magical Merlin Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 hey, hope this might be of use to some other owners. So, I hear alot of people saying you should never let your dog growl/snarl/put its hackels up at you, another person or another animal because it is showing "dominance" or bad behaviour... This is a load of rubbish. It is SO SO important to let your dog express itself and understand what it is trying to say. The result of not allowing dogs to show these behaviours means you have a dog that lashes out because it is given no other option. What they mean: Growling - A growl generally means I do not like what you are doing. It can be caused by a number of things and is even seen in dog play, however it tends means the same thing. Hackles up - this is a sign of arrousal/intrest. It is not an aggressive behaviour when seen on its own just a dog communicating that it sees/hears something and it is aware of it. snarling - This is a full sign that a dog is saying Go away from me. Some dogs such as grey hounds smile and show thier teeth, however it is not the same as a full snarl where the lips are cured up. Why they are important and should not be stopped: If you dont allow your dog to show these early warning signs then you are setting yourself up for troubble. A dog shows these behaviours because it is communicating that there is a problem. Dogs that are unable to show these behaviours become emotinally damaged. They are unable to express themselves and are more likley to lash out and bite someone or another animal than they would be if they could show they were unhappy. So what should I do if my dog is doing this towards me? Well, it depends on the situation. The best advice I can offer is to teach your dog commands so that you can remove it from the situation that is causing it to growl or snarl. Leave and drop are very important commands. A dog is most likley to show you the above behaviour when it has something it thinks is high value. If you can get your dog to leave something or drop it you shouldn't have to come in contact with your dog while it is warning you there is a problem. Go away or come here are also very good commands to teach as you can tell your dog to go away from the thing it has or come to you and drop what it has. There is no need to pin or attempt to dominate your dog in this situation. Dogs are not trying to take over the world! They do not see you as a threat to their dominace, they do not love you they only do things because it bennafits them. Following your commands and doing what pleases you benafits a dog by getting rewards. A dog has no intrest in trying to dominate a human, they are not in compation with you, do not breed with you and do not hunt with you. Humans and dogs are on different levels. If you pin your dog in these situations then you only teach a dog that it should fear rather than respect you because you scare it. And it will just hide its normal behaviours when you are around causing it to be stressed and unbalanced. What about if its to other dogs? Never correct your dog for warning other dogs that it is not happy. Even in your house. Dogs need to communicate with eachother and by stepping in and telling your dog it cant behave like that you are only teaching it not to behave like that when your around. The pressure between the dogs will the build up over time and eventually bubble over into a biting/fighting situation. Monitor the situation when you see it and work out what the problem is...protection of food/toys/other high valute items. It may just be the dog is in a bad mood and doesnt want the other dog in its space. Now, there are of course dogs who are a little screwed up. They growl for what seems like no reason. There is always a reason it just may not be possible for us to work out what the problem is. I feel it is very important for people to learn to speak dog. Dogs can not understand people. They can read a few body language movements but it is far better if you learn how they work so that you can have a harmonious life with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valkyries Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 nice one i dont tell my dogs off for these things, i only tell them to stop or remove them if it goes to far and a full snarl is present xxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Added to rep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey.Zarly Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 Thanks for posting!! Zarly stands her heckles up and makes a lot of noise when my mum's pup (bull terrier) jumped on her, he soon hops off! She doesn't like being jumped on sometimes! Although in saying that she is not aggressive in any way, She was just warning him, Which i will not tell her off for, She's not once been aggressive towards other dogs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousMoves Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 A+ post!