Anyone have any nice stories about friends, family's sibes having a litter.

[Guest snowdog]

Hi everyone, there is allways an up and down to everything, ive read all about the downs, but not heard any happy stories about friends or family or colleagues out there that have sibes who have had a happy, sucessfull birth, is there anyone here who has any positives or is the majority that you should never ever let your sibe have babies. And yes i would love to have my sibey babe have babies and yes that may be selfish, but i am undecided and trying to get a clear decider, so ive decided to do a poll, not on wether my sibe should have babies, as i would not decide that by a poll!!!!!!! I simply want to get an overall idea from experienced sibey babe owners, if all the boxes are ticked, and aeverything is in place, and a vet is envolved, and someone with experience is at hand, what would the opinions be, yes or no.

Just to get this clear, the outcome of this will not decide the outcome of my sibe having or not having babies, it is simply to get a clear picture for my own peice of mind, thanks again everyone, and i hope the more people that can will join in as this helps us to see a majority opinion,xx

[Bec]

Of course there are plenty of good stories, breeding can be fantastic.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't be aware of the downside. One of the breeders of one of the breeds I own has been breeding for thirty years and she has many amazing stories. She's had her share of horror stories, even with so much experience under her belt, sometimes there are things that even an experienced breeder cannot fix. She's had bitches die, entire litters die, sometimes for no reason that can be proven. That we can give you good stories is not the point.

The reason why I posted the other thread isn't to scare you out of breeding but to make sure anyone who considers breeding recognises that even experienced breeders can go through the 'horror' stories, it is all the more harder for inexperienced breeders who have no idea what they are doing when things go pear shaped.

Like I said in the last thread any time you decide to breed your dog, you are putting her at risk. Is it worth it to put her at risk for no real reason, apart from you think it would be nice to have your dogs have puppies? They aren't papered so you can't add anything to the breed. Even if it all goes well, all you would have contributed to the breed is more backyard bred Siberians and we have more than enough PTS in shelters world wide without needing to add more just for the sake of it.

If I had a bitch would I let her whelp a litter? Well, first I would have to ask myself why, because to put my dog through that it would have to be worth it. Would I be contributing something to the breed? If the dog's not papered properly then you can't add anything to the breed, and we have enough Siberians PTS without breeding for the sake of it. Is she a good example of the breed? Does she meet the breed standard? Have I put her in the show ring so I can have her looked at under a critical eye? Have I run her in harness to know if she has any working ability and can do the job she was bred for? Does she have an ideal temperament, does she have good hips, eyes and thyroid? Is she free from any other health issues, are her lines free from genetic diseases and nasty recessives? Have I researched her lines and the sires lines and met dogs from her lines, talked to breeders who breed those lines etc? There are so many factors I'd have to look at before even considering it.

[Guest snowdog]

Again i take your point with the upmost respect,but i would never look at my huskies, or other non papered huskies and think they have nothing to give society because they are not papered, and im sure there are many homes that want a companion not a companion that comes with a sheet of paper, it grevies me when peopl say you have nothing to offer to the breed,what about society as a whole, how do we know that any of these huskies are not kc'd, is there a system i place that guarantees that a kc puppy will always have a loving home that im unaware of? That is a sincere question as i am not sure as regards to that, once again thankyou, for all the advice you have put in your posts to everyone, xx

[Bec]

Again i take your point with the upmost respect,but i would never look at my huskies, or other non papered huskies and think they have nothing to give society because they are not papered, and im sure there are many homes that want a companion not a companion that comes with a sheet of paper, it grevies me when peopl say you have nothing to offer to the breed,what about society as a whole, how do we know that any of these huskies are not kc'd, is there a system i place that guarantees that a kc puppy will always have a loving home that im unaware of? That is a sincere question as i am not sure as regards to that, once again thankyou, for all the advice you have put in your posts to everyone, xx

It's not about the type of homes the dogs go to, or if they are loved as pets. It's about being able to contribute something to the breed. Without a pedigree no one can prove if your dogs even are Siberians. Once you breed with an unpapered dog their lines are lost and can never contribute to the breed.

There are many crossbreeds, rescue dogs, unpapered dogs that all contribute something to society as much loved pets. Contributing something to the breed is different, if you love and are passionate about your breed you will not breed unpapered dogs because they can never be part of the gene pool.

It's pedigree dogs that built our breed and made it what it is, it is pedigree dogs that will continue to make our breed what it is. Not because of the piece of paper but because it gives us a way to know what we are breeding and to record it.

[Guest snowdog]

how do we know that any of these huskies are not kc'd, is there a system i place that guarantees that a kc puppy will always have a loving home that im unaware of? That is a sincere question as i am not sure as regards to that, once again thankyou, for all the advice you have put in your posts to everyone, xx

[davidjk]

if i was breeding a husky their is no question i would be there, to me dogs are like a family member.

one of our cats had a litter, and it was fantastic, also for the kids, as they can ask questions about babies etc.

[Bec]

if i was breeding a husky their is no question i would be there, to me dogs are like a family member.

one of our cats had a litter, and it was fantastic, also for the kids, as they can ask questions about babies etc.

It's might be nice for kids until something goes wrong, how would you explain to your kids if (for example) the bitch ate one of her pups? Or one of the pups was stillborn, or deformed? I totally agree it can be a great experience, but I think 'because it's good for the kids' is an absolutely terrible reason to breed. They can see the miracle of life on youtube.

