Food aggression help

[Sarah]

Ok, the last few days for some reason i've notice mini fights breaking out between my two boys when they have a bone. This has just happened again as i've given them a knuckle bone each in the back garden despite having the roar of F1 cars on at the moment as i'm watching the race, I heard them snarling and growling so i went outside and said ENOUGH and they stopped and looked at me and then left each other alone.

Is there anyway I can stop them doing this or is it "healthy" in a way for them to have a mini bit of competition?

When i feed them their meals ie kibble or chicken wings etc they keep to their own and there's never a problem.

[Bec]

When i feed them their meals ie kibble or chicken wings etc they keep to their own and there's never a problem.

Could that be because they eat their meals faster and chewing on a bone takes a longer time?

Is there one that instigates a fight over another? i.e. does one dog go up to the other to try and steal his bone?

It's not behaviour I tolerate, because food is a resource that I control. Having said that, if the dogs were eating bones I would be inclined to keep them separated so they don't feel they have something they need to guard from the other dog in the first place - I do it mainly with mine because I have three dogs of all different ages and sizes and my little oldie particularly takes a lot longer to eat than the other two. However, this is especially useful if you have one dog that is the 'instigator' that regularly tries to steal food from the other, just as a safety precaution if you aren't there to supervise or break up any fights that might occur.

[Sarah]

Could that be because they eat their meals faster and chewing on a bone takes a longer time?

Is there one that instigates a fight over another? i.e. does one dog go up to the other to try and steal his bone?

It's not behaviour I tolerate, because food is a resource that I control. Having said that, if the dogs were eating bones I would be inclined to keep them separated so they don't feel they have something they need to guard from the other dog in the first place - I do it mainly with mine because I have three dogs of all different ages and sizes and my little oldie particularly takes a lot longer to eat than the other two. However, this is especially useful if you have one dog that is the 'instigator' that regularly tries to steal food from the other, just as a safety precaution if you aren't there to supervise or break up any fights that might occur.

It seems to be predominantly Kaiser that's the trouble causer at the moment - little bugger Lol

I'm the same, I don't tolerate them fighting over food as i don't want it to progress to other things.... they both seem to want the same bone

[Ice and Cripton]

Well if you think about it Kimba was with you guys first, he's been with you for months and has been an only dog, then comes along baby Kaiser, they get on and as you say if anything kaiser was the more domminant one. However that might not have been the case, older dogs are more mature and it may have been Kaiser was being a little tike and Kimba might of allowed it because he's even tempered. How old is Kaiser now? Im sure he's getting to a more teenage phase >>> Kaiser may be challenging Kimba more and Kimba may be starting to hold his ground.

It is normal tho >> domminance is established at 8 months, so my two started up again around 7 months until 8:rolleyes: Alaska has always been domminant but now it's hard to tell because like you say they kinda keep to their own, but if it came down to it Alaska would insist on her way.

At the beggining there was growling, snarling over food, toys, attention >> Balto only growled once over his pigs ear and Alaska actually went for him and he had to go to the vets >> this was our fault as we were not watching them 100% >>> I was told litter-mates can sometimes not get on >> even now they bicker like siblings do, but i know they lurrv each other lol:rolleyes:

What you did was perfect, you heard the growling and you stopped it asap. Our trainer told us to however leave them until an alpha is formed between them or there will never be peace >>>> you may be experiencing this now >> it can be a tedious time, it took my two 3 weeks, lest hope your boys figure it out quicker. Once they do they'll be best of buds again, for some reason dogs just need a leader in order to fuction, they know your the leader of the pack but they must gets their posotions too.

So it might be worth leaving them to it, see who 'wins' each battle until a domminant leader is formed and then you must make sure after this is establsihed the domminant one doesn't take the piss >>> remind him your still the boss!

[Ice and Cripton]

It seems to be predominantly Kaiser that's the trouble causer at the moment - little bugger Lol

I'm the same, I don't tolerate them fighting over food as i don't want it to progress to other things.... they both seem to want the same bone

hmmm i would let Kimba tell Kaiser off >> he needs to defend himself and Kaiser needs to know just because your out of the room he cant take the mickey out of Kimba. Watch them but let Kimba say; "Hey this is my food, back off!" Dont let it escalate but do let Kimba show some authority. Alaska is the alpha of the 2 but like i said it doesn't mean it can go to her head. They eat kibble out of the same bowl and they eat a heap of raw food in the garden >> no fights at all!

[Sarah]

Kaiser's just turned 6 months now and yes, he's definitely trying to establish his position, lately, he's been pushing his luck with me as well but has always been put in his place, not waiting for his food is one example, i put his bowl down and say WAIT and they are SUPPOSED to sit and wait until I say OK...he's at the moment taken to stealing a mouthful when he thinks i'm not looking...little shit lol so i remove his food, get him to sit and wait and then put it back on the floor again - making him wait until he's not fidgeting THEN he gets his food Lol

[Bec]

It seems to be predominantly Kaiser that's the trouble causer at the moment - little bugger Lol

I'm the same, I don't tolerate them fighting over food as i don't want it to progress to other things.... they both seem to want the same bone

Don't worry - having two dogs competing for the one resource is a common problem

What is your feeding routine? What do you do if you give them a bone to chew on? For the moment I would be feeding them separately so that Kimba can eat in peace without having Kaiser annoy him. You want to minimise Kaiser's opportunity to steal food or attempt to because each time he does it he is learning it is a way to win, and the fighting may escalate.