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyn Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 You get good at spotting the body language when you own a pack. A 'back off' warning is curling back lips to show the teeth AND showing the tongue through them. It may or may not be accompanied by a growl. High tails are a sign of confidence and while a tail wag is generally a positive sign, a slow tail wag may mean trouble brewing. Hackles up happens a lot when ours play, anything from a small neck Mohican to every hair from top of head to tip of tail on end. It's rarely a sign of aggression amongst our own pack, but we do take note if a strange dog is involved. Stooping, bum-tucking, low rapid tail wag, back roll and mouth licking say 'I'm not a threat and want to be your friend' Ever wonder why non-sibes often respond agressively to your dog? Compared to other breeds, Sibes make a LOT of direct eye contact and will stare. This breed 'language' is understood by their 'own', but sometimes percieved as a threat by other breeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magical Merlin Posted April 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 Too right lyn. Most other dogs take a dislike to Merlin and he does play differently to the other dogs here -all hackles up. Rottis make ALOT of noise when they play so people tend to think they are being aggressive. Three rotties playing together makes an almighty sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyn Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 I missed one very important but very subtle posture that's not been mentioned: If you see one dog rest their head on the neck or back of another, act QUICK! That's a threat on the part of the dog doing the head-rest, often done silently and an indication of iminant attack. The exception would be a male doing this to a bitch in heat, then it may be his way of checking if she's receptive and preceeds a mount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacca_&_me Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 I have a funny warning that I thought I would mention as good humor. Have you ever seen a husky in a cat-like pouncing posture?? This is the most hilarious thing I have ever seen! Now just imagine ginormous chewy doing this, then bouncing up in the air, and then clumsily but playfully bounding up to Tank and sort of headbutting him! Hahahahaha! You should hear the rukus these two boys make when they play, you'd think they were going to eat each other and then you see them with their tongues hanging out panting and slobbering everywhere....its so funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahNukka&Shadow Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 Heather, good and intersting post and Im glad your posting up stuff like this as alot of people dont know this stuff and its very important.. I loved your post on bite inhibition as most people sooo dont know that stuff! I would just like to get you op on a situation and what I should have done: Nukka had been given 3 chicken wings for her tea and had eaten two but unknown to me had "burried" one at the back of her crate.. I went to the crate to remove the bowl and she growled as nasty as she had ever growled at me (shes normally the sweetest natured dog in the world so this shocked me) I quickly realised she was guarding a wing, but I didnt want her being aggressive and possesive with me about her food so I did pin her and take it away.... now this was probably totally wrong but I didnt know what else to do and I wanted to convey to her that it was totally unacceptable to growl at me... So what should I have done in that situation and any ideas on any training I can do with her to relax her a little with her food? Iv tried the slipping extras into her bowl while shes eating so that stopped her really scoffing it if anyone went near the bowl... Your surgestions above of a "come", "drop" or a "leave" commands are good however I have trouble getting her to "Come" at the best of times let alone if she has food.. she will "give" me a toy she has usually and I am working on "leave" doing the treat on her paw thing with some success but I really dont think she would leave a whole chicken wing! She street scavenges terribley and I'm trying to work on her with this but its really difficult as she just goes deaf once outside the house! It makes me mad as people in my area leave out TONS of bread "For the birds" but always on the floor so the birds wont come to get it and if I dont notice till its too late she'll eat the lot! Any help greatly appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magical Merlin Posted April 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 hey sarah, That is a tricky one as most dogs will naturally guard their food. If the leave/drop it commands are not working for you then sometimes restraing the dog to get the item is the only option left. Personnaly I would have left her with the wing as it was just food. If it was something dangerous to her then it is important to get the item away from her however you can. If you want to stop food possessiveness then i would start feeding her by hand, sitting with her while she eats and working on getting her to do something in order to get the food eg sit/down Its very natural for dogs to be possessive of food, but as Nukka was protecting food and you didnt know itwas there its a bit of a problem. Could you look at keeping the crate closed when shes eating so she cant hide the food/feeding her outside? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furbabys Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 this is so true dogs have to show there feelings in some way ..us humans show our feelings by talking or shouting and crying dogs cant do this xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahNukka&Shadow Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 hey sarah, That is a tricky one as most dogs will naturally guard their food. If the leave/drop it commands are not working for you then sometimes restraing the dog to get the item is the only option left. Personnaly I would have left her with the wing as it was just food. If it was something dangerous to her then it is important to get the item away from her however you can. If you want to stop food possessiveness then i would start feeding her by hand, sitting with her while she eats and working on getting her to do something in order to get the food eg sit/down Its very natural for dogs to be possessive of food, but as Nukka was protecting food and you didnt know itwas there its a bit of a problem. Could you look at keeping the crate closed when shes