social behaviour and training.

[magical Merlin]

hello,

Thought this link may be of intrest to some http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/about-this-website.php

The web-site is designed to give the media and members of the public with more information about the behaviour of dogs and the possible consequences of using aversive training techniques.

Personally i think it has some valid points. Its anti shock/prong/choke collar, however these people are also against shaker bottles and water sprays, which personally i find an exellent method of distraction with various dogs when showing problem bhaviours, (grabbing, biting, self mutilation)

[Sarah]

same here - i've used a water spray only a handful of times but it did the trick

Great site, added to rep

[Bec]

Pretty typical website for the purely positive club.

What I find amusing is that they label any tool like a prong or e-collar or hell, a spray from a water bottle as something that uses fear or pain to train.

In reality it's so far from the truth, if you know how to use these tools correctly and in the right circumstances, they do not cause fear or pain in the dog. I would never use fear or pain as a trainnig method, yet I have seen dozens and dozens of dogs trained on e-collars and prongs who worked happily and confidently. It's really important to remember that what may be aversive for one dog is not so much for another.

Just demonstrates they have no understanding nor experience when it comes to using these tools. If they don't understand how to use corrections or punishment they definitely should not be using it, but to assume they are always detrimental to a dog is naive.

ETA: Not meant to be a dig at you in any way Magical Merlin, I've just run into so many arrogant purely positive trainers that they do my head in a bit... lol. The funniest thing is that while they preach they are positive only most of them are more than happy to smack a head collar or anti pull harness on a dog - which wouldn't work if they weren't aversive.

[Chewbacca_&_me]

I have a question related to techniques. What are your thoughts on clicker training?

If you have used it, how well did it work for you, and did the dog respond easily and well?

[magical Merlin]

hey Bec,

im in agreement that punishement does need to be part of training or a dog wont learn that there is conciquence to a wrong action. However i am anti shock and prong because i dont see the need to inflict pain to train. Have you tried a shock collar on? it bloody hurts! (but then i am a wimp)

Because the dogs i train/rehab are resuces pain enduced training wont work for them. A shaker or water squirt on the other hand will give enough of a "shock" to stop or pay attention.

I think its a fairly usefull website because it gives some information on the new idea of dog behaviour, however it is somewhat limated.

i did see a trainer taking bites from an EBT a few weeks ago. I had to step in, removed the dog, had to pin it to calm it and once that was over it was fine. Didnt try anything with me. Gave it back to the other trainer and because she would not correct the dog it continued to bite at her arms and legs. Grrr Its not aggressive its just a typical idiot EBT that needs training

Erika - i've used clicker training but i cant get out of the habbit of using "good" and commands with it so it doesnt really work for me. I've seen dogs that are clickerd and they show the same results that you get with a dog when you say "good". Personally i think they pick it up at the same rate as normal commands

[Chewbacca_&_me]

Yeah, I agree on the clicker training Merlin, as I have tried it but couldnt quite stop my ingrained responses to appropriate

responses or inappropriate ones. I am more verbal response and body language user than anything else.

I do however agree that in particular, prong collars can be very useful and that if used properly they do not inflict pain. Last

month when chewy decided suddenly that he would pull as hard as he could and practically drag me several blocks that I

would use a prong collar again. I had not used a prong collar on a dog since I was a teenager working with my parents dogs.

The thing that convinced me to do it is that I had literally had to strain every muscle from my waiste up to keep any real

control and walk chewy. IMO these are very good training tools when you know what to do with them. some people do inflict

pain when using them because they think they need to keep the collar cinched up the entire time and be literally choking them

to death to correct bad behavior. this is not so. It took me all of 5 minutes to get him to respond to the collar, and I only had

to cinch it down half way just once. Once he realized that the clinking noise means the prongs would touch his neck even slightly,

he cooled his jets as soon as he heard the first clink...this is the response you want. Many people also hold the leash incorrectly,

and cause the collar to sit improperly at the middle of the neck where it is already tight against the neck and causes pain.

Shock collars are only truly meant to stop a dog from starting to do something wrong and only ever supposed to be set on a lower

setting that distracts the dog. Almost every single person I have met uses them with improper timing and with them set so high

that they scare the living daylights out of the dog the very first time they use it, and so cause fear instead of correction. I dont

use them but I have met a trainer who used them positively and successfully.

[magical Merlin]

i see where you are coming from with the prong now. I have used halfchecks on my dogs before and they learned to associate the clinking with it applying pressure. Again something that can be dangerous when used in the wrong hands, but can be very effective when used correctly.

Have you tried a halti harness? IT worked wonders for my rottiexgsd. He was a big lad. 45kg of muscle. within 6 months i was able to get him just on a collar

[Bec]

I have a question related to techniques. What are your thoughts on clicker training?

If you have used it, how well did it work for you, and did the dog respond easily and well?

I love marker training. I have used clickers but like Merlin find it easier to use a vocal marker (just one less thing to carry!) which for me is "yes".

Now I've trained my dogs to respond to it, it makes training SO much easier, I can teach them things so quickly because you can so easily mark the behaviour you want to see.

I taught my beagle to pick up a wooden dumbell (used for the formal retrieve in obedience training) in one day, with just three short training sessions, last week and what made it easier was marking her behaviour.

Teaching them to pick it up is apparently the hardest thing and I know people who have taken months to train it. Markers definitely make it easier IMO

hey Bec,

im in agreement that punishement does need to be part of training or a dog wont learn that there is conciquence to a wrong action. However i am anti shock and prong because i dont see the need to inflict pain to train. Have you tried a shock collar on? it bloody hurts! (but then i am a wimp)

Because the dogs i train/rehab are resuces pain enduced training wont work for them. A shaker or water squirt on the other hand will give enough of a "shock" to stop or pay attention.

I think its a fairly usefull website because it gives some information on the new idea of dog behaviour, however it is somewhat limated.

I would never use pain or fear to train a dog, IMO It's not productive at all.

I've had both e-collars and prongs on myself, I didn't feel the stim from the e-collar until it was on level 14 or 15 and even then it was only the most subtle of sensations. Definitey not painful It's how you use the tool that is important, using e-collar training properly actually boosts a dog's confidence.

Again I've seen dozens of dogs working on prongs, with confident body language; tails wagging, working happily and responding well - in fact, I've seen a number of dogs respond better to prong collars than head collars, which often shut dogs down completely.

Anyone can misuse a tool so that it causes fear or pain, it's not the tool but the person misusing or abusing it that is the problem.

[Chewbacca_&_me]

The prong worked wonders after about 4 walks with it on. I wanted to switch back to a more gentle collar

so I ordered the semi slips from karly witch tighten if he goes too far forward and when he slightly feels the

pressure he slows again. He has gotten much better about walking. Now my work with achilles is a diff

story as he was never taught to heel or walk calmly so he just doesnt seem to get it. He will also be

introduced to the prong collar, and hopefully he will have a very fast reaction as well since he seems so

very willing to pay attention when made to earn meals and respond easily to verbal prompting.

[magical Merlin]

"Anyone can misuse a tool so that it causes fear or pain, it's not the tool but the person misusing or abusing it that is the problem"

added to rep