Had Enough......

[Lana]

My Alpha male did this

Lana: When i was first brought home i could tell my Alpha Male (Eric) had vast knowledge and training with dogs. As soon as we got out the car i wanted to run around and explore my new home but my Alpha male had other ideas. He first let all the family out the car first before i even set foot on the ground. After everyone in the van left i was allowed out and just as i thought i was free my Alpha Male had no more than about 6-8 inches of chain for me to walk...which is no further than my head passed his legs. I fought at first and cried as i was confused but i quickly learned.

When we got in the house i was allowed to venture off around the first floor. Then my Alpha walked me outside to my new backyard area. Then the training took place.

Alpha Male: Hi my name is Eric and i am the owner of my baby Lana. Just in case some of you are wondering why she and I refers myself as the Alpha Male is because i am the leader of the pack just like when Huskies are in a pack there is an Alpha Male. My Father is a outstanding Dog Trainer in Maryland. He has trained dogs for over 20+ years. My father works with all types of dogs including Department of Defense K-9 Dog. My father also taught me how to train dogs since the age of six.

When i got Lana i was fast at work. Letting her know what was ok and what was not while allowing her time to get to know the place as her home. Walking Lana was a challenge at first because huskies and be stubborn. I first walked Lana in the house. Lana had to understand that she will walk where i walk and where i wanted her to walk. Lana understood she was not allowed no more than her head past my legs. I achieve this by only allowing six-eight inches of chain, which is really me almost walking her by the collar. We walked around the back yard before we when for a real walk.

The backyard was successful because it allowed it had the unpredictable surrounding distractions where as the house didn't. This showed Lana regardless of our surrounding she must still obey at all times. When we started walking out side the gate she was not allowed to put her nose down until i wanted her too. If Lana would pull (because they are working dogs) i would stop walking and make her sit until i was ready. After two weeks she really caught on. My experience with dogs walking as shown me that we must ensure that they are doing what we allow them to do and not what they want to do it. This tells them that "we are the Alpha" and/or "Pack Leader". The moment we allow them to achieve the littlest dominance over us it could be a direct challenge to us. Pack Leaders/Alpha does not tolerate challenges.

This does not mean that we cannot love love our dogs, play with them, enjoy them as a part of the family, reward them nor does it mean we have to be on them all the time, however it does shows and remind them where they fall in the pack/Family. I must say other than German Rottweilers huskies are stubborn at times.

[Sarah]

THanks Bec, great advice added to rep - going to try this tonight, I always take treats with me on walks as they are so food motivated it's untrue lol i just can't give treats when walking when i have 2 of them but will tonight when i take Kimba on a one on one walk

Lana - great post added to rep

[Bec]

My experience with dogs walking as shown me that we must ensure that they are doing what we allow them to do and not what they want to do it.

I get what you are saying and agree to a point, but IMO my dogs do what I tell them to do because they want to, not because they feel forced to.

My dogs comply with my commands because they want to, which guarantees me more reliability than having them comply because they are scared/forced/ "have to".

[Lana]

Alpha/Pack Leader: We love our huskies and that's why we choose them, however like my old man tell owners when they are in training class "We must remember that dogs are dogs and not Human." I spoil Lana more than anything but at the end of the day no matter how much i love her, she is still a dog. Lana is a part of your family but she must know her place in the chain. One thing my old man warned me about "when it comes to huskies is that they are very smart dogs who challenges (or test) you on dominance. If you let have dominance over you it is typically hard for them to turn back" Every dog is different just like every owner. It is great that we encourage them to complete things because they want to but what happens when they don't want to? Is it ok that they don't want to and let that be the end of it? What if all the encouragement doesn't work? I believe that there is a time and place for everything. Lana does what i want her to do because she wants to and because she is expected too.

Lana gets rewards all the time for doing things right and get corrected for things wrong. Many people are very successful with different types of method that works for them. At the end of the day when i turn my back i know that Lana is doing what i want her to do and because she wants too. I also know that when any member of my family tells her to do something she will do it.

When it comes down to walking yes there are had been times in the past that i forced her to do what i wanted her to do. Walking in different directions, wanting to charge other dogs that could be aggressive, chasing game, walking my kids (pulling), walking in the street, walking ahead of me, etc. Withe the unknown and unpredictable outside world it is important for Lana to do because she wants to but also just because i said so. As Pack Leader Lana looks for me to protect her as well as for loving, direction, and enjoyment. I am not here to say who method is better than another just what has been successful for us.

[siberian_wolf]

that sounds great saz really hope it works for you

Im doing lead work with my 3 now too, if ya like feel free to take tips, etc from my posts on the behaviourost thread if you like

[Bec]

Alpha/Pack Leader: We love our huskies and that's why we choose them, however like my old man tell owners when they are in training class "We must remember that dogs are dogs and not Human." I spoil Lana more than anything but at the end of the day no matter how much i love her, she is still a dog. Lana is a part of your family but she must know her place in the chain. One thing my old man warned me about "when it comes to huskies is that they are very smart dogs who challenges (or test) you on dominance. If you let have dominance over you it is typically hard for them to turn back" Every dog is different just like every owner. It is great that we encourage them to complete things because they want to but what happens when they don't want to? Is it ok that they don't want to and let that be the end of it? What if all the encouragement doesn't work? I believe that there is a time and place for everything. Lana does what i want her to do because she wants to and because she is expected too.