eating so she cant hide the food/feeding her outside? Well I thought taking the wing away might let her know that its not good to growl at me like a punishment. Feeding by hand isnt really an option as shes fed raw so its usually minced meat, I already do get her to sit or more acuratly lay down in her crate giving me full eye contact before she is allowed to take her food so she KNOWS I am the food giver, I guess she just thinks "hey you gave it me you cant now take it back!" I often do shut her in the crate while she has wings as she has a tendancy to bring them out an try to hind them around the house if I dont! She will still try to hide it at the back and then whine like shes finnished, cheeky moo... feeding outside I do sometimes if its a really messy item Im giving but I dont really like doing this as its difficult to keep an eye on her to make sure shes not really burrying it etc! Its a really tricky one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyn Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 this is so true dogs have to show there feelings in some way ..us humans show our feelings by talking or shouting and crying dogs cant do this xx Oh I don't know Ours are quite good at getting their point across by doing those three! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val (Zebedee) Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 Heather, Lyn, great posts here, it is important people understand what their dog means by various noises or postures, rep added to both of you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 Nukka had been given 3 chicken wings for her tea and had eaten two but unknown to me had "burried" one at the back of her crate.. I went to the crate to remove the bowl and she growled as nasty as she had ever growled at me (shes normally the sweetest natured dog in the world so this shocked me) I quickly realised she was guarding a wing, but I didnt want her being aggressive and possesive with me about her food so I did pin her and take it away.... now this was probably totally wrong but I didnt know what else to do and I wanted to convey to her that it was totally unacceptable to growl at me... So what should I have done in that situation and any ideas on any training I can do with her to relax her a little with her food? Iv tried the slipping extras into her bowl while shes eating so that stopped her really scoffing it if anyone went near the bowl... Your surgestions above of a "come", "drop" or a "leave" commands are good however I have trouble getting her to "Come" at the best of times let alone if she has food.. she will "give" me a toy she has usually and I am working on "leave" doing the treat on her paw thing with some success but I really dont think she would leave a whole chicken wing! She street scavenges terribley and I'm trying to work on her with this but its really difficult as she just goes deaf once outside the house! It makes me mad as people in my area leave out TONS of bread "For the birds" but always on the floor so the birds wont come to get You're right that pinning her wasn't a good move, for your safety more than anything, and also because you've just reinforced to her that you will take away her most precious resource by force and therefore telling her she is justified in guarding her food. I use this training program with my dogs for food time, not only do they look to me for permission to eat, but I can get them working away from their food bowl (i.e. I can give them other commands and get them to recall past their food bowls, I can turn in the opposite direction and have them heeling away from the food etc). I always leave my dogs to eat in peace when I've given them the ok to eat their dinner yet I can take food off them with no problems. http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101 You also want to work on a give command to teach her that relinquishing things to you is rewarding. You can start by giving her something really low value and then giving her something really high value in exchange. You can also put something low value like kibble in her food bowl, give her the ok to eat it, and then walk by and drop something really high value like a piece of chicken in her food bowl so she learns that you walking past her food bowl is actually rewarding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterling Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 Great post, but I can't say that I agree with the hackles up definition. I think Lyn described it best when she mentioned, "take note when another dog is around." For my dog it means he's unsure, uneasy and somethings about to go down. It's definitely a warning sign for me to pay attention to what's going on with him and the dog(s) he's around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 I don't think hackles up on their own indicate aggression, like the OP said it is a sign of arousal, dogs can do it when they are excited, when they've had a fright, and yes when they are about to aggress etc etc - that doesn't mean it's a good thing or something you shouldn't take note of, but that it does not always indicate the dog is going to be aggressive. I also want to add that I take these warning signs very seriously when I see my dogs doing them. Snarling, growling, hackles up etc would be a red flag to me that my dog is not comfortable, is about to aggress etc. Would I let my dog walk up to another dog with his hackles up, posturing and growling? HELL NO - I would be in there IMMEDIATELY calling my dog back to me or intervening otherwise I would have a fight on my hands. It's important for us to be able to read warning behaviour so that we can know when a situation is getting out of hand. I think there is a big difference between a dog displaying unwanted dominant or aggressive