Training - Amichein method

[siberian_wolf]

Hey all

As most of you would know about the training we are doing with our boys.

The method of training we are using is known as the Amichein method which is used by many trainers over the world. I first found out about this method when I contacted our trainer who has studied this method for a few years and was taught about this method by Jan Fennell, also known as the Dog Listener.

I was going to do a basic write up about this particular method and how it has helped us, personally, have leadership in our home. Was going to do this via a blog but just wanted to hear what everyone else thought about it first as it is complicated so may take a while to write up.

Would you be interested in knowing more about the method and having the addition on how it has helped us?

[Benno_bro]

Knowledge is power my friend.....I'd happily read it

[gvegan]

I would personally advise against using this method. Most, if not all, trainers I know around the area see this method as being very flawed. The studies used to create this method (observation of captive 'wild' wolves) has now been found to be untrue. Amichien bonding is actually just a fancy-shmancy French word that correlates to Rank Reduction. Sure the method works for some dogs, but only due to the introduction of CONSISTENCY when previously there was NONE. Numerous dogs have been found to go further down hill due to this rank reduction method, sometimes even completely shutting down.

It is all about boundaries, not negative punishment.

However, I do use a very few of the techniques seen in amichien bonding. Mainly the 'ignore for 5 minutes' method upon 'reuniting' with your dog. Both my Sibe and Lab have very bad jumping problems currently and I have found that this ignoring technique has greatly reduced them jumping on ME. Making this work for other people/strangers is a totally different monster that requires a different approach. Making your dog sit/lay before he/she enters a door, etc is also a good technique to use on dogs, especially Sibes.

Just know that the "Dog Listener's" studies and observations are outdated and indeed a tad flawed. Her observations were carried out on a very, very small study group. New evidence has arisen within the last couple of years that actually shows that not all wolf packs/wild dog packs employ the 100% alpha dog hierarchy at all times. Alpha roles have been known to allow lower ranking members to eat first, lead, etc etc... It's not ALWAYS about being the boss.

If anything, I'd say pick and choose some of the techniques used in this method to your likening. I just don't understand the point of owning a robotic-like dog with very little, to no, spontaneous behaviors. I don't own dogs for the sole reason of having furry little robot cuddlers, which a lot of owners seem to want. I do not want to have to instruct my dog on every single matter.

As long as your dog trusts you, respect will usually always follow. Patience and understanding are KEY!

[siberian_wolf]

If anything, I'd say pick and choose some of the techniques used in this method to your likening. I just don't understand the point of owning a robotic-like dog with very little, to no, spontaneous behaviors. I don't own dogs for the sole reason of having furry little robot cuddlers, which a lot of owners seem to want. I do not want to have to instruct my dog on every single matter.

excellant post +1 to rep

With the amount of so many different methods around I can see why people wouldnt agree to one particular method. I just wondered if anyone else would be interested in hearing more about it as we have had great success with the method. I myself do not want 2 robotic dogs otherwise I wouldnt have got huskies! We are using the Amichein method and I wouldnt say my 3 were robots, they are still allowed to behave like dogs but they are not allowed to show any aggression or dominance to any dogs or people, pull to excess of the lead, attention/fuss/on the sofa or bed on the boys terms.

[Benno_bro]

I'd still like to read though, as I prefer to read from peoples experiences rather than bland instructions (even if i don't agree with people sometimes, it's still good to get both sides of the story etc). That way you can pick and choose so to speak

[Bec]

I would personally advise against using this method. Most, if not all, trainers I know around the area see this method as being very flawed. The studies used to create this method (observation of captive 'wild' wolves) has now been found to be untrue. Amichien bonding is actually just a fancy-shmancy French word that correlates to Rank Reduction. Sure the method works for some dogs, but only due to the introduction of CONSISTENCY when previously there was NONE. Numerous dogs have been found to go further down hill due to this rank reduction method, sometimes even completely shutting down.

It is all about boundaries, not negative punishment.

However, I do use a very few of the techniques seen in amichien bonding. Mainly the 'ignore for 5 minutes' method upon 'reuniting' with your dog. Both my Sibe and Lab have very bad jumping problems currently and I have found that this ignoring technique has greatly reduced them jumping on ME. Making this work for other people/strangers is a totally different monster that requires a different approach. Making your dog sit/lay before he/she enters a door, etc is also a good technique to use on dogs, especially Sibes.

Just know that the "Dog Listener's" studies and observations are outdated and indeed a tad flawed. Her observations were carried out on a very, very small study group. New evidence has arisen within the last couple of years that actually shows that not all wolf packs/wild dog packs employ the 100% alpha dog hierarchy at all times. Alpha roles have been known to allow lower ranking members to eat first, lead, etc etc... It's not ALWAYS about being the boss.

If anything, I'd say pick and choose some of the techniques used in this method to your likening. I just don't understand the point of owning a robotic-like dog with very little, to no, spontaneous behaviors. I don't own dogs for the sole reason of having furry little robot cuddlers, which a lot of owners seem to want. I do not want to have to instruct my dog on every single matter.

As long as your dog trusts you, respect will usually always follow. Patience and understanding are KEY!

I tend to agree.

From what I've learnt about amichien bonding, it's basically a more specific NILIF type program, which is why people see a change in their dogs, because they've introduced consistency and boundaries which were not there before.

I think there are things that we can take from Fennel's methods, some are things many of us probably do already.

