"dominance" In Dogs

[Jase]

There is always a lot of discussion on dominance and pack leadership so I thought I would post an excellent webpage by the late Dr Sophia Yin that discusses this and the contrasts of the Cesar Milan approach.

 

Dominance seems to be the most abused word in dog training these days and it is interesting to note that most positive reinforcement trainers rarely use the term and prefer to describe the actual behaviours rather than branding them as 'dominance'.

 

Dr Yin was a leader in dog training with the likes of Victoria Stilwell being a great admirer of her as are most of the positive reinforcement trainers these days.

 

http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance?/dominance.php

 

 

[Bambi92]

The lady that bathed Sasha is a trainer and she posted a video to her facebook page the other day about an advertisement for cesar Milan tv show and it showed the bigger dog attacking the smaller dog it had the head of the smaller dog in it mouth being a trainer he should of seen it coming the dog showed all the signs it was going to attack but he did nothing.

I don't agree with the way he does his training.

A little off topic lol

I remembered seeing dr yin name in Kate's comments she is also a great admirer of hers

Now I shall read the article

[robke]

Need to read more just glanced over it and so much I like. I dislike Milan and his way of doing things.

[Jase]

Yeah, it is a pretty hefty read, but it is considered to be a very good analysis and pointed to by many good dog trainers as the best article on the argument of dominance. 

[NOBELHOWLUC49]

Will def read this when I have a mo…..  Its a bit confusing when people talk about dominance, never really sure what it means….. is it aggressive behaviour, leader of the pack etc…… 

[Jase]

What I find fascinating is that scientists who study wolves in the wilderness have struck out the old concept of "Alpha male" which is essentially what Milan has used as the basis for his methods. Yes there is leadership in a pack but this doesn't generally stem from fighting and so called "dominant" behaviours. It normally starts from the mating and flows down. 

 

In any case, this really isn't about Milan it is more about stopping the abuse of the highly ambiguous term "dominance" when we are trying to work out why our beloved dogs are behaving in an unwanted fashion  Milan is just used as an example of how this type of negative training influences our relationship with our furry best friends.

 

I will freely admit it is a particular bugbear of mine especially when a 'lady' at the park said my dog is very dominant and I should watch some Cesar Milan to learn about behaviour. That, and she said she doesn't trust huskies - so you can imagine my response   All the while her ball-obsessed kelpie stared at his tennis ball and snarled at any dog that came close 

[robke]

got a few of those peeps around here...and I just ignore and walk on...(no dog park around here easy to walk on)...

[NOBELHOWLUC49]

Ahh people and their perfect pooches….. Got love them for the shear amusement value, !sometimes!…… I have to walk away from some people,  they make my hackles rise and i feel all aggressive and want to growl loudly and offensively in human bark…… If I was a woof i think i would need a personal behaviourist on how deal with idiots and stay out of the pound.  

[robke]

I have just down loaded chapter 2 for easy reading LOL..

[Emma]

Great link jase. I must confess so far I've only read the top few paragraphs but what I've seen so far was really insightful! [emoji2]

I wish I could remember where the thread is about pack heirachy and how it differs in a home environment to the traditional alpha. Beta, and subs. Read it s couple of years ago and that was pretty thought provoking stuff too. Think solitary howl may have posted it but cannot remember, lol.

[Jase]

This link talks about packs, some in response to Milan, but aside from the direct criticisms that many of us agree with it has some great info. My intention is not to bash Milan, but rather to talk about the D word 

 

http://www.livescience.com/5846-critics-challenge-dog-whisperer-methods.html

[Emma]

Thanks jase. [emoji182] That was great reading and does challenge the different schools of thought we've developed over the years. I susoect we still have much to learn in the future as understanding continues to progress. [emoji2]

[Jase]

Thanks Emma, I agree it is interesting to see how far the psychology of dogs can go. 