Lana gets rewards all the time for doing things right and get corrected for things wrong. Many people are very successful with different types of method that works for them. At the end of the day when i turn my back i know that Lana is doing what i want her to do and because she wants too. I also know that when any member of my family tells her to do something she will do it.

When it comes down to walking yes there are had been times in the past that i forced her to do what i wanted her to do. Walking in different directions, wanting to charge other dogs that could be aggressive, chasing game, walking my kids (pulling), walking in the street, walking ahead of me, etc. Withe the unknown and unpredictable outside world it is important for Lana to do because she wants to but also just because i said so. As Pack Leader Lana looks for me to protect her as well as for loving, direction, and enjoyment. I am not here to say who method is better than another just what has been successful for us.

I get what you are saying, I was just reinforcing that I train my dogs in a way that means they want to do what I ask them to do. I'm not saying that they always get their own way, or that I let them do whatever they want. My dogs are far from spoilt. They know the rules and they obey, I just meant that they don't do it because they are forced to but because they want to comply with me.

I am a good pack leader and my dogs obey me out of respect not because they are submissive to me or whatever. Of course, there are occasions where they don't want to do something - like when I clip my beagle's nails. She hates having her nails clipped, but she will still sit there while I hold her and she'll put up with it.

My dogs respect me as a leader and because of that, when I give them a command they comply because they want to. If they didn't want to obey me that we send a red signal to me that I have dogs who aren't interested in obeying me and don't have respect for me.

[Sarah]

Thanks Amy - will grab whatever help i can get - always willing to learn

[Lana]

I understand what you were saying. Like i stated before my dad is a professional dog trainer for over 20yrs and trained hundreds of dogs. Though i do some things different than him i steal learned so much from him . He started me training/learning about dogs at the age of six year old. Once again there is a time and place for everything and dogs doing what we want them to do because they want to do it is the best way, however those small times that they want to do thing their way call for a more stricter method for that moment. This really applies to puppies, real dominate breeds, and aggressive breeds. I know you did say this but let me share with people (if you dont mind) about "submissive" One of the first things my father and I always tell our members on the first day is that "submissive' doesn't mean bad, neggative, and/or lack of free will. Just like you said "comply" is what we tell our members is a type of "positive submission" Our loved pets overcoming what they may want to do and comply with want we want them to do. Once that happens we encourage our members to reward and/or praise their dog(s).

There are methods of what we call "Controlled Submissive"> This is with rare but nessarcy if you want your dog to accomplish a task were there is letter room for error and if there is an error it could mean the life or death of some one. I am sure you are saying "like when" Well my father trains K-9 (which does not mean Sheppards only) for the Department of Defense (DoD) This is military dogs, federal dogs, and anything that deals with handlers and Dogs. It is key that you form a trust but these dogs are not just here to be your friend only but also here to protect and serve. Controlled Submissive may sound worst than what it is. This method is to let the dog know under no circumstances is a command to be ignored, half way followed, challenged but complete compliance. There are times where a dog (just an small example because i cannot go into detail) where a dog must avoid all distractions and/or people (other than handler). Submission is really a simple method way we train but can become challenging but successful. With professional supervision we have the handlers simple lay their dog down, have the handler turn their dog belly up, place one hand on their chest, and prevent them from turning over. No this doesnt hurt the dog in any way. This achieves two goals at one time: 1. This is the ultimate way of a dog to show totally submissive. 2. Achieve a trust building at its highest level. This is where a dog is at its most vulnerable stage. There have no way to defend or attack. (If you want to know more i can provide you with some research ) Through our training, once again this is not the training we teach to our members with normal dogs, this tells that dog that you will always submit to me, you can trust me that i will protect you (Pack Leaders protects the pack as well as several other things), that i trust you will always protect me and doing all these with the knowledge you dont havee to fear me. We NEVER encourage any member to train their dog out of fear regardless your dog purpose (family pet, guard dog, Working dog , etc). A feared dog is a unstable dog as they may attack without notice because of its fear. By reading a lot of your post in forums I am positive that you are a really good trainer and Pack Leader. If i some how made you feel that i was applying anything different , then i apologize to you and ask that you accept my apology. That was never my intent. I just wanted to share my experience with everyone.