Daisy used to be a real pain in the arse when Cherry was eating. Cherry is a ten year old chihuahua mix so she's small and getting a bit older so she doesn't eat with the same speed Daisy and Micha do. Daisy weighs 12kg more than Cherry, and she's incredibly food driven, so physically she could easily push Cherry out of the way and steal her food. However - Daisy knew that was a big no, so instead, she would lie on the ground *near* Cherry and cry and bark and then run over to her food bowl once she had moved away.

When Cherry was eating I would stand near Daisy and work on getting her to focus on me and not Cherry. I started doing some basic training with Daisy when Cherry was eating (i.e. putting her in sit/stay and getting her to look at me, doing some heel work etc) to teach her that hey, I'm way more fun than Cherry and paying attention to me instead and obeying my commands will mean you get a definite food reward whereas waiting for a scrap of Cherry's food offers no guaranteed reward. If she went to annoy Cherry I would give her a 'ah' or 'no'. Pretty soon, Daisy lost interest in hassling Cherry at food time and although I rarely ever train with her at that time now, on the odd occasion she goes over to Cherry when she's eating I can easily call her away. She no longer sees Cherry's food as anything worth begging for because she doesn't see it as attainable.

It's the same when I give the dogs treats, the first one to obey my command is the first one to get a treat, so they know the guaranteed way to get a reward is to obey me not to compete with the other dogs for their food.

[Sarah]

hmmm i would let Kimba tell Kaiser off >> he needs to defend himself and Kaiser needs to know just because your out of the room he cant take the mickey out of Kimba. Watch them but let Kimba say; "Hey this is my food, back off!" Dont let it escalate but do let Kimba show some authority. Alaska is the alpha of the 2 but like i said it doesn't mean it can go to her head. They eat kibble out of the same bowl and they eat a heap of raw food in the garden >> no fights at all!

Oh yeah Kimba gives him a piece of his mind lol I've just caught him towering over his bone in the back garden with kaiser sat looking at it, kimba then laid down with it between his paws and sat there - then Kaiser gingerly walked over to sniff and Kimba growled at him - kaiser then backed off and went and sat down to crunch on his own bone, so maybe he does know who's boss (when he feels like it lol)

[Ice and Cripton]

Kaiser's just turned 6 months now and yes, he's definitely trying to establish his position, lately, he's been pushing his luck with me as well but has always been put in his place, not waiting for his food is one example, i put his bowl down and say WAIT and they are SUPPOSED to sit and wait until I say OK...he's at the moment taken to stealing a mouthful when he thinks i'm not looking...little shit lol so i remove his food, get him to sit and wait and then put it back on the floor again - making him wait until he's not fidgeting THEN he gets his food Lol

Haha little bugger is pushing the boundaries and 6 months sound about right. I saw that video when you got majourmum2 cookies >> Kimba was a star and baby Kaiser was figiting like a nutter lool. I would suggest letting Kimba be his example, make him sit wait and then say 'OK' to Kimba whilst holding on to Kaiser, make Kaiser wait for a few seconds then say 'OK' to him too. Do this with treats an raw food too. It's not being mean it's showing him your brother is being better behaved so he will eat first ( the alpha also eats 1st so this may help). We did this with Balto with off-lead treatment >> He would be on-leash while Alaska was off, 'cos Baltz would go temporarily go deff when off-leash. So he saw his sis going off and getting rewarded, now Balto is getting the message he's much better of lead. Kaiser wont take it personally (dont worry) but he will learn " Oh theres Kimba getting food, maybe i should mimic his behavour" <<< trust me lol...works a treat.

Anything else he does that challenges Kimba?

[Sarah]

Don't worry - having two dogs competing for the one resource is a common problem

What is your feeding routine? What do you do if you give them a bone to chew on?

They have a meal in a morning after their walk and then their other meal at night. Both have their own bowls and have the same food, Kaiser always finishes his first though but leaves Kimba's food alone.

I've given them the bones outside as they tend to drag and drop them around the house. They get one about twice a week and it's only the last few times that i've noticed a change in the way they act with each other. They've swapped bones in the past a few times but it seems that if Kaiser gets bored and wants Kimbas - if Kimba isn't ready to swap he growls at kaiser - now normally this has resulted in him backing away and settling with his again but this time he leaned to take it anyway and got a bit more of a telling off from Kimba.

