Which head collar is best ???

[siberian_wolf]

I currently use a halti on Gizmo at the moment but during the camping trip Linda (valkries) let me try her canny collar which was much better. When I had Bandit on a halti he:

became extremely anxious with it on,

continued to pull anyway,

continually faught against the halti (tryig to get it off),

had awfull sore marks on his face afterwards

I took te halti off Bandit completely and stopped using it as it was really that bad and I would rather get pulled about than have a highly srtessed dog! I tried the canny collar on Bandit a the camping trip, expecting things to be the same as they were with the halti but they were the opposite Bandit walked beautifully with the canny collar and was ALOT more relaxed.

We are now looking at buying canny collars for our 3, when finances pick up.

[lynnmw1208]

good luck with the head collar! I tried using the gentle leader brand and it worked for 2 weeks and then he was back to pulling. I actually didn't like it because he would get excited around other dogs (which he always does) and he would pull his neck real hard. So we went back to the prong collar. He still pulls but not nearly as much and we used it while training him so he knows the cues to sit with it better than the head collar. The prong collars don't hurt em at all due to the THICK hair around their neck. Pongo ignores his now like it's not even on lol. let us know how it works for ya!

[Macdog]

They do look a bit like a medieval torture device but when you put one on yourself, you'll find that it's not actually painful - it's just a tightening sensation and they work well because they don't require you to give a big correction at all (in fact when used properly you let the dog correct itself) and unlike check chains etc the correction is applied evenly around the neck.

Many dogs can find head collars more aversive than prongs, I've never seen a dog put on a prong collar give the same reaction you often see dogs give when they are put on head collars

Obviously though you use the tool you feel most comfortable with, it might be worthwhile investing on some one on one training with him so you can get a bit more guidance and help with your handling skills

Qualified animal behaviorists are very, very cautious about the use of punishment / negative reinforcement. See the various position statements by the American Society of Animal Behavior. I believe they are reasonably consistent with what Bec has also been saying.

(The scientific definition of punishment, by the way, is very close to that of negative reinforcement.)

"AVSAB’s position is that punishment1 (e.g. choke chains, pinch collars, and electronic collars) should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. This is due to the potential adverse effects which include but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people interacting with animals."

"The adverse effects of punishment and the difficulties in administering punishment effectively have been well documented, especially in the early 1960s when such experiments were still allowed. For instance, if the punishment is not strong enough, the animal may habituate or get used to it, so that the owner needs to escalate the intensity."

"The standard of care for veterinarians specializing in behavior is that punishment is not to be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. Consequently, the AVSAB urges that veterinarians in general practice follow suit. Additionally punishment should only be used when animal owners are made aware of the possible adverse effects."

"Perhaps one of the most compelling reasons to use punishment sparingly is that punishment fails to address the fact that the bad behavior is occurring because it has somehow been reinforcedâ€â€either intentionally or unintentionally. That is, owners tend to punish bad behaviors some of the time while inadvertently rewarding these same behaviors at other times. In this way, they accidentally set their pets up to receive punishment repeatedly by sometimes unintentionally rewarding the bad behavior, which is how the behavior was learned in the first place. This inconsistency is confusing to the animal and can cause frustration or anxiety. Punishment also fails to tell the animal what it should be performing instead."

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(From my own simple observation, the difficulty with prong collars, even if they didn't hurt or choke, is that they still send a poor message to the public at large simply because of their barbaric appearance. The message unequivocal. "It's OK to choke a dog." In our society where perception and spin are everything, this is a real concern.)

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[Macdog]

i cant use plain old flat collars cuz mine can slip them i use semi-slips

Yes, I've seen them. They seem to give good control and be comfortable for the dog as well.

Both Kayko's and Diva's flat collars are woven with the plastic insert buckles. Like army webbing, I suppose.

Diva slipped out only once. The little witch. :-)

[tanya maggs]

Everyone has given some great info on here thank you very much

We to pets at home to get one and guess what bad news they didnt have any so i had to get a halti because football was on soon and the other half wouldnt of taken me anywhere else today and I really needed something today anyways the good news is just got back from walking them and it was fine took loadz of treats kept him by my side for the most part happy dayz still think I will get a canny collar when i see one though

[Kells xx]

when im training i find cut up hotdoga never fail lol

[Bec]

Qualified animal behaviorists are very, very cautious about the use of punishment / negative reinforcement. See the various position statements by the American Society of Animal Behavior. I believe they are reasonably consistent with what Bec has also been saying.

The problem with condemning the use of aversives in training is that we all use them to some point.

Head collars, no pull harnesses, even using the change of direction or stop/start techniques are all aversive to the dog. Using vocal corrections, time outs, withholding treats etc are all aversive - who can sit here and say that they have never done anything to their dog that the dog finds unpleasant? I sure can't. Tools like head collars simply would not work if they weren't aversive, but you often get purely positive trainers promoting them like they are a harmless tool that is gentle and kind.