Once again just because my father is a professional dog trainer and i have vast knowledge and experience with training dogs (to a point where i would like to say i am a professional too) doesn't mean our method is the only way. We enjoy reading new methods that work for people with their breed of dog and methods that doesnt work. I believe when it comes to dogs and training everyone must have open ears and mind. Every dog is different. My old man has 4 wall where members can write their experiences good or bad for new members to read. I am can say that we honestly have no one write a bad experience from our training. My father training is not your normal train class. Members meet with us 3 times a week, 2 hours session, for 6 months. Now members can leave when they choose but we encourage them to complete the who session. This is a hobby for my father and I. It's not about the money really. For 6 months he chargers members $50.00. We don't advertise, no marketing, only word of mouth. There are other classes where it does get expensive and that for Shows/Competitions. LOL no that was not an advertisement. Just wanted to give you some background.

I hope that i can be of some assistance to people here as well as you to assist me.

[Bec]

I get what you are saying Lana, I guess it just depends on what your definition of submissive is. We probably just use different words for a similar thing

To me a submissive dog is one who walks around with his head down, ears back, eyes down; 'submissive' is not a state that I aim for or body language that I am interested in seeing when I work with my dogs. A dog who complies out of respect for the handler is not submissive, they are keen and happy to work for you and looks to you for guidance. A dog who complies out of respect for the handler displays confident not submissive body language.

The alpha roll or 'controlled submissive' position is not a method I would ever use - I know you said that it's impossible for a dog to fight back from this position but I have seen people seriously bitten when rolling their dogs over like that - in fact you see Cesar Milan who uses it often get bitten when doing it all the time. IMO it is very possible for dogs to fight back from that position. You're in big trouble if the dog decides not to submit and tries to fight or flight.

My trainer is an accredited law enforcement dog trainer too, and has trained many security/PP/police dogs as well as specialising in working with aggressive dogs and he won't use that method for the above reasons - but like you said, each to their own and we all have our own methods and training philosophies.

And I am by no means against using aversives in training at all - in fact you'll see me being the first to defend using negative reinforcement or positive punishment, or tools like e-collars and prongs.

No need to apologise BTW - I love talking about training, and sharing different methods/philosophies is how we all learn and what makes life interesting

[Sarah]

Great post Lana, added to to rep.....can i ask one thing though - could you put spaces between paragraphs then it's easier to read-i kept loosing where i was up to

To me a submissive dog is one who walks around with his head down, ears back, eyes down

This would be how i would class a submissive dog as well - in a way one that was scared or frightened - having said that, I see where you're coming from as well Lana, as i'm seeing day by day, although "dog language" IS fairly consistent throughout the world, there are times when it is interpreted differently in different countries and especially in the type of work you and your dad train dogs in - must be so rewarding to see a dog go from a bouncy "i'm ignoring your commands" LOL to one that is totally focussed on you :grinning-smiley-003

[Lana]

Smeagle i agree that a dog should never walk with head down and tail in between their legs. I think you might be missing the sentence where i said we use controlled submissive training with aggressive dogs and work dogs. Also that i said there is a time and place for everything. You're right a dog can bite you just about anytime. DoD training is handled different from aggressive dogs. When we encourage our members to have their dogs lay on back it is not by force. So it's not like wham bam get down now! When on backs there is a little pressure to try to keep the dog on its back but not to the point where dogs are getting aggressive enough to bit. Again it is under professional supervision because some people may not know or see the signs that their dogs is getting aggressive.

Controlled submissive does not happen in one day. Takes time but when completed it is highly successful to the member, the dog, and their mission. Let's also remember that i am not talking about "only" huskies but in general. Each dog is different just like people training is different.

Cesar....well not going to discredit his methods but one remember i said the "member....under supervision" You just don't walk up to people dogs and do anything good or bad. Those dogs don't know me nor do they know if i have good intentions or not. Just like i suggest to people and even more so kids you just don't walk up to a dog and pet them. That's how people get bit. Should always be from the Pack Leader that introduce you to the dog and not just you taking it upon yourself to do it. Pack leader will show the dog that "I' trust this person and its ok. I do not agree that you put your hand up to a dogs nose slowly. NO NO NO! If your going to do that it should be the PL holding your hand as you approach the dog slowly. Nine times out of ten PL will notice reaction and could prevent bad things from happening. (Not always).

We as trainers have very little contact with their dogs. We use our dogs to show examples of. When we have to interact with a members dog we interact with the dog through its PL. Only time that we interact with a dog with out PL are to prevent bits and/or fights which are rare.

E-collars.....well dont encourage people to use it but i wont judge people that do use it. Dogs bark and cow meow. There other ways to keep dogs from barking all hours of the day but like i said there are exceptions to the rule.

Sarah the most rewarding for me are not the dogs gets the training down but the dogs that were abused, aggressive dogs, and adult dogs that reform. We get some many members that come to use saying "i can take it anymore", "this dog is aggressive and if something don't happen i have to get rid of my dog", "she is afraid of everything". It is awesome to see them change into a loving pet and the owners change right with them. What we sometime fail to realize as people is that it starts with us, the Pack Leader.

[Bec]

Like I said Lana - you use the words controlled submissive, I call it respect... we are probably just using different words for a similar thing

I generally don't get other people to handle my dogs, either. I like to reinforce to my dogs that all rewards and exciting things come through me.