Before I give them the bone or food or in fact any treat, i make them lie down, then sit, then give me their paw and finally i'm working a touch targeting which is going great. When they've done these then they get their reward

[Ice and Cripton]

Oh yeah Kimba gives him a piece of his mind lol I've just caught him towering over his bone in the back garden with kaiser sat looking at it, kimba then laid down with it between his paws and sat there - then Kaiser gingerly walked over to sniff and Kimba growled at him - kaiser then backed off and went and sat down to crunch on his own bone, so maybe he does know who's boss (when he feels like it lol)

This is healthy >> Kimba should stand up for himself lol

[Bec]

Kaiser's just turned 6 months now and yes, he's definitely trying to establish his position, lately, he's been pushing his luck with me as well but has always been put in his place, not waiting for his food is one example, i put his bowl down and say WAIT and they are SUPPOSED to sit and wait until I say OK...he's at the moment taken to stealing a mouthful when he thinks i'm not looking...little shit lol so i remove his food, get him to sit and wait and then put it back on the floor again - making him wait until he's not fidgeting THEN he gets his food Lol

If he's sneaking food and breaking the stay it's showing he doesn't fully respect your command. Try this instead - put him on the leash and tie it to something so he can't go anywhere. Go and put the food in his bowl and come back, put it close enough to him that he's interested but far enough away that he can't get to it if he walked to the end of the leash. Tell him to sit and stand next to him, the instant he looks at you, unleash the lead and say 'ok' or whatever release command you use.

The tie out stops him from breaking the stay and eating the food without your permission to do so, and also makes him think he can't physically get the food until you say so. If he tries to break the stay he can't physically get the food, because the leash is stopping him, not you so he won't see breaking the stay as challenging YOU - just something that is impossible for him to do. At the moment he sees you telling him to stay as a command that is not enforceable and something he can break if he wants to. Putting him on the leash will mean that he can't get the food even if he tries to so he will eventually see the stay as something impossible to break even when you remove the leash.

You can read the proper extended version of the above here, I just thought I would give you the gist of it above as the article requires a few read throughs to really 'get' the idea;

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101

[Sarah]

Thanks for the help Ice and smeagle added to rep

Anything else he does that challenges Kimba?

Not really, he follows Kimba everywhere Lol always thought Kimba would have issues with Kaiser but seems to be the other way around lol

[Sarah]

If he's sneaking food and breaking the stay it's showing he doesn't fully respect your command. Try this instead - put him on the leash and tie it to something so he can't go anywhere. Go and put the food in his bowl and come back, put it close enough to him that he's interested but far enough away that he can't get to it if he walked to the end of the leash. Tell him to sit and stand next to him, the instant he looks at you, unleash the lead and say 'ok' or whatever release command you use.

The tie out stops him from breaking the stay and eating the food without your permission to do so, and also makes him think he can't physically get the food until you say so. If he tries to break the stay he can't physically get the food, because the leash is stopping him, not you so he won't see breaking the stay as challenging YOU - just something that is impossible for him to do. At the moment he sees you telling him to stay as a command that is not enforceable and something he can break if he wants to. Putting him on the leash will mean that he can't get the food even if he tries to so he will eventually see the stay as something impossible to break even when you remove the leash.

You can read the proper extended version of the above here, I just thought I would give you the gist of it above as the article requires a few read throughs to really 'get' the idea;

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101

Thanks Smeagle, will try this tonight when i feed them and see how i get on....might try and film it as well

[Bec]

Definitely try and film it!

Have a read of the article as it explains it much better than I do, and in more detail too. I use it on both Micha and Daisy and have for years - it's simple but very effective You need to read the article and follow it step for step (including using the marker word 'yes' and the release word) for it to work with the desired out come.

You eventually do take the leash away completely and you can introduce other commands - but you want to get the basics solid first, which are - the dog looks to you for permission to eat and sees breaking the stay as impossible to do.

[Dunc]

Bring um to mum and dad they show um who's boss lol

[siberian_wolf]

some brilliant replies here

I have the same problem with my 3 and bones. I will be honest, I used to panic and try and separate them which did nothing but create more fighting!!!! Now if any fights break out (apart from play fights of course) I will put myself between them and they usually (or have done so far) back off each other and then all is calm again. Most of the time I will look out for any signs of a possible fight starting (i.e. one of them approaching the other in a sturdy, stiff manner or one of them snarling at the other, etc etc) and I will get up and go stand over the bone as if to say, "Im in charge of this bone" with a kind of "Cesar Millan" pose so chest out, stand tall and confident to them and they usually look up at me and back off. Sometimes all I have to do is just stand up and tehy will stop but I have found it does depend on what the fight is all about! If it does get very bad then I will separate them completely and not let them look at each other so they become comepletely separated from each other!

[Bec]

Just to clarify - when I mentioned separating the dogs in my first post I meant feeding them separately from the moment the bone is given not waiting until they've had a fight and then separating them. I feed all my dogs separately for daily meals but that's more to do with the fact I use feeding time as an opportunity to do one on one training than for any other reason.

[Ice and Cripton]

excellent advice bec >>> added to rep!

[jules dief taz tor]

if the boys have bones i feed them in the crates, all other food times they r fed together it has yet to become a problem , when we give them chicken wings they go to oposite ends of the kitchen then come back for the next one