aksnowpeach Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 So since we've had Cypra we have been training her to be "allowed" to go up on the furnature. Well today it totally backfired. Kai was up on the couch with me and Cypra came over and wanted up to, so I figured why not. I let her up on the couch and she INSTANTLY went after Kai to get him off the couch. (this is MY couch, GET OFF). So he jumped off after a small tiff between them but I yelled at her to get off too. She did. I figured ok, no big deal, right? Just like normal, she gets off when we tell her too. Well I took Kai outside and when I came back inside, Cypra was on the couch, so I told her to get off. What was different about this time is that she refused to get off. I told her a few times to get off in a very loud voice, but she still didn't listen to me! So I grabbed her by the collar to pull her off and she turned around and bit my arm (not hard, but just a "warning" bite) I got really upset at her and tried again to pull her off and she bared her teeth and actually growled in my face. I even tried to use a treat to get her off but it didn't work! I am lucky I had the leash near by so I put the leash on her and pulled her off while saying NO. I have a feeling I was in the wrong doing that, but I didn't want her to be having that growly attitude with me and I was also afraid of eithe rmyself or Kai getting bit. I think my husband and I allowing her on the furnature when we are home is becoming a problem and now I need to know how to fix it. I don't want her to think she can do it whenever she wants. especially when we leave the house (she is out of the kennel) and she decides to go on the furnature because she wants to. Please don't judge me for what I did, I really didn't know what to do so I just thought safety first. Right now Cypra is in the kennel and Kai is laying by me. I am afraid to let her out because of her going to the couch again or even attacking Kai or myself. I haven't been able to help it, I am so upset I just keep crying. Just when things are going great with one dog, the other one goes downhill!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibe77 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Grey is like that, and its all our own fault for letting him do it in the first place, he growls when i push him of the bed but my advice is not to show your intimidated by it! he still growls at me when i do it but he would never bite me, he gets a firm grab around the mouth and a stern no when he does growl, after he has legged it first, think he does it then realises what he has done and to whom and runs away..lol Just start from now keeping them both of the furniture, and do not be intimidated by them if they sence you are acting weak they will use it to there advantage! be strong and if they do Growl raise your voice with a firm NO!! and be confident to grab around the mouth and hold it shut while doing it, it will take time but they will get use to it and learn, Grey is getting there the growling has kinda stopped but he is still persistant and getting on the furniture........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibe77 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 grey showed his teeth to me once and has never done it again, some people might not agree with my approach but when he done it, i showed no fear shouted a firm NO smacked hi across the nose (not really hard) but hard enough for him to know he done wrong and then grabbed his mouth and once again another loud no, and all the You Naughty Boy stuff..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksnowpeach Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 I like your method, that's how I usually treat the dogs when they do something wrong! Someone told me once "treat your dogs like children, when they do something wrong, get down on their level, grab them (in this case by the dogs nose) and tell them NO! and put them in "time out". Usually the dogs go to the corner and lay on their blankets until I say for them to get off. It really didn't make much sence to why Cypra decided to try and be alpha bitch today! Thanks for the advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 grey showed his teeth to me once and has never done it again, some people might not agree with my approach but when he done it, i showed no fear shouted a firm NO smacked hi across the nose (not really hard) but hard enough for him to know he done wrong and then grabbed his mouth and once again another loud no, and all the You Naughty Boy stuff..... This may work on some dogs, until the day you try it on a dog who decides to take you up on the challenge. Daisy went through a stage where she would growl when I moved her off the lounge. I was instructed to confront her by grabbing her and scruffing her while growling NO - and instead of backing down she took me up the challenge and bit me. Physical confrontation is very risky because you never know how the dog will react - you set yourself up to be bitten, or worse if the dog can physically over power you. At the end of the day the pack leader never needs to physically assert themselves because the relationship they have with the other pack members is built on respect. You rarely ever see an alpha dog needing to do anything more than a stare or slight lip curl in order to get pack members to back down or behave themselves. They gain leadership through respect not dominance or physical confrontation. I like your method, that's how I usually treat the dogs when they do something wrong! Someone told me once "treat your dogs like children, when they do something wrong, get down on their level, grab them (in this case by the dogs nose) and tell them NO! and put them in "time out". Usually the