Calia Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 I don't agree with any of his methods at all, especially when seeing that he had practically strangled a dog to the point that it's tongue turned chow chow blue and called it a submissive state. It's understandable to do what you can in self defense, but not in the name of training. Plus, in that episode at least, he wasn't reading the body language properly and didn't register that the other dog was challenging the dog he was working with. The only good episode I've seen with CM in it is the South Park one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Pack Leader:Well dont watch him much at all and i sure enough didnt see that one Calia. Smeagle there are several way to train and deal with aggression behavior as there are several different types of aggression. I suggest to anyone regardless if it's training or dealing with aggression. Seek advice, study, supervision, and accept a method that is best for you and your pet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Pack Leader:Well dont watch him much at all and i sure enough didnt see that one Calia. Smeagle there are several way to train and deal with aggression behavior as there are several different types of aggression. I suggest to anyone regardless if it's training or dealing with aggression. Seek advice, study, supervision, and accept a method that is best for you and your pet. Yep that's certainly true, but at the end of the day the vast majority of aggression is fear based. Only a very small percentage (around 10%) would be rank (or "dominance") aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Pack Leader: I would have to disagree with that percentage. I would also have to say it depends on the Pack Leader and/or breed. I would say that 70% aggression is fear caused. I am sure that we will both agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Pack Leader: I would have to disagree with that percentage. I would also have to say it depends on the Pack Leader and/or breed. I would say that 70% aggression is fear caused. I am sure that we will both agree to disagree. It would come down to our own experiences I guess. It's very uncommon to find a truly rank aggressive dog. The most severely dog and human aggressive dog I've ever seen was fear aggressive. Breed doesn't come into it as much as the individual dog IMO. Owners can definitely make an aggro dog worse by handling them inappropriately and if a dog is aggressive, it is always up to the owner to teach them they have other options apart from aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~*Shell*~ Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Why does this thread keep getting bumped? The last post was two days ago Anyway - Lana, in some instances I agree with you. There aren't many of Cesar's methods I would use on dogs even those who are aggressive. I own a dog who can be dog aggressive, and like the vast majority of DA dogs he is fear aggressive. Pinning him to the ground and flooding him won't work when it comes to handling his fear aggression. I agree - I believe flooding a dog only works when they're in the right mind state and a fearful dog rarely is. Zero has only just got to the point where flooding him is the best thing I can do because he's no longer fearful of other dogs and he's no longer the pack leader in his eyes so not rank aggressive. I've recently started an obedience instructors course so I can teach at our local club and i'm surprised how many people have been told to put the dog on it's side or back when it's performing a behaviour you don't like. Anytime you alpha roll a dog, it's done quickly and usually when they're in a fearful or excited state - it could make the dog fearful of you, cause them to bite you or increase the aggression towards whatever it was that you were trying to stop it aggressing towards (like happened with a rottweiler puppy we had a few weeks ago)! Besides, when Cesar does it, it's done quickly and quietly - how many of us could put our huskies on their sides without difficulty? In the grand scheme of things, they're not that big or strong - I know there's no way I could alpha roll a bull mastiff! I like Cesar's ideas on leadership (exercise, discipline, affection) and I would love to have his ability to read dogs like he does but his methods wouldn't work for me - I'm not physically strong enough, and my timing isn't good enough for those techniques to be effective. There's a reason there's a disclaimer on the front of his show - using his methods without knowing what you're doing can be dangerous to you and the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Owners can definitely make an aggro dog worse by handling them inappropriately and if a dog is aggressive, it is always up to the owner to teach them they have other options apart from aggression. Pack Leader: I agree with you there. We don't get a lot of members with aggression problems but when we do we always have a work cut out for us. Most times we have to work more with the Pack Leaders than the dog themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KERNOWHUSKIES Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 Before i got the pup my two were very dog aggressive (not so much anymore) The thing is when you see another dog you instinctively thinf OMG wot if they bite so you get them back (off retractable) and say GENTLY OR BE NICE. I'm sooo confused on how you r supposed to act. Ceasar says its all from the owner... but what am i suppose to do, let them go up to the dog and growl, nudge etc. I certainly don't think my dogs r aggresive, they r sooo laid back. When u have more than 1 (had Scoob for 4 yrs on her own with no dog troubles) they seem to stick up 4 each other, act the big I AM! Being honest now.... whatever you do, however you train ur Husky, someone will always disagree with the way u do it. At the mo i've got Nanook asleep pushing soo hard against my leg, Puppy asleep on his bed content and Scoob behind the sofa! Huskies r the happiest when they