[mydiamond]

I haven't read the article at all just yet, but I didn't realize Dr. Sophia Yin has passed away I'm pretty sure she's the one in Animal Planet's "Dogs 101"? I watch that show a lot so I thought she's still around

 

EDIT: OK I've read a bit of it now. I do think it's very informative and comprehensive. I have nothing against CM himself, but it is truly annoying to hear people misdiagnose their dogs' behavior time and time again, hiding behind the "this is dominance" excuse. The thing is, who else do I blame when somebody stopped me on my walk with Dime to say "oh, you walk your dog the Cesar way!" besides CM himself?

[Clare70]

I have 3 dogs, all northern breeds so I kind of feel like I have a pack.  Not one of them displays any aggressive or dominant behaviour over the others. Snow is best buddies with both of the other two and HArry and Maiya tolerate each other, does that make Snow the Alpha?

[MollyCharly]

haven't read the article but bookmarked it for later reading. To me, dominance and aggression are 2 different things. Dominance or submission is a nature thing, aggression is not. When there is more than 1 dog, there is a ranking, despite human like to think I am on top, the dogs are all below and all equal, they are not. There is always a hierarchy among the dogs, and being dominant one doesn't mean that it is an aggressive one. It is when 2 dogs meet and they want to compete for the 'dominant dog' position, it might turn into aggression.

I don't mind if my dog display dominant behaviours as long as it is not bullying the other dog, i.e. no humping no nipping etc. If the other dog is more submissive, a stable dominant dog will walk away once the communication is done. But if 2 want to fight for the title, then the interaction has to stop else it gets ugly.

having just helped raising a nest of 11 puppies for about 7 weeks, and seen them pursued steps towards dominance as young as 5 weeks old, it was really a learning experience. There was no aggression, it was all natural, puppies will try to figure out who is the strongest. In fact if you read about puppyhood, some very young pups already display 'nipple guarding' behaviour, i.e. not letting go of the milk bar even when they are done drinking, or bullying the runt of the nest. While I didn't see that, I do see water bowl guarding. By 6.5 weeks it was already obvious who are the one with strong characters, the mellow characters, and the one in the middle.

to us it is obvious that our older dog Charly is the mellow one, and puppy Molly will eventually be the 'top' dog if not already. As long as there is no bullying, it is ok with us.

[Jase]

This link has some details about the late Dr Yin and also has some really great training info. I will be honest and say I didn't really know much about her, but when our trainer started posting tributes about her passing that I started reading about her. I also noted many of the top trainers in Australia were all posting tributes, so it seems her influence was very wide spread and universally admired.

 

http://www.chicagonow.com/steve-dales-pet-world/2014/09/dr-sophia-yins-loss-is-profound/

[NOBELHOWLUC49]

 It is very interesting and enlightening, so much has been made of being the alpha that its is good to read that you don't have train by one up man ship all the time.  There are a few things I have picked up for Bella who is scared of other dogs until she gets to know them… 

 

Thanks Jase for posting this it has made things a lot clearer.  X  It is sad to hear this caring lady has died at such an early age with so much still to give. 

 

Some of the vids were not available 

 

 

[Jase]

 It is very interesting and enlightening, so much has been made of being the alpha that its is good to read that you don't have train by one up man ship all the time.  There are a few things I have picked up for Bella who is scared of other dogs until she gets to know them… 

 

Thanks Jase for posting this it has made things a lot clearer.  X  It is sad to hear this caring lady has died at such an early age with so much still to give. 

 

Some of the vids were not available 

 

 

I am glad you found some useful information.  Yeah, some of the vids don't work unfortunately.

 

... and yes it is very sad when someone this young decides they can't go on any more No doubt her legacy will live on. 

[robke]

I think that if you download the chapter by filling in your e-mail you do get links to the video after a few day. I need to check on my other pc to be sure tho...

[zannabianca]

In my opinion Millan or positive reinforcement trainers are right. 
Caesar Millan is rehabilitating dogs to reintroduce them in the society or they will just end up euthanized. But, then dog need education, they need to go to school to learn "how to be" or how we want them to be. So, I suppose a mix between dominance and positive reinforcement is the way. 