We also need to remember that it is the dog who decides what he finds aversive, not the owner. I've seen quite a few dogs completely shut down on head collars, but work happily on prongs. I've seen "purely positive" trainers persevere with using a head collar on a dog when the dog clearly is shutting down, stressed and hurting itself trying to get it off. But it's ok as long as it's under the guise of being positive. Suzanne Clothier's articles on head collars really sums up my thoughts on the tool, or using tools in training in general.

http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/54/97/

(From my own simple observation, the difficulty with prong collars, even if they didn't hurt or choke, is that they still send a poor message to the public at large simply because of their barbaric appearance. The message unequivocal. "It's OK to choke a dog." In our society where perception and spin are everything, this is a real concern.)

Gee, Macdog. I don't let anyone's possible perceptions of my training methods or the tools I may or may not use get in the way of doing what is best for my dog. At the end of the day, I have well trained dogs, who are well mannered and happy, to me that speaks far more volume than what methods or tools I use to get them there.

[Macdog]

Hi Bec, I still think you are saying fundamentally the same thing as the AVSAB regarding 'aversives'. They do not condemn their use. They simply say that the more severe ones should not be used as a "first-line or easy use tool" because they "can put the safety of the pet and the person administering the punishment at risk".

They do distinguish between "seemingly innocuous" punishments like shouting "no" and other "severe" punishments (your term: aversaries).

("Punishment" is their scientific term for "anything that decreases the likelihood a behavior will occur again". You use the term "aversary" which is much clearer.)

Interesting article by Clothier. I've never heard anyone come out against head halters before. But does she not seem to suck and blow at the same time, though? "Relationship Centered Training Approach" is great but perhaps quick to use the bigger tools early on for the quick fix? Or maybe it's too late here and I'm reading too much into her article?

.

[Bec]

Hi Bec, I still think you are saying fundamentally the same thing as the AVSAB regarding 'aversives'. They do not condemn their use. They simply say that the more severe ones should not be used as a "first-line or easy use tool" because they "can put the safety of the pet and the person administering the punishment at risk".

They do distinguish between "seemingly innocuous" punishments like shouting "no" and other "severe" punishments (your term: aversaries).

Yes but the problem is that the more tools you go through and more methods you try and fail with, the more resistant the dog becomes to training.

If I had a dog who was a chronic leash puller (for example) I wouldn't waste my time using tools that 'might' work, I would go with a method and tool I knew would work.

The other problem is that, as I said earlier, the dog chooses what is most aversive to them. If a dog shuts down completely on a head collar but works better on a prong collar, how can we say that the prong collar was the most aversive (severe) tool? What tool works best for each dog depends on the dog, and the handler's ability. I personally find prongs collars way easier to use than head collars - to use a head collar so it is minimally aversive to the dog, you would need to desensitize the dog to it first. Sometimes, even after this, the dog can still find simply wearing the head collar aversive (punishing). I am yet to see this happen with the prong collar, which is only aversive when the leash tightens, which means that it is far easier to apply a correction at the right time than it is with a head collar.

("Punishment" is their scientific term for "anything that decreases the likelihood a behavior will occur again". You use the term "aversary" which is much clearer.)

Not to be nitpicky but I said aversive not aversary but yes, I find it a much clearer term myself.

Interesting article by Clothier. I've never heard anyone come out against head halters before. But does she not seem to suck and blow at the same time, though? "Relationship Centered Training Approach" is great but perhaps quick to use the bigger tools early on for the quick fix? Or maybe it's too late here and I'm reading too much into her article?

What are the 'bigger tools'? To me, they are all just tools, and which one is best to use is entirely dependent on the dog, the handler, and their situation.

I know quite a few trainers who would not use head collars as a first resort. Clothier is not coming out against them in that she's saying she'd never use them or that they should never be used, but simply highlighting the issues and misconceptions about the tool. Many "purely positive" trainers will use them to the detriment of the dog simply because head collars are promoted as gentle and non-aversive. The thing that sticks out most in Clothier's article is that she's saying no tool should be used as a bandaid, just an aid. This really encapsulates my thoughts on any training tool:

Past that, here's the REAL message: NO training equipment can substitute for a strong, mutually respectful relationship. Pulling on lead is NOT respectful, and points to underlying problems in the relationship which need resolution. Halters or any other piece of equipment might be important crutches to lean on while resolving the real problem - pulling is just a symptom of that real problem. Pay attention to trainers like Turid Rugaas, and realize that it is the relationship, not the training equipment, that allows you to gain the dog's voluntary cooperation.

To answer a question many ask, "What is your preferred training equipment?" My answer is always this: A respectful, committed relationship built on trust, mutual respect, attentiveness and empathy, backed up with a buckle collar or martingale collar and a leash to keep your dog safe. Anything else is a band-aid or a crutch that may have to be used for a while as we work toward that kind of relationship.

[Joey.Zarly]

I can use, slip chains/collars, show chains, half checks, halti's, figure of 8 head harness etc and my dogs are fine.. i did get them used to them all.

When training i use a half check or slip chain and have no problem, i use it more for the noise then anything so i can get the attention if need be.

On walks i use this -

It's called the infin8 halter,

A Complete re-design, combining a figure 8 with a martingale collar to create a completely new halter where the pressure across the nose can be adjusted, or faded completely to eventually work just as a collar. This is a brand new training tool - starting with a halter and ending with a dog on a collar.

I do have halti's here if need be, but i am not overlay keen on them as they pull the head inward, which i do not like.

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

tanya look online for the canny - ive not seen them instores but if you look on ebay you should be able 2 pick them up cheaper than normal