dogs go to the corner and lay on their blankets until I say for them to get off. It really didn't make much sence to why Cypra decided to try and be alpha bitch today! Thanks for the advice! Cypra saw your grabbing her as a challenge and she decided to take you up on it. Dogs aren't kids and while sometimes we can draw parallels, the way they learn and understand is still very different and ultimately they should not be compared to children. I would stop letting them on the lounge at all for now - my dogs can come up when I want them up but the most important thing is that they will get off when I tell them off. They'll automatically move for me when I go to sit down because they respect my space. Do you crate train them or do they have their own beds inside? A useful technique is teaching them an 'on your bed' or 'in your crate command' and rewarding them with treats and lots of praise for getting on their bed/in their crates. Work on this a lot so that when they get on the lounge you can command them to 'on your bed' - they'll know that they will be rewarded for getting off the lounge and onto their own bed. I found this really useful for teaching Daisy to get off the lounge when she started growling and carrying on because it wasn't confrontational and it taught her that obeying my command is rewarding. Now down the track I can have her back on the lounge and she will let me pick her up and move her around, she moves out of the way for me, she gets off when I tell her to and I haven't rewarded her for doing so in a long time. If you find them constantly trying to get on the lounge, wordlessly take them and put them outside. Teach them that if they try to get on the lounge they won't just go back to where they started (the floor) but they'll lose what they had before (because they'll end up outside). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ade hill Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 my dogs dont go on the furniture, unless i tell them too. its all part of the dominance of being a pack leader, it sounds silly, but to a dog being sat at the same height as you on a sofa/chair etc=equal standing within the pack and leads to a lack of discipline sometimes, hence the issues you are having now. if one of my dogs jumps onto the sofa without permission, i take them down straight away, whether anyone is sat on it or not, its my sofa..they use it when i say so. my advice would be to regain control of the situation by not allowing any dog on the furniture anymore, it will be hard, we all love husky cuddles, but they will soon realise that they have to ask your permission to sit with you, rather than claim the furniture as thier own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksnowpeach Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Do you crate train them or do they have their own beds inside? If you find them constantly trying to get on the lounge, wordlessly take them and put them outside. Teach them that if they try to get on the lounge they won't just go back to where they started (the floor) but they'll lose what they had before (because they'll end up outside). They are both crate trained already, but since we got Cypra we haven't put her in the crate because she does so well in the house. They each have their own blanket though that they sleep on, and for the most part when I point and say "go to blanket" they usually do (I'm gonna say 4 out of 5 times LOL). Sometimes it takes a little extra on my part to get them there. It was just for some reason Cypra wanted to take over alpha today. I think my husband and I have been spoiling her too much that she forgot we are her pack leaders and she thought she was equal. Actually, the alpha order goes ME, then my husband, then them (haha). I am always home with the dogs so I take that position. I wish I had the opportunity to take them and put them outside! I live on military housing with a very sad excuse for a backyard, and it's on a hill so I can't put a stake out there to tie them too. Plus, i have no trees to tie them out to either! Usually when they do something bad, they go to their "time out" corner on their blankets. I never punnish them in their crates. Especially Kai, he was abused and always forced to go in his crate. The only reason i put Cypra in the crate today was to seperate Kai, myself, and her, and prevent any other problems. Right now, Cypra is laying at my feet and she keeps looking at me with her big blue eyes and I swear she is saying "i'm sorry mommy". No more babying her! Today is day 1 of stricter training. I plan on using the "nothing in life is free" method like I do with Kai. If she wants something, she must earn it. And no more furniture luxuries for quite some time. She lost that privledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 They are both crate trained already, but since we got Cypra we haven't put her in the crate because she does so well in the house. They each have their own blanket though that they sleep on, and for the most part when I point and say "go to blanket" they usually do (I'm gonna say 4 out of 5 times LOL). Sometimes it takes a little extra on my part to get them there. It was just for some reason Cypra wanted to take over alpha today. I think my husband and I have been spoiling her too much that she forgot we are her pack leaders and she thought she was equal. Actually, the alpha order goes ME, then my husband, then them (haha). I am always home with the dogs so I take that position. I don't think she was trying to take over alpha from you per se, but just trying it on to see how far she could get away with her behaviour. If you can't put them outside, put them in another room to isolate them from you so they learn that if they keep trying it on their