My basic Millan rules are: 1) I always enter in the door before him. 2) He cannot eat if I don't give him the order to do that. 3) I can always retrieve his food whenever i want 4) if I am sitting on couch he can join us only if invited. 5)He cannot enter in bathroom or bedroom 6) He has to sit every time we cross a road 7) If he wants to interact with dogs, he need first to stay down on the floor and let them come 8) I usually capesize iwark to distress the small dog and don't allow iwark to be dominant.

 

Then, there is the training, all list of commands, and I am training him to S&R and this ofc you need to do with positive reinforcement.

[Jase]

In my opinion Millan or positive reinforcement trainers are right. 

Caesar Millan is rehabilitating dogs to reintroduce them in the society or they will just end up euthanized. But, then dog need education, they need to go to school to learn "how to be" or how we want them to be. So, I suppose a mix between dominance and positive reinforcement is the way. 

My basic Millan rules are: 1) I always enter in the door before him. 2) He cannot eat if I don't give him the order to do that. 3) I can always retrieve his food whenever i want 4) if I am sitting on couch he can join us only if invited. 5)He cannot enter in bathroom or bedroom 6) He has to sit every time we cross a road 7) If he wants to interact with dogs, he need first to stay down on the floor and let them come 8) I usually capesize iwark to distress the small dog and don't allow iwark to be dominant.

 

Then, there is the training, all list of commands, and I am training him to S&R and this ofc you need to do with positive reinforcement.

 

No offence intended, but did you read the articles this thread was about?

[Kells xx]

I just love Victoria stillwell she is the saviour for dogs

[mydiamond]

In my opinion Millan or positive reinforcement trainers are right. 

Caesar Millan is rehabilitating dogs to reintroduce them in the society or they will just end up euthanized. But, then dog need education, they need to go to school to learn "how to be" or how we want them to be. So, I suppose a mix between dominance and positive reinforcement is the way. 

My basic Millan rules are: 1) I always enter in the door before him. 2) He cannot eat if I don't give him the order to do that. 3) I can always retrieve his food whenever i want 4) if I am sitting on couch he can join us only if invited. 5)He cannot enter in bathroom or bedroom 6) He has to sit every time we cross a road 7) If he wants to interact with dogs, he need first to stay down on the floor and let them come 8) I usually capesize iwark to distress the small dog and don't allow iwark to be dominant.

 

Then, there is the training, all list of commands, and I am training him to S&R and this ofc you need to do with positive reinforcement.

 

But we're not talking about positive reinforcement

[zannabianca]

"Dr Yin was a leader in dog training with the likes of Victoria Stilwell being a great admirer of her as are most of the positive reinforcement trainers these days."

 

So, I did not understand this line .

 

Regarding the article I disagree on several points. Here just few: 

 

> "Why do you think the dog chases the cat? Is he trying to "dominate" it?", I don't think he wanna dominate him, but or he plays or rather eat him. 

> Dominance is not a personality trait I disagree with that, in a pack of wolf for example the puppy that is dominant is visible from the very young age. in human too. 

> Having a stable rank does not mean the situation is peaceful, I disagree when everybody knows their role, everything works better  eg: Marines, Navy... or when a gang loses the boss of a certain area there is when start to see dead bodies around (for instance Andrangheta in Italy). So I strongly disagree with this sentence. 

> Wolves in the wild generally do not gain their high rank by fighting their way to the top: http://www.wolfhowl.org/behavior.phpthis article say rather opposite:" The pack alpha is deposed by the pack, which means forcefully removed form the pack or one wolf seeks to dominate another challenge is made and if the challenged Wolf does not submit a fight may result to determine which Wolf is superior. Repeatedly winning these contests result in a reputation within the pack, making the dominating Wolf the pack leader." 
> So, where the dominance-based (Millan) method is to get the dog to act aggressive and then show him that you’re the boss with an alpha-roll or collar tightening around the neck: Strongly disagree with this. Millan don't let the dog being aggressive. But, the dog is aggressive and he correct this. 

> Dogs are smart enough to distinguish which people can physically dominate or control them and which people cannot.: This is not be smart, dogs know if u are a pack leader or not. If you are not don't take a pitbull but a small size breed. Millan says always you have to take a dog that match your level of energy, stamina, and personality. If you own a pitbull but you are a chihuahua in the life, he will probably dominate you.