I do think though that there is a time and place for all four quadrants of operant conditioning, including negative punishment. The removal of a reward is a very useful tool in dog training and one many of us can utilise effectively. In fact, I think it's one of the most useful of the quadrants when it comes to teaching our dogs and reinforcing what behaviours we want to see. Everyone must use it at some point, even unknowingly

[ISDW]

I get completely confused by all the different advice and training methods, and I have learnt now to take a little bit from here, and a little bit from there.

I got the Jan Fennell book a few years ago, watched the programmes, and I also know someone who was trained by her that lives and works here in Ireland. She came to my place once to help me with one of my dogs and a foster dog. Whether it did any good, I don't honestly know. However, she runs a small rescue and helps out her local larger rescue and uses Amichien bonding all of the time and has managed to rehabilitate a good few dogs that were destined to be put to sleep, including a lot of Malamutes.

Most of the, I don't know what to call them, highly regarded shall we say, trainers here in Ireland now use positive reward methods and frown on the alpha theory. So, having spoken to a few of them and read some of their stuff, I am tending to lean more that way.

My boy Diesel, who is the dog in charge in the pack used to push the boundaries with me, but now he is the best behaved dog I have here. I think its because he trusts me and I trust him. He loves working and would seriously pull until he dropped if thats what he thought I wanted him to do. However, I don't ever try and force my wishes on him. I used to, he was one dog I tried the Amichien bonding on, because I used to think he would dominate me. He never does, he will dominate the other dogs, but never me or the kids.

So, I think its fine to post the info, let people work out what works best for their dogs - and for themselves. I always think that dog training is more about training the person than the dog

[Chewbacca_&_me]

To be honest I do think that it must be useful with aggression issues and with rescue dogs who sometimes refuse to trust

new owners, but I was a bit put off by one change in chewys behavior. After 3 sessions I guess he thought that he was in

trouble every time I approached him and he would run or back off as if I had been hitting him or something. He seemed to

take it very harshly. When I noticed it, I was a bit put off. It would have really bothered me badly if he stopped coming to

me and sitting with me. I can totally understand why a bird/hunting dog, search and rescue, or other highly trained dog,

would benefit from this training as well but since Im only training a companion, Im not going to continue using this.

I also would like to recommend that if you want to use this for aggression issues/leadership, that it would be a great thing

to have an extra pair of hands to help you. I feel the dogs would have responded better if maybe my husband had been

here to help with solo and then I could work with chewy so they would not have gotten wicked jealous because one was

aloud out (to train) and the other wasnt. I think it will help the balance if one adult is inside paying some attention and

spending time with the husky who is not outside training.

[Sarah]

So, I think its fine to post the info, let people work out what works best for their dogs - and for themselves. I always think that dog training is more about training the person than the dog

snap

I'd like to hear about it and also what you've learnt from this Amy

[Bec]

ISDW, great post!

I prefer to think of myself as a leader, more so than an alpha. I don't know why the two terms sound different to me, but I guess alpha implies more forcefulness than the word leader.

I think a lot of people think being the alpha involves asserting your dominance on the dog - I don't want a submissive dog, I want a dog who respects me, the two are very different things IMO.

I also think more people need to learn how to use positive reinforcement and negative punishment more successfully.

[siberian_wolf]

Hey Karen

Its good to hear from someone else who has tried the same method as we are. The only reason why we started this method was because I had enough of Marley's aggression with other dogs and also the fights between Gizmo and Marley which we have had success with and I havent had continuous problems since. I have only had one fight break out between them once which was my own fault and Marley hasnt snapped at another dog either. Although it wasnt at the top of my list, the pulling is getting better too

Reading posts does make me think if the method is as good as I was first thinking. However, because of the success I have had with my boys in the areas I was most worried about and the lead walking being an improvement I will continue with what we are doing. I still like them to be dogs and tbh as long as there isnt aggression or too much dominance (such as the case of Gizmo) Im not that fussed.

[Chewbacca_&_me]

I think a lot of people think being the alpha involves asserting your dominance on the dog - I don't want a submissive dog, I want a dog who respects me, the two are very different things IMO.

-Bec

Thank You, You totally hit the nail on the head with that comment. That is also my goal. IMO the thing that most husky owners enjoy

about their huskies is that they have open, happy, very sociable personalities...so I choose to show them Im the leader with trust and

respect, rather than overbearing dominance.

[Bec]

Do what is working for you, Amy.

I think you're having success with the method because it's giving your boys a good clear structure which is what is needed when you have fighting if it's working you are obviously doing something right!

[Sarah]

I don't know why the two terms sound different to me, but I guess alpha implies more forcefulness than the word leader.

I think some of this has come from "The dog Whisperer" on TV he is always reinforcing that you must be the alpha - not saying he uses force but he's so well known - i don't agree with ALL his methods but find some of them very useful.

Like karen said - a bit of everything thrown into the mix often helps

sorry amy - dont want to detract from your thread lol

[siberian_wolf]

Do what is working for you, Amy.

I think you're having success with the method because it's giving your boys a good clear structure which is what is needed when you have fighting if it's working you are obviously doing something right!

Thanks bec.It is definately working even though its taking a while (About 3 months now) but we are having fun playing the different games in the process which really helps loosen the mood

I think some of this has come from "The dog Whisperer" on TV he is always reinforcing that you must be the alpha - not saying he uses force but he's so well known - i don't agree with ALL his methods but find some of them very useful.

Like karen said - a bit of everything thrown into the mix often helps

sorry amy - dont want to detract from your thread lol

thats ok sarah. I agree with you Some methods I agree with and some I dont but its everyone to their own personal preferance and what they find works best for them in the long run