Shock Collars?

[Keeonah]

I have just read through this thread with great interest and have my own feelings which I shall not go into in detail. Just to outline which side of the fence I am sitting on though I will say that, IMHO, and this may upset a few people, no intention here at all, but, if you need to turn to things like shock collars then you shouldn't have dogs. The only pain I have ever inflicted on my huskies is the tone of my voice. My dogs all know when they are doing wrong and they know when they have done right just by the way I talk to them. Why do I need to inflict pain. 

 

Gary.

[Bec]

I have just read through this thread with great interest and have my own feelings which I shall not go into in detail. Just to outline which side of the fence I am sitting on though I will say that, IMHO, and this may upset a few people, no intention here at all, but, if you need to turn to things like shock collars then you shouldn't have dogs. The only pain I have ever inflicted on my huskies is the tone of my voice. My dogs all know when they are doing wrong and they know when they have done right just by the way I talk to them. Why do I need to inflict pain.

Gary.

So you've never vaccinated your dogs, or microchipped them?

How can you say "people who use shock collars shouldn't have dogs" and not intend to upset anyone?

I'm speaking only from personal experience using this tool and seeing it used on MANY dogs. Ive also put it on myself multiple times and i need to reiterate that it does not cause pain.

I am Not only talking about using e collars, but having the privilege of seeing different dogs every day - a range of breeds, behavioral problems, temperaments and different owners.

Try telling an owner bawling their eyes out in despair thinking their only option is having their dog PTS that all they need to train their dog is their voice.

[jmscott]

I think you are being deliberately obtuse. As a trainer, you should know better than assuming that pet training is as simple as voice commands or using methods as harsh as shock collars. You keep implying that. "Oh, Scruffy doesn't have to be euthanized! We can put an e-collar on him and all your problems will be solved!" 

 

Things aren't that simple.

 

Most of those on this forum are not trainers, and do not have the experience to use the tools that you recommend. It's fine and good to explain that they are a tool, but people will see your willingness to use them and assume that is what they need and are likely to buy one and attempt to learn it on their own. 

 

I NEVER mention e-collars without mentioning that they should never use them without the guidance of a trained professional during it's use. And there are so many other options that cannot be misused with as much detriment to the animal, shock collars are rarely anything your everyday pet owner would even have to consider. 

 

Why would anyone need to put their dog to sleep for lack of training? If the dog is not right for them, say so. Help them rehome the dog, contact rescues etc. If the dog has issues that severe, maybe it is best to put the dog to sleep. It is not all rainbows and butterflies.

[Jay]

I thought I would chime in here.  I think it was a good point brought up that tools such as these should only be used with the guidance of a professional dog trainer.  IMO I don't think someone should just throw a shock collar on their dog and think it will solve all of their problems.  While personally I would never use one, I am not going to judge someone that does.  I happen to use the training "pinch" collars, which are also controversial, however my dog trainer taught me how to use it properly. My trainer did tell me he would never sell a shock collar to someone coming into the store asking for it.   

 

If someone IS going to use one they should be made aware that 1) They should be taught by a professional on the proper use of one, and 2) A shock collar is not going to make their dog behave.  It takes time and patience to train a dog and there is no magic pill or collar that is going to speed up the process. 

[Keeonah]

So you've never vaccinated your dogs, or microchipped them?

How can you say "people who use shock collars shouldn't have dogs" and not intend to upset anyone?

I'm speaking only from personal experience using this tool and seeing it used on MANY dogs. Ive also put it on myself multiple times and i need to reiterate that it does not cause pain.

I am Not only talking about using e collars, but having the privilege of seeing different dogs every day - a range of breeds, behavioral problems, temperaments and different owners.

Try telling an owner bawling their eyes out in despair thinking their only option is having their dog PTS that all they need to train their dog is their voice.

I think that this is now getting to the point of being pathetic. Now judging between a vaccination and a shock collar. I would have thought the difference would be obvious. I still have my way of training and, whilst it may take longer, it's my way and I know it works. At this point we shall agree to disagree and, from my point of view, end of subject.

 

Gary..

[Jay]

Reminder from Elyse's post on this topic earlier, please keep it civil:

 

 

I would like to make an announcement before more replies are added:

As Al said, this is a very sensitive topic for some people. This thread MUST be kept civil, or it will be locked. 

[Removed #5]

I'm going to try to tread carefully here ... but since I've got the rep of being direct, well, I may not post this.

 

Any tool - bar none - can be misused, while I probably wouldn't use a hammer to murder someone it can be and has been done.  I wouldn't use a Dremel and patching compound to try to fix a cavity in my teeth, but some fool somewhere is probably desperate enough to be thinking about it.