behaviour and a dog displaying fair warning behaviour to another dog. For example, my beagle cannot stand other dogs humping her and I am happy for her to warn a dog that attempts to mount her to back off. My Siberian can be dog aggressive and if he meets or walks past another dog he finds intimidating he will lunge, put his hackles up, growl etc and if he had the chance he would grab the other dog by the scruff of the neck and pin it to the ground. This is not desirable behaviour and completely unwarranted and in his case, I've done a lot of work to teach him that he has other options than immediate aggressive behaviour when he encounters a dog that he feels threatened by. There is also no way on earth that I would consider my dogs showing warning signs towards me acceptable or normal. If my dogs snap, growl, raise their hackles, threaten or warn me I would consider it symptomatic of a bigger problem in our relationship and something that needs to be addressed ASAP. That doesn't mean that I would correct them or pin them to the ground or something for displaying this behaviour but that I would have to immediately consider why they are displaying it so I could put a stop to it. So whilst we don't necessarily want to correct our dogs for displaying warning behaviour, because they can then learn to skip giving warning signals and go straight to aggression, that does not mean the behaviour is desirable or acceptable or something that should be ignored or not addressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magical Merlin Posted April 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 Bec has a good point, the idea of my post was to show what the signs are and what they mean. While you shouldnt correct your dog for doing it you should take action to remove your dog from the situation that is causing it, or work on training so that you can control your dog in that situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenRC51 Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 What is Heckles up? Is that when the fur raises up down the middle of the back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahNukka&Shadow Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 You're right that pinning her wasn't a good move, for your safety more than anything, and also because you've just reinforced to her that you will take away her most precious resource by force and therefore telling her she is justified in guarding her food. I use this training program with my dogs for food time, not only do they look to me for permission to eat, but I can get them working away from their food bowl (i.e. I can give them other commands and get them to recall past their food bowls, I can turn in the opposite direction and have them heeling away from the food etc). I always leave my dogs to eat in peace when I've given them the ok to eat their dinner yet I can take food off them with no problems. http://www.dolforums...showtopic=64101 You also want to work on a give command to teach her that relinquishing things to you is rewarding. You can start by giving her something really low value and then giving her something really high value in exchange. You can also put something low value like kibble in her food bowl, give her the ok to eat it, and then walk by and drop something really high value like a piece of chicken in her food bowl so she learns that you walking past her food bowl is actually rewarding. Beck, just had a read through the training program you posted and although I dont do the Tie out part as its not practle to feed her outside all the time in British weather, I do however do almost exactly what the program says I have her lay down in her crate and give me full eye contact before she is released to eat and I do this at every meal. The chicken wing insident was an unusual occurance which was why it stuck out to me and worried me slightly... I definatly need to work to get a good drop and leave comands going so any advice you can give to achieve those would be much appreciated as although she will relinquish a toy usually quiet well, and even leave sometime dropped in the house when told she is VERY bad for street hoovering and will not leave when told out on walks. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 When you get her to look at you, do you give her a command to do this or is it instant when you walk in the room/put her food down? How long does she maintain eye contact for? Where do you put her food when she's in the crate in a stay waiting for the ok? I would definitely work on a good solid give command and for walks you also might like to train a solid look command too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val (Zebedee) Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 What is Heckles up? Is that when the fur raises up down the middle of the back? yes, Ken, the hackles are between the shoulder blades from the neck down, that area Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magical Merlin Posted April 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 KenRC51, on 25 April 2010 - 08:30 AM, said: What is Heckles up? Is that when the fur raises up down the middle of the back? yes, Ken, the hackles are between the shoulder blades from the neck down, that area The main areas are the shoulders/neck, a dog that is showing full hackles up will raise the hair from the base of the tail up to the forehead. Rosie does a great one all of the tail up to her nose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valkyries Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 my boys raise their Heckles alot when playing but only on the shoulder part, if all the way up i know to attract their attention xxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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