privilege of getting to hang out with you will be revoked. Work harder on the 'on your blanket' command or wherever you want them to sit instead of the lounge; use treats to reinforce their behaviour when they obey you. If they get on the lounge tell them 'on your blanket' and reward them when they get off. If they keep trying to get on the lounge take them off and put them somewhere isolated for a few minutes. I wish I had the opportunity to take them and put them outside! I live on military housing with a very sad excuse for a backyard, and it's on a hill so I can't put a stake out there to tie them too. Plus, i have no trees to tie them out to either! Usually when they do something bad, they go to their "time out" corner on their blankets. I never punnish them in their crates. Especially Kai, he was abused and always forced to go in his crate. The only reason i put Cypra in the crate today was to seperate Kai, myself, and her, and prevent any other problems. I never use crates as punishments either, but giving my beagle a 'in your crate' command really works well because you're sending them somewhere they want to be and enjoy being - an alternative for the lounge. Time out is really no use if they are in the same area as you, as hanging out with you is what is rewarding. I would also be inclined not to use something like their blanket, where they might sit all the time, as a time out or punishment. The point of putting them outside or in another room is just to align with their thinking. If you have a dog who sleeps on the floor but decides to try getting on the lounge, and you just tell them off and they go back to sitting on the floor all they will learn is that if they try it on they won't lose anything - they'll just go back to what they had before. Putting them outside or isolating them teaches them that if they try it on they won't just be told to get off but they'll lose what they had before they even tried getting on the lounge - if that makes sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninooks mum Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 have the same trouble with nooks but I think you should have just carried on taking her off by her collar she wouldnt have bitten you I dont think nooks just nips Me when I do it but she has never bitten I think once you stopped taking her off by her collar you gave her a little sign that maybe you were scared of her pity they cant both get on sitting on the same sofa hope you sort them out husky hugs from nooks x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valkyries Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Odin as always been allowed on the couch but when i got the other 2 it was hard with lots of fighting, so i desided no more all i did was just keep taking them off the couch some times i may have done it 10 + times but 3 days later none go on the couch they come in and just lay on the floor now. you have just got to stick with it, dont let them on for a cuddle nothing keep them off, it dont take them long to learn. Also now i dont allow them in the living room when i'm not home good luck xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksnowpeach Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Thanks for all the great advice! Since this happened, Cypra has been acting "sorry" all day. She follows me around with her head hanging, and she is following EVERY command I give her. Even funnier, she went to Kai to "apologize" to him by licking him on the muzzle. That's a good thing right? They use to be able to share the couch, but I am thinking that maybe we have been giving her TOO much couch time instead of her brother or both at the same time, so she thinks its HERS. I do plan on following through with all the advice I've been given, as well as telling my husband NO MORE. But now when we want to cuddle with them...how can we go about doing that? Just pet them while they are on the floor? Poor puppies. I will have to figure something out soon, when myhusband was training in Bulgaria for a month, I kept Cypra on the bed with me all the time (but I didn't have Kai yet) and he is getting ready to deploy to Afghanistan, so I know I will want them around me all the time for a good cuddle or cry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demiurge Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 I do everything I can to treat mine perfectly equal. If I pet one, I pet the other. If I let one on the couch, they both get to come up. If I let one on the bed, I call the other to join us. If one gets a treat, they both get a treat. I do everything I possible can to let them know I'm not playing favourites. If he nips at her, he gets timeout, just like she does. I noticed very early on that they would get very jealous and nip at each other if they thought one was favoured. As such, I keep everything equal. However... I have started to deal with them one at a time. Instead of petting both, I'll pet him, and then her. Or I'll have him sit for a treat, while she just watches. They are slowly learning that now may not be their time, but that their time is coming and they have to be patient and wait. An old saying here comes to mind: It's a process, not an event. I don't think there will be any one defining act or moment that will suddenly make my 2 behave the way I want them to behave. They will get there, but only with time, training, and biggest of all, consistency from me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ade hill Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 the MOST important thing to remember with this kind of stuff, is that you are in charge, no one is saying they cant go on furniture, or even your bed, they just have to realise it belongs to you, so you say when, and how you give