r with the pack leader. In my opinion thats all u need to know, if u r doin somethin wrong u will no about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted October 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 problem I have with my two is that they (ok, KAISER) doesn't act aggressive until he is 2 foot away from another dog - even then it's a rare occurrence i must admit on the rare occasion it happens i pull him back with a NO at the same time and sit him to face me and i don't release him until he's stopped bouncing. I then ask the owner if they've not run off lol.....if he can approach again, if he acts the same - I go through the same process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KERNOWHUSKIES Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 I do the same but they all say thats a no no. I do wot u do but its still wrong. As long as u have lovely, gentle, loving beautiful Husky thats all thats matters x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 voted. I agree with some methods but not all of them for the reason i posted in the other thread, I believe he can be forceful to the dog in one way or another and with what Ive been working on with my boys has taught me that being forcefull is not how you become leader. problem I have with my two is that they (ok, KAISER) doesn't act aggressive until he is 2 foot away from another dog - even then it's a rare occurrence i must admit on the rare occasion it happens i pull him back with a NO at the same time and sit him to face me and i don't release him until he's stopped bouncing. I then ask the owner if they've not run off lol.....if he can approach again, if he acts the same - I go through the same process. Must be rare occasion, I didnt see no aggression with Kaiser at the camp site unless I missed something :ran_biggrin: IMO there is no right or wrong to the method you are using sarah, if it works for both you all then how is it wrong? This is the main reason why I havent started any of the dog behaviour courses yet, because there are simply so many methods out there that people use I would end up confused with what I am doing now! IMO if there was an actual right and wrong method then how have we ended up with so many different methods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 being forcefull is not how you become leader. Totally agree with you, Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted October 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 no, to be fair to him, it's not very often at all Kimba hasn't ever done this when first coming into contact with another dog but once or twice kaiser just really doesnt like another dog and snarls and raises his hackles - that I don't agree with and he gets put in his place with how i mentioned above because what i dont want to happen is for kimba to pick up on kaiser being like that then i have 2 dogs trying to snap that I have to control Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 because what i dont want to happen is for kimba to pick up on kaiser being like that then i have 2 dogs trying to snap that I have to control I can agree with you on that one Just before we booked the behaviourist in I found that both Marley and Bandit were becoming aggressive with other dogs, and trust me when you think one is difficult to control in that mind two is a nightmare not to mention scary aswell! Sounds to me like you are doing whats best for your pack sarah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Sarah, do you think Kaiser shows aggression towards other dogs more because of the other dog rather than himself? i.e. is he more likely to react that way to dogs that rush up to him, get in his face, dominate him etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted October 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Sarah, do you think Kaiser shows aggression towards other dogs more because of the other dog rather than himself? i.e. is he more likely to react that way to dogs that rush up to him, get in his face, dominate him etc? it's normally him bouncing to meet another dog really - when we were at camp last weekend - I walked my boys over to meet Gray (aka asbo dog lol) - Mary and Tony's dog, and kaiser started walking slowly and his hackles raised when they were nose to nose and started growling. but - if he goes near Odin - Linda's dog, he rolls on his back and submits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 it's normally him bouncing to meet another dog really - when we were at camp last weekend - I walked my boys over to meet Gray (aka asbo dog lol) - Mary and Tony's dog, and kaiser started walking slowly and his hackles raised when they were nose to nose and started growling. but - if he goes near Odin - Linda's dog, he rolls on his back and submits What was Gray doing, when you were walking Kaiser towards him? Had they met before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted October 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 no they hadn't met before grey was just standing there watching him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 no they hadn't met before grey was just standing there watching him Was Kaiser's (or Gray's) tail wagging? Was it moving side to side slowly or held stiffly upright? You might find that if it does become something more common that you can usually pre-empt it if you know what body language to look for as warning sign at least one dog is not comfortable. Things to look out for which show a dog is in a heightened state of arousal: - Fixed stare; either one or both of the dogs staring at each other directly eye to eye - An upright, stiff tail that moves slowly side to side - Hackles up - The dogs moving stiffly, slowly towards each other - taught, stitled body language - Meeting each other head on; holding their heads side by side and eyeballing each other - Mouth closed, ears alert - Posturing; the dog is holding himself upright and 'puffing' himself up I don't encourage my dogs to greet other dogs head on. Some dogs