 

Most of the things we use with our dogs are tools; a collar, a leash, a harness, a water bowl, food - these are all tools we regularly use in training.  Those who don't know how to use them properly can damage their pet.  You can use a leash to whip a dog, what he might learn from that probably isn't what you intended.  You can use the food bowl to get the results you're looking for, you might also starve the dog to death - probably not what you intended.

 

As a truck driver, I drove an 18 wheeler (well, some of the time) it was a tool to get "stuff" from here to there.  You might be able to get in the same rig and get your stuff from here to there, you might kill someone in the process of doing it. You might be one of those people who cuss every time they get near an 18 wheeler in their car ...  There are purposes for every tool that was ever made and using it properly and misusing it often cause results we don't want, didn't plan on and definitely can't afford.

 

We have people who run their dogs here - I'll respect them for that.  They have and use the tools they need to keep their dogs healthy and strong and safe.  Hopefully also keeping themselves safe at the same time.  We have trainers on here who are specialized in training other people (and their dogs) and I'll respect them for that.  But they also have specialized tools that they use - they know how to use them properly to achieve the results they desire. I don't run my dogs (except to let Avalanche run with me!) and I'm not a trainer (except for my dogs) so the tools that they use would probably be dangerous to me and my dogs in my hands.

 

On that note, we have some people (like me) who tend to be fairly direct in their responses - because, as the situation was presented, I might think I have a possible solution to the problem.  Sometimes people don't like that directness.  (( As I said earlier today, one of their members was describing a situation with an underweight pup that they were feeding extra and in the same message were describing the diarrhea the pup had.  Part of my response said that they were a part of the problem.  Thankfully they didn't get upset. )) 

 

We know that we have some touchy topics that get discussed - shock collars being one of them.  If I say "*I* would not use one on my dogs!" does not infer that either I or you are fools (or worse) if you do.  It simply says that "in my opinion, with my state of knowledge, *I* would probably cause more harm than good".  Notice "OPINION" all of us have one - and there's a saying somewhere that exposing it to the world can cause a stink - er, that is about opinions, isn't it?

 

We're all adults here (well, most of us, I think).  The fact that others might feel that "this tool" is appropriate in "this" situation does not reflect back to my thinking that in my situation it isn't. We each use those tools that we think are best for us and our dogs - whether we're pet owner, show man, trainer or prepping for the Iditarod. 

 

This is a topic that can be discussed - but we all have to act as adult (even if we're not) for each of us to learn from it.  I might learn that I could use a shock collar to get some specific results - but not if I'm not willing to listen to those who use and know how to use them,

 

Okay, I'm done Carry on!

[Bec]

I think you are being deliberately obtuse. As a trainer, you should know better than assuming that pet training is as simple as voice commands or using methods as harsh as shock collars. You keep implying that. "Oh, Scruffy doesn't have to be euthanized! We can put an e-collar on him and all your problems will be solved!"

Firstly, I was responding to the post I quoted which said all you need to train your dogs is your voice and if you use a shock collar you don't deserve to own dogs.

Secondly That's not what I am implying at all, the point I am making is that you can't write off a tool until you've had more experience with desperate owners who have dogs with real, often dangerous problems. It's not, as you say, that simple.

[quote

Most of those on this forum are not trainers, and do not have the experience to use the tools that you recommend. It's fine and good to explain that they are a tool, but people will see your willingness to use them and assume that is what they need and are likely to buy one and attempt to learn it on their own.

[Bec]

I think that this is now getting to the point of being pathetic. Now judging between a vaccination and a shock collar. I would have thought the difference would be obvious. I still have my way of training and, whilst it may take longer, it's my way and I know it works. At this point we shall agree to disagree and, from my point of view, end of subject.

Gary..

No judgment, just an example of where you are happy to inflict pain on your dogs if its of benefit to them

[huskywolfdog]

i dont agree with shock collars in any way they are a form if cruelty ! plan and simple! you wouldn't shock your child if he or her missed the potty would u so why do it to dogs !

[Removed #5]

i dont agree with shock collars in any way they are a form if cruelty ! plan and simple! you wouldn't shock your child if he or her missed the potty would u so why do it to dogs !

 

Kerry, that's not completely true.  When they first came out they were one size fits all and they'd shock the bejeesus out of you!  I shocked myself accidentally after trying one on a recalcitrant dog - it was NOT pleasant.  Since I didn't really know what I was doing, it also didn't work ...

 

Today's collars have several (often literally hundreds) of different levels.  Most now also have a beep that warns the dog -BEFORE- they get a shock and used correctly, the shock they receive should be attenuated to the behaviour.  My preference is to use other tools, but I think that in the hands of someone who needs to achieve results quickly and knows how to use it correctly it's like any other tool.