affection. if i want a cuddle..i call my dogs to me, when i dont, they get back down, its all about dominance, which doesnt always have to be about bad behaviour or aggression, just the dogs knowing you are in charge and what you say goes. its not easy if you have been letting them do as they please, but if you persist, it does make for an easier home life, and the dogs know thier place better and suffer less stressful situations in my opinion. it doesnt mean you dont love them, it just means they respect your space :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valkyries Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 coz i have 3 they would kill my couch in no time lol so now none get on it i go down to them when i want cuddles i sit on the floor with them, they know theor space now and they know mine. we all do diff things and it's what ever makes u comfy in your home as long as they know whos boss xxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley Osburn Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 this is a great read guys. thanks for asking this question aksnowpeach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majormom2u Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Since we got Nina and Shiloh a year later, there have been only one rule at home: I am the pack leader!... the alpha dog... the voice and the law! (believe me, with huskies you cannot have a democracy at home!...) They are terribly loved and cared for, even spoiled rotten... but my rules are not negotiable, and they know it!... I think my philosophy is what has made it possible for me to have them off leash (not recommened for huskies!) with 100% re-call. They trust me to protect them and to tell them what their place is, I believe dogs need to know their pack leader is accertive and CONSISTANT with his/her commands (the pack leader does not have to look like Hercules, or have the strength of Kingkong... it's all in the mind!). Having them on a continuous training has been a blessing in so many ways, specially when it comes to photographing them, they will stay in position and hold their mark until I tell them so... we go to the park and they bolt running, they play to theirs hearts' content, but the moment I raise my hand, they leave what they are doing and come to me... also, I don't shout... actually, I hardly talk out a command... they were taught to watch my hand for signals (which works great when in places full of distraction or very loud noises)... They are allowed on the couches (my furniture is WHITE!), on my bed, in the car... everywhere I go, but!... they must be invited, and as soon as I give the command, they are off and back to their spot!... At first, I thought it was cruel not to "babie" those little gorgeous puppies... but got a wonderful trainer who showed me the importance of early and continuous training... Nina and Shiloh are a delight to have around. have left chicken, steak, peanut butter and other yummy foods around on tables, even on the floor and they won't touch any of it... they would look at me almost as if pleading for a bite, but the food can stay there, I can leave the area and they won't touch it (I took photos of them surrounded by all the yummy treats and they were focus on me and the camera, not on the treats!... and that's a true test of will!...) I love when we have people visiting and I am able to have them lay down or leave the room without saying a word! (ok... sometimes is nice to show off how obidient they are!!!) I hope you can find the right method to improve your beautiful babies' behavior, but whatever method you choose, there are some things that are very important to remember: (1) BE CONSISTANT (2) BE ASSERTIVE (never, never, ever lose your cool...watch your voice tone and volume) (3) and remember that training NEVER ends!... it must be continuous because dogs live in the "now"... repetition is essencial for success.. and consistance is imperative for them to understand what you want... I hope this helped a little. Pawhugs, Sandy, Nina and Shiloh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibe77 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 This may work on some dogs, until the day you try it on a dog who decides to take you up on the challenge. Daisy went through a stage where she would growl when I moved her off the lounge. I was instructed to confront her by grabbing her and scruffing her while growling NO - and instead of backing down she took me up the challenge and bit me. Physical confrontation is very risky because you never know how the dog will react - you set yourself up to be bitten, or worse if the dog can physically over power you. At the end of the day the pack leader never needs to physically assert themselves because the relationship they have with the other pack members is built on respect. You rarely ever see an alpha dog needing to do anything more than a stare or slight lip curl in order to get pack members to back down or behave themselves. They gain leadership through respect not dominance or physical confrontation. . Each to there own, i have done it with all the dogs i have had and it has never failed me, anyway i thought when it come to physical confrontation most dog would high tale it out of there? thats what you said in the thread about Dogs as protectors so i should not need to worry... I dont hit grey on the nose all the time it was once and once only and that was all because he bared his teeth and as i said he has never done it again so my way works for me.... it the way i was taught by my parents and they have had dogs all there lives, they are both in there 70's and have never been bitten once, maybe we are just lucky........