[Koda]

It's not about the type of homes the dogs go to, or if they are loved as pets. It's about being able to contribute something to the breed. Without a pedigree no one can prove if your dogs even are Siberians. Once you breed with an unpapered dog their lines are lost and can never contribute to the breed.

There are many crossbreeds, rescue dogs, unpapered dogs that all contribute something to society as much loved pets. Contributing something to the breed is different, if you love and are passionate about your breed you will not breed unpapered dogs because they can never be part of the gene pool.

It's pedigree dogs that built our breed and made it what it is, it is pedigree dogs that will continue to make our breed what it is. Not because of the piece of paper but because it gives us a way to know what we are breeding and to record it.

Not to be funny and not 1 little bit. But how do you think the pedigree's come about in the first place (unpapered) Siberian husky was breed by different dogs or wolfs if you wanna call it so they could out stand the weather so obviously they started off with no pedigree or kc papers?

[Guest snowdog]

Well then if Neeko and Neo are born from a kc registered bitch, then shouldnt there be a clause whereby the owner of such a pup can approach the kc. and discuss the pups being registered and aknowledged by the kc, as they are from a line of kc registered sibes, and it is a shame that it is only the breeder that can approach the k.c!

[Guest snowdog]

if i was breeding a husky their is no question i would be there, to me dogs are like a family member.

one of our cats had a litter, and it was fantastic, also for the kids, as they can ask questions about babies etc.

I also have had many animals through the years, guinea pigs, rabbitts chinchillas, cats, present throughout the birth as were two of my children, i had to break the sack on each and every kitten, and rub them to help start breathing ,as it was the mums first litter, not on the scale of a sibe, but an occasion thjat all will remember x

[Guest snowdog]

not to be funny and not 1 little bit. But how do you think the pedigree's come about in the first place (unpapered) siberian husky was breed by different dogs or wolfs if you wanna call it so they could out stand the weather so obviously they started off with no pedigree or kc papers?

thankyou!!!!! Excellent point.xx

[Bec]

Not to be funny and not 1 little bit. But how do you think the pedigree's come about in the first place (unpapered) Siberian husky was breed by different dogs or wolfs if you wanna call it so they could out stand the weather so obviously they started off with no pedigree or kc papers?

Once the breed was being developed records were kept of each dog, each mating.

For the same reason I can trace beagles back to a variety of hunting scent hounds, because even back then records were kept and breed standards were created.

Now that our breed has been established for centuries and pedigree dogs have built the breed into what it is today, what do you think breeding unpapered dogs will achieve? What do you think they will contribute to the breed? We have no way of knowing where the came from, if they are even purebred, what their lines are - so we can't research into their gene pool. We can't keep records, we can't ensure we are breeding healthy dogs, because we have no idea of what is in front of us. How do you think our breed was created into what it is today, if no records were kept or no breed standard designed?

Well then if Neeko and Neo are born from a kc registered bitch, then shouldnt there be a clause whereby the owner of such a pup can approach the kc. and discuss the pups being registered and aknowledged by the kc, as they are from a line of kc registered sibes, and it is a shame that it is only the breeder that can approach the k.c!

Why? As a breeder, who takes their breed seriously and devotes their life to breeding the best Siberian Husky they can, would you want any pet owner who feels like it deciding to breed from your lines because they want to? And being able to register pups, despite not having your ok, in your kennel name? Breeders sell dogs on limited papers for a reason, it is up to them to decide what pups should be bred from under their prefix not the puppy buyers who have bought unpapered dogs or dogs with limited pedigrees.

If you buy a dog with a limited pedigree and want to breed it, you should approach the breeder and ask them to change the pup over to main papers, or do your research, find a breed mentor and buy a pup to show, work and breed from the get go.

[Koda]

I also think every female dog should be entitled to at least 1 litter cause its a natural thing, And if you was to get them spayed after they had a litter you'd find that it calms your dog down, I think if your willing to do the hard work by looking after the dog during the pregnancie that why should'nt you? And also try to find the best homes aswell so they dont end up in kennels (papers dont mean anything)You know a full breed dog to a cross.

[Guest snowdog]

Still came from wolves without papers!

[Guest snowdog]

i also think every female dog should be entitled to at least 1 litter cause its a natural thing, and if you was to get them spayed after they had a litter you'd find that it calms your dog down, i think if your willing to do the hard work by looking after the dog during the pregnancie that why should'nt you? And also try to find the best homes aswell so they dont end up in kennels (papers dont mean anything)you know a full breed dog to a cross.

also another excellent point, ditto all of above, and who decided that the kc had the right to judge anyone wanting to breed their!!!!! Sibes, ultimatly it is the owners decision and right, to take a responsible approach to the pregnancy and birth of their sibe, as long as all health checks are in place and a vet is onboard and an experienced dog breeder is to hand, i do not see why they dont have a right to let their sibe have a litter, x

[Koda]

Once the breed was being developed records were kept of each dog, each mating.

For the same reason I can trace beagles back to a variety of hunting scent hounds, because even back then records were kept and breed standards were created.

Now that our breed has been established for centuries and pedigree dogs have built the breed into what it is today, what do you think breeding unpapered dogs will achieve? What do you