gradually increase the distance you go between treating. This helps with Clicker training as well, click and treat at the same time. As you progress, only click and do not treat sometimes until you can phase out treating completely. If he starts to go backwards on his training, you'll have to start back again until he's consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princessmom Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 I don't bother with the reversing-directions-thing. When Milla pulls, I stop, until she either comes back to me or lies down and waits for me to catch up. We've been practicing leash walking on the way to the dog park since she's always in a mad rush to get in. On the way out, I have to drag her, because stopping or reversing directions is what she wants me to do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arooroomom Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Have you tried letting fox get the zoomies out before doing a walk? Sometimes mine get so wound up I need to leave them outside for a bit before we try it. A pinch might help, but I believe Fox is too young to wear one... how old is he? Instead of letting him just walk normally you might want to teach him "heel" as that's a more concrete action compared to walking loosely. There are clearly defined things he must do while heeling, loose leash walking on the other hand is a bit more "vague" if you understand what i'm saying. You could try a flexi lead and use it for the first 10 minutes and then lock it at normal leash length after he's gotten the crazies out. Or reward good loose leash walking with unlocking the Flexi lead and allowing him free range, and then putting it back to normal length and repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroush Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Have you tried letting fox get the zoomies out before doing a walk? Sometimes mine get so wound up I need to leave them outside for a bit before we try it. Definitely this! Sometimes you have to let them run around and play before you take them on their walk or they'll just be uncontrollable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutsibe Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 A properly fitted pinch collar is a wonderful thing. It doesn't harm them, and doesn't really hurt (try one on your arm), either, it's just uncomfortable when it pinches. I find it does wonders for the respect issue - my boys, in particular, are too willing, at times, to see what they can get away with (kind of like the kids I teach at school - more respectful with the male teachers, sometimes!). I use it in combination with the change of directions. Make it a game - as you work on "watch me!"! Make him think you're trying to "sneak away" from him, and he has to watch you so that you can't. It leads pretty naturally into heeling, then. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magical Merlin Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Personnaly I dont like the use of punative training methods and TBH if you are going to use an electrick shock collar for anything other than a life or death situation you really need to rethink why you have a dog IMO. I would say that the use of anything that causes pain on a dog should not be used, however i know that some people still feel it is acceptable in which case it should be a last resort rather than a first. Anyway I would use the stop start method. Dog pulls you stop, lead relaxes you move, dog pulls you stop, lead relaxes you move etc. You dont need to use your voice for this. Just ignore him until the lead relaxes then start walking. Of course if your stood there and he continues to pull wihtout letting the lead slacken then you will need to call him back to you. Decide on a length of lead, hold it firmly with two hands and off you go. Like others have said I would give him a run first, either in the garden or go out for a jog with him. If you think he may still be picking up signals from you then i would try sunglasses (so he cant see your eyes which reduces the amount of facial expression you can give) and eat mints before and during the walk. They mask the smell of pherimones on your breath so if you are concerned he wont smell it. Sometimes with dogs you need to go back a step in order to go forwards again. Its just the way it is. I've had to go all the way back to the begining with merlins counter conditioning to dogs after hes been attacked and while it is a pain in the arse its just one of those things. Have you thought about useing a DAP collar? Its pheramones pleaseing to dogs that can help them settle in stressful situations. If hes anxous out of the house it may help. I would also look at doing some clicker training when you are out to make the world a better place again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kells xx Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 i agree with heather darwin was horrible to walk when we first got him but we used a halti and some outside lead training. Making him heel and walk nicely and if he pulled then stop. he know walks loose lead with us and is a pleasure to walk..... eps as i walk 3 at a time all of mine have been taught to walk loose lead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahNukka&Shadow Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Heres a totally different and radical opinion for you.... let him pull!? I have a walking belt and bungee leads connected to harnesses for my two so I dont have to hold on to them they just pull me along at a comfortable rate of knots! LOL Personally I figure their huskies, born to pull so why fight that!? I have also done small amounts of obeience heelworl training with them walking on normal flat collars so I know they can if the situation really needs it but other than that I just let them go for it.. and you know what? They actually dont pull that much! They pull really hard for the first few hundred metres coz their soooo excited to be out and about but after that they settle into a comfortable walking pace and are very well behaved! I also teach them the mushing comands while Im at it so they know gee and haw, steady and hike and most importantly whoooa for stoping to cross the road etc! If you really HAVE to have him walking to heel then I'd recomend the treat in hand keeping his attention on you method (thats what Iv done in obedience training, worked very well) but if not just get him a harness and give him a go at pulling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #1 Posted October 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Fox is five months old, and while I have nothing personally against a prong collar, he still has a great bit of growing to do and I worry that he may be too young. As mentioned we have a head collar, but he's fighting it soo hard at this point ((picture a bucking bronco whose solution to getting their harness off is to jump into the air and then land head first on the concrete) that I worry if I continue with it I'll be doing more harm than good. I can't see me using a shock collar, not because I think they're inhumane (I know people who have had amazing results with using one as a training method...not on Sibe's though), but because I'm not confident enough in my training abilities to not unwittingly do something to cause aggression problems, or just confuse him further. Sarah, my hunny completely agrees with you and we went rounds about whether or not to let him pull because of his age. He's too young to actually pull...but I'm not sure that making himself vomit from sheer force is much better for him. The stop start thing I'll give a go, and the treating for good behavior, and the running before the actual just walk. I'll look into getting a belt harness for him and reread these suggestions and pull a bit more from them after I've had a chance to wake up. Thank you guys sooo much. I really appreciate all the good advice, suggestions, and support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #2 Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Hi Stephanie, I see you are in the USA...and Wisconsin! Where? I'm in the twin cities just over the river. Regarding pulling....Andy did not have a clue how to walk on a leash when we first adopted him. He was criss crossing like crazy to get to every bush:lol: I would have none of that and we started using just a regular choke chain. A few good snaps and he would slow down and back up and be right by my side. You don't want the dog to pull while having a choke on, because then they do struggle to breathe, and in general, everyone is unhappy. It takes time, especially if the dog has been traumatized. I am still working with Jackson, as it's only been a couple of days since he joined our pack and never had any real training and lived his first few years on a tie out, pulling constantly. He's better. One thing I've found to be effective before we even get out of the door (due to his extreme excitement) is to firmly grab both sides of his neck (not pinching or anything) and set him down with a firm no, or whatever command. It's the element of surprise. It does not hurt him. Please, I know I'm new here, and I'm a dog MUSH....I don't like to use anything that is painful for training for my dogs. So, imagine how a bitch corrects her puppies. She grabs them around the neck. It's about dominance for sure, and a dog that takes you for a walk, is saying he is the leader of the pack. I am not promoting pain training. Here's another option I am considering if our regular walk/leash practice doesn't work...The Dog Whisperer Illusion Collar Who could believe these two would be anything other than loving and obedient![ATTACH]6346.IPB[/ATTACH] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyra Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Lyra's around the same age as Fox, and she doesn't walk perfectly on the leash either. We use a combination of methods - we taught her to heel with the treat method, because she reacted poorly to the start/stop and turn in the other direction methods. We have a particular leash we use on walks when we want her to heel - a standard 6 foot, that we loop around our backs and over our shoulders, as this keeps walks relatively hands-free and if she does try to pull it's not very effective. We recently started taking her on the trails, now that she's all vaccinated, and for this we let her loose on the Flexi. Sometimes she gets soooo excited that she even tries to pull on that, even when she's 16 feet in front of us. If we can't get her to calm down by telling her heel, I let her get to the end of the leash and yank her back. It's usually quite forceful, and she gets the idea pretty quick. I should mention that we walk her with a harness because I was worried about her neck when she first started pulling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 I wouldn't use a prong collar on a pup myself. I wouldn't use a head collar on him either - it is obviously causing him a lot of discomfort, when he is hurting himself so badly trying to get it off you have to ask yourself why you are using it. Try getting a well fitted martingale collar or one of those front attaching harnesses. I do wonder though if after the other dog had a go at him, he's become stressed about being outside? at this age he is in his first fear period and it's likely he will be scared of things he wasn't before (like the toilet paper). He could also be picking up on your unease. And I'd also guess that if he has started pulling a lot now, he never really understood that pulling gets him no where. Dogs only pull on the leash because they learn that's how to get where they want to go. What is he like if you try to walk in on leash in the backyard or somewhere you know he is really comfortable? If you find yourself getting frustrated, keep leash training sessions to 5-10 minutes max. Don't over do it or you will get frustrated more quickly. As for the comment about just letting him pull - that's really up to you. At five months, he is only going to get bigger and stronger and the habit of pulling on the leash will become more ingrained. Some people don't mind that their dogs pull on the leash, personally I would be miserable if my dogs were pulling me all over the place and it would make me less inclined to walk them. I am also yet to meet a chronic leash puller where leash pulling is the only problem in the dog and owners relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 it sounds like it could be fear - he got attacked so from now on when he goes out he wants to get home as quickly as possible poor boy what i do with blaze is when he pulls me forward i pull him back he is learning slowly if he pulls he doesnt