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 i had to tap kimba on his nose tonight he kept trying to counter surf at my mum and dads and wouldn't take NO for an answer lol - stubborn bugger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damrod Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/our_pets_for_life_program/dog_behavior_tip_sheets/Dominant-Dogs.html http://www.azhumane.org/PDFs/behavior/dogs/dominantbehvior.pdf http://www.professorshouse.com/pets/dogs/dominant-behavior-in-dogs.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Each to there own, i have done it with all the dogs i have had and it has never failed me, anyway i thought when it come to physical confrontation most dog would high tale it out of there? thats what you said in the thread about Dogs as protectors so i should not need to worry... I dont hit grey on the nose all the time it was once and once only and that was all because he bared his teeth and as i said he has never done it again so my way works for me.... it the way i was taught by my parents and they have had dogs all there lives, they are both in there 70's and have never been bitten once, maybe we are just lucky........ Some dogs when confronted will back down because they are scared, but if you are pinning a dog down or scruffing them you are removing their 'flight' ability so the only response they have left is fight. I would definitely put it down to luck. You just need to watch an episode of the Dog Whisperer to see the hundreds of times that Cesar has been bitten for doing the same thing (alpha rolling/pinning a dog down or aggressively confronting them). Aside from my own experience where I was bitten doing almost exactly what you outlined, I know many others who have been bitten trying to pin a dog down or scruffing them. When a dog growls at us because we try to move them off the lounge it's symptomatic that we are going wrong somewhere in our interactions with them. Hitting them isn't going to change that we are doing something wrong somewhere to have gotten the response we did in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tfickeisen Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 I've had problems of the same sort with my 3. We have a male that can be quite testy and stubborn. If he ever growls at me or shows any signs of taking charge with me, I use body language to let him know that I am in charge. A confident, but relaxed stare standing over him has always worked for me. Dogs sense fear better than any being, don't let the dog know you are worried about what he/she might do. Just some thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskieloverAD04 Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 My Natascha is the same way she is not allowed on our bed because she has a bladder problem since the vet fixs her and everytime she on the bed she pees and i tell her no to get off and one day she treat to bite me and i got the spay bottle and i say want a bath and she get off right alway lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibe77 Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 About 70 years of luck then bec for my family, shame i dont have the same luck with the lottery... Sorry i know im 32 but i believe in the old way is the best way, nowaday there is to much pussy footing around things in life... Do not watch people like Cesar as it dont intrest me as i think its all bollocks, like you said he has been bitten in what 10 years of doing his job, 70 years of old fasioned way no bites to 10 years of the pussy footing around way...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 About 70 years of luck then bec for my family, shame i dont have the same luck with the lottery... Sorry i know im 32 but i believe in the old way is the best way, nowaday there is to much pussy footing around things in life... Do not watch people like Cesar as it dont intrest me as i think its all bollocks, like you said he has been bitten in what 10 years of doing his job, 70 years of old fasioned way no bites to 10 years of the pussy footing around way...... If you are trying to suggest that I pussy foot around my dogs and let them get away with behaviour that is completely unacceptable, you'd be wrong I totally believe in punishment and corrections when they are used appropriately. I don't believe that there is ever an ok time to hit our dogs or that it's necessary to use fear tactics to train them. I don't believe in confronting an animal capable of doing you serious damage. That's not being new age; that's just using common sense. It's great that you've never been bitten using the methods you do but that doesn't change the fact that many people have been, and it's dangerous to suggest to someone over the internet to use a method that has a high chance they will get bitten. I don't see the need to use intimidation and dominance when we can train to establish bonds of respect and trust instead. We have the bigger brain and we are able to think past the immediate behaviour and instead train the dog to modify the attitude that produced the behaviour in the first place. A dog snapping at you when you try to move them off the lounge is a symptom of a bigger problem, and hitting them is not going to make that problem go away. A true alpha doesn't need to use force or intimidation with other pack members because they have respect and trust already. Tony - Cesar uses the exact same principles and methods that you suggested using in this thread. He is very much the "old fashioned" type of trainer you are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibe77 Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Lets just agree to Disagree, i have my methods you have yours.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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