[Elyse]

One last warning: KEEP IT CIVIL, or else this thread will be locked.

Also, please refrain from swearing (saying 'shit' and etc). This is a family forum - that kind of language does not belong on here. I'm talking to everybody, not just specific people. 

 

I realize this is a sensitive topic and tensions run high, but please take a deep breath, and read over your post before you submit it. 
 

[daltor]

What's wrong with that? Genuine question. The dogs get to run off leash and enjoy freedom they otherwise wouldn't have had. It proofs their recall which can only be a good thing.

I obviously have no problem with remote training collars like I have no problem with many other tools, like anything it relies on the person to use it properly.

I have seen 100s of dogs trained with e collars and I use them myself. A good quality collar has around 100 levels of stim - modern e collar training uses the collar on the lowest perceivable level to the dog. It's not painful. It's not electrocuting them or anything like that. The lowest perceivable level is less aversive to the dog than the vibration level.

I've not met one person, even people who are hesitant or have heard bad things about e collars, be against the tool once being shown how to use it properly. In fact people think they are awesome especially once they see how quickly and easily it gets results and how well the dog responds to it.

Setting out to use one on a puppy as has been described in the OP is clearly not the right way to use the tool, but that doesn't make the tool itself bad. It's just a tool that needs the user to use it properly

 

"It's not painful. It's not electrocuting them or anything like that"  - so you've tried it yourself then?

 

.

[Removed #5]

"It's not painful. It's not electrocuting them or anything like that"  - so you've tried it yourself then?.

 

Jason, the reputation they had when they originally came out was very well deserved.  As I said earlier, they were "one size fits all" and most had only one level - "shock!!" or not!

Todays electronic collars are a long way from the one I shocked myself with - about 15 years ago - the better ones have many different levels so you can tune the device to the dog and the situation; most have "alarms" that sound before the shock.  While I haven't had the urge to use one lately, I've done a bit of reading after seeing the results that some people have gotten from the newer devices. 

As Bec has been trying to say, they are a tool - used by someone who knows what they're doing and how to use it properly they can be a good tool; used improperly by someone who doesn't know what they're doing then they can be harmful.

They are, however, ONLY A TOOL - if someone thinks that by sticking an ecollar on their dog they're going to have an immediately well behaved mutt then they fall into the category of someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

[CARRINGTON]

I would just like to chime in with my opinion and say that I wouldn't use a shock collar on Balto unless there were circumstances in which a trainer who I personally trusted had been working with and evaluating Balto had said this is one of the only options we have left ONLY after all other methods had been exhausted and the problems were not getting better or were getting worse and they were already bad to begin with. I will say that I am a user of a prong collar, I really did not want to use a prong on Balto but we took him to three different puppy classes and all had recommended that Balto use one, we didn't like the first two trainers but when we went to the last one they recommened it as Balto was pulling when walking and was pulling so hard that he would knock me down, we tried choke collars which he would just choke himself and it dug into him, we tried treats and positive reinforcements he just got extremely excited and would jump up on you and knock you over for the treats or just not care and pull you down, we tried front harness that did nothing but get Balto caught under our feet, we tried clicker training Balto could care less about the clickers and we tried one other collar I can't think of the name half-check or martingale (not sure) and  that had failed. I soon found out that I was expecting and my husband works two jobs and works his second 4 days a week so that leaves me to walk Balto 4 days a week. So they suggested a prong where they fitted him, showed us how to put it on, and showed us how to use it properly I think 3 times before they actually let us take it home with us (I mean three separate times), now Balto does NOT pull or try to pull we are slowly weaning him off the prong to where he does fine just on a collar but there are times that the prong needs to be on because he gets too excited and forgets such as going to the dog park, on a nature trail, or some place with a lot of people (he gets too excited and tries to pull you down). Although prong collars are controversial around here I am aware of that it is a tool that we had to use as a last resort as nothing else worked, so I think that if a shock collar is a last resort and someone is going to show you how to use it properly and it is only going to be a temporary training tool then I see nothing wrong with that. I would personally never choose to use one as we have other methods that work but what works for me doesn't work for every dog, kind of like how not every food or every toy, etc. doesn't work for every dog (not the best comparisons I know but I am just trying to point out that dogs like people are completely different with their own personalities and own ways of doing things and what is best or works for one dog may not be what is best or what will work for the next).

[Sparks]

It's cruel.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4

[Mobezilla]

i dont agree with shock collars in any way they are a form if cruelty ! plan and simple! you wouldn't shock your child if he or her missed the potty would u so why do it to dogs !