can find this quite confrontational, so I encourage them to sniff each other and if I see any of the above body language (you can usually feel it instinctively) I stop before they greet each other. This article is written about dog parks, and what to look out for, but is a really worthwhile read in terms of what more subtle signs we should watch out for in our dog's body language when it comes to interacting with other dogs: http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:keZvbaH90xkJ:www.dogsofgleneira.org/pdfs/off_lead_dogs.pdf+dog+parks+arousal+wendy&hl=en&gl=au&sig=AFQjCNFACV7P9Jglyot9LQrrqSFmygd07g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted October 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Was Kaiser's (or Gray's) tail wagging? Was it moving side to side slowly or held stiffly upright? http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:keZvbaH90xkJ:www.dogsofgleneira.org/pdfs/off_lead_dogs.pdf+dog+parks+arousal+wendy&hl=en&gl=au&sig=AFQjCNFACV7P9Jglyot9LQrrqSFmygd07g it never stops wagging lol great post Bec- added to rep will keep an eye on these things and take note when it happens again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cher Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I started watching Cesar, along with every other dog show I could, this July when we got Akasha. She was eight weeks and I was home for the summer (I'm a teacher). My husband, Michael, and I were completely blown away by him at first, thinking his way seemed to work, but then I started researching him. As people have previously said, he is not training typical puppies. He's working with dogs with serious problems. For that population, I think he's incredible, and I don't judge him for the fact that he's been bitten 300 times. He works with dogs that bite people. That's the whole point. However, I believe his methods are not a good idea for puppies, and they can be dangerous when inexperienced people like me are trying to implement them. I know his show says not to try this at home, but come on! Many people who watch that show are first time dog owners or dog owners who are trying to train a puppy. It's natural that some of them will attempt some of his techniques after seeing them work so beautifully. It's easy to mistake typical puppy nipping or general obnoxious puppy behavior as aggression or as out of control behavior. Akasha was a nightmare for the first month, but I didn't realize that she would just begin to naturally grow out of a lot of it. Additionally, Cesar doesn't teach commands on the show, so it looks as though one can simply train a dog with body language instead of commands. Again, probably not the best idea for most people. Cesar did influence our family in one important way; he encouraged us to stop talking so much. Akasha was constantly being told "No", mostly for jumping up and nipping. My mother, who lives with us, was yelling it at her all the time. I started suggesting that we handle her silently as much as possible and it made a big difference. I don't think she had any idea what "No" meant because she heard it all the time. We used alternative commands to redirect her sometimes, (like "sit"), and sometimes we just silently walked her away from the area and stood somewhere boring the house with her, ignoring her. I have used Victoria Stillwell's techinques, as well as those taught on a show called "God Dog U" in the U.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Pack Leader: Would you say Kaiser is protective when it comes to you and/or wants your attention at all times? Smeagle made some very good points and i would like to just add one or two things. Watch a dogs ears are another sign (tucked or arched back ears natural instinct to protect ears). I too don't encourage Lana to meet head on nor run to another dog. I am around Lana giving her praise and/or treats making her comfortable as much as possible. She trust, feels safe, and now i will not let any harm come to her. I also bring them in the same area for a couple of minutes. I introduce Lana to the new dog (that i have already been introduce too) by inviting him over or by be coaching Lana to the other dog. This is just a big habit of mine from training more than one dog in the same area and has been successful. Most importantly both owners are not tensed but naturally calm. I take Lana just about everywhere that she can go but when she is around other people or dogs i have a close eye on Lana. Not that i dont trust Lana it's that i dont know the other dogs/owners. It annoys me when people (most of all kids) run up to a dog and/or reach their hand out in front of a dogs nose. It is a very bad and unsafe practice. Not knowing who the dog is and the dog not knowing you could be a formula for a bit or aggressive reaction.Lets not forget about owners who let thier dogs do the same thing. Yes Lana goes into pet store with me and yes Lana meets people and dogs. As i said before dogs are still an animal and have a mind of their own. I don't believe there is no way that i can prevent reaction and i can greatly reduce it. Dogs can go off for no reason understood by us, seen by us and/or missed by us. They too have senses which some are far better than our own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted October 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 No - Kaiser's definitely not protective lol he just wants to have his nose everywhere and be friends with everyone - he's still very much in the "i'm a puppy and I want to play" stage even though he's one next month lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lana Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 ok just wanted to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboysmum Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 i would like to rehabilitated by him lol - i would need a vrey firm hand indeed - he could take a look at the huskys after that mmmmmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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