get anywhere if he walks next to me he does - fox will probably be quicker than blaze is to train doing this because hes young and blaze doesnt like treats so i cant treat him for being good lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroush Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 You shouldn't use a prong collar until the very LEAST eight months old. One year preferably. Have you tried using a gentle leader harness? I've gotten one for Loki as he's terribly excitable and uncontrolable when we're around people or dogs and it stopped his pulling immediately. (These are halters with clips in the front.) When he pulls, you give a quick tug and stop walking, the tug will pull on the loop and change his direction. It gives similar results as the halti but most dogs are much more accepting of the body harness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snssewell Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 You shouldn't use a prong collar until the very LEAST eight months old. One year preferably. Have you tried using a gentle leader harness? I've gotten one for Loki as he's terribly excitable and uncontrolable when we're around people or dogs and it stopped his pulling immediately. (These are halters with clips in the front.) When he pulls, you give a quick tug and stop walking, the tug will pull on the loop and change his direction. It gives similar results as the halti but most dogs are much more accepting of the body harness. I got one for Zihna and I could not get it to work. She would scream and walk crazy and still pull. We made it 4 houses down and I picked her up and carried her home! LOL! We worked on it with my trainer and it actually works well AFTER we have gotten outside and she has calm down a bit. So at this point we start out with a regular collar then walk and stop a bit then put the gentle leader harness on and walk some more. I do have to admit that I think she likes the gentle leader harness better than the collar or the regular harness just because of the way it fits on her and does not choke her at any time even when she starts to pull from time to time. So IMO its great, but still requires some training if you have a puller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahNukka&Shadow Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 He's too young to actually pull...but I'm not sure that making himself vomit from sheer force is much better for him. Hes only too young to run and pull anything like a bike/scooter/sledge/etc in harness.. just pulling while walking shouldnt hurt him any as far as Im awear anyways! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 how is he before you take him out - as in when you get his lead ready and put his collar / harness on? Is he bouncing around and desperate to get out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #1 Posted October 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 Bec- I do think this has a lot to do with him being stressed about being outside, we aren’t using a head collar anymore with him…I’m at this point in time too concerned with him getting hurt. His new harness should be here tomorrow so maybe that will help some. I don’t know. Before the incident when he’d start pulling all I had to say was “easyâ€Â…and he’d slow down and there wasn’t any pulling. With areas that he’s familiar with…like our backyard/front yard area…he’s a dream…total and complete doll…he does pull when there’s a squirrel…but I blame my neighbors who insist on having twelve squirrel feeders in their yard for the little rodents presence. Kroush-I ordered a gentle leader with overnight rush delivery…hopefully it should be here tomorrow Sarah-There are very structured rules in our house for if you want to go outside. Before Fox gets to go for a walk he has to calmly sit by the door. For a short period of time he was jumping, whining, yipping whenever he wanted to go outside…and we established a standard in the house…if you want to go outside, you can’t act like a tard…silly way of phrasing it I know…but the bottom line is before we go outside he is either sitting in front of or laying down next to the door waiting for my hunny or I to come and take him outside. After he’s mastered that portion he has a tendency to get excited…so we open the door but not the screen/glass door and he has to sit down calmly before he’s allowed outside…then we go outside and he has to be calm before we leave the front lawn…I do take him running, and I do take him for one block bicycle rides on occasion to help him get his energy out…these are smalll city blocks that take approximately four minutes to ride around…and after that he gets a regular walk. These are not in place of his regular walks, but are in addition to them. Other Sarah…yes I know he’s too young to pull or do any serious running…but at this point it can’t be good for him to be pulling so hard he throws up. New harness should be here tomorrow…we’ll see how it goes and I’ll post an update for all. Thank you again everyone...I am reading all of this and taking it in even if I didn't reference your comment specifically. I only want what's best for our boy and the pulling until you vomit has me seriously concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroush Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 Another thing you might want to look into is getting him a puppy backpack. Put small things in it like your keys and phone. This will make him feel like he has a job to do, wear him out faster and you'd be surprised at just how much more it makes them behave! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snssewell Posted October 15, 2010 Report Share Posted October 15, 2010 Oh great!!! Definitely let us know how the new harness is working for you. Keep his regular collar on him just in case it takes a while for him to get used to the harness, that way you can switch if you really need to. I think I mentioned earlier that Zihna did not like it at all at first and I had to carry her back home because the way she was moving around I was scared that she may slip out of it somehow, that's how bad it was. LOL. But it is getting better every day, so even if it may not work right away just keep practicing. GOOD LUCK! Hope you guys get it all worked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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