I'm kind of with Kerry on that one. My dogs are my kids.

 

If your kid was being a bully at the park, you would not put a shock collar on it and shock it until it stopped bullying other kids. If your kid ran away, you wouldn't give it warning beeps until it ran back. You control your child. You supervise your child. You make sure your child isn't near traffic or in harms way.

 

I do the same with my dogs, a 50ft leash or a fenced in area gives them as much freedom as a shock collar would. They are in sight, they are in control, there is no pain, only rewards for coming back to mom. Only praise for having fun. And most of all, no accidents can happen, because even with a shock collar on the highest prey driven dog can still chase a squirrel until they're out of range and lost. It only takes one time for anything to go horribly wrong, so I choose prevention before rather than shocking after.

[mydiamond]

I don't want to increase the tension, but guess I'll chime in. We don't have shock collars in Indo, but since the demand of American/British pet products increases rapidly I think I'd see some available in our local pet store sooner or later. I do believe that in the right hands it's an efficient tool but the thing is some people are just too dumb or lazy. It's almost like a mine (the explosive one). It's a good tool, invented to blow up boulders to help workers in the past but look what it's used for now. I do believe that some pet training tools are only despised because it's misunderstood, but the fact is a large number of people are using it for the wrong purpose. It does serve as a good tool in the right hands, but there are no rules that restrict dumb people from buying shock collars. Sure is sad how the idiocy of modern humanity ruined such a helpful tool. Of course, we can always educate the public and re-promote shock collars the way it's supposed to work but looking at how skeptical our society is, I'd choose to be rational and pick the easy way: which is, unfortunately, not supporting the use of such collars. 

[Bec]

"It's not painful. It's not electrocuting them or anything like that" - so you've tried it yourself then?

.

Yep, many times, and I've put them on people for them to test on themselves many times too

[Bec]

I think there are many tools more readily available for people to buy, that they then misuse, than shock collars. Check chains, head collars etc can all inflict injury on the dog in fact are more likely to inflict an actual injury than an e collar. E collars aren't readily available; many people don't know about them; and they are much more expensive than other tools that you can buy at the supermarket. They can be misused but no more likely than any other tool.

[daltor]

man, withstanding the positive support within the thread,  i'm still utterly applalled that someone would want to use one of these despicable gagets or tools as they are euphemistically called on one of their family members.

 

when i read - "properly trained to use" -  "inappropriate use" etc then the suggestion or prospect is, that abuse will most definitely occur - that is totally unexceptable.

 

in my book anyone using or thinking of using such things is not fit to own a dog.

 

they should be banned - please read here

[Bec]

Have you ever used one on yourself daltor?

It's important to remember EVERY tool needs to be used properly, any tool can be used to abuse a dog, I've seen people beating dogs with leashes before and I've seen injuries sustained from tools like head collars and check chains, even flat collars.

Are you really telling me that I'm not fit to own a dog?

[BlueWolf]

I think many people have a wrong idea what the device is suppose to do. It's not about punishing an animal, it's about training one which is a totally different thing. Because of this confusion I'm more inclined to be for a total ban of selling shock collars in pet shops and that they're only available through properly licensed trainers instead. That way you decrease the amount of people that have shock collars without properly understanding it.

[kaseyandandi]

Ok first of all I want to thank everyone for replying.  When I started this topic I didn't know much about shock collars and I certainly didn't realize how strongly people would react to them.  However, thanks to everyone's views (and some outside research of my own) I have a pretty good idea of where I stand on them.  Second, I would like to say I'm rather disappointed that some people who posted here have stooped to insults and deliberately upsetting, all encompassing statements especially after being asked several times by several people to keep it civil and to be polite. I went to a very liberal college and have been having more upsetting discussions than this since I was 16 and what I've found is that when it gets to that point it usually means one of three things: 1) a complete disrespect for the people in the discussion and their opinions, 2) using them to hide an ill-informed/thought out argument, 3) using them because you are insecure about your own stance.  I'm not saying these are the only three but it's usually one of them.  And if we are using all encompassing statements might I add that if you cannot respect and accept people's opinions then maybe you shouldn't talk to them?  As far as I'm concerned it all comes down to respect.

 

Anyway, since I started the post I guess I better share what I figured out... I don't think I'd ever use them myself, if for no other reason then there is no dog trainer around here I would trust to show me how to use it properly.  Though if I ever did feel the need to use one in the future I would definitely prefer one that vibrated or beeped.  I still don't think I'd be up for one that actually shocked.

[mydiamond]

well since @kaseyandandi has received the information she needs, and also because it's getting real heated up over here, I think it's time for this thread to be locked down.... Just don't want any arguments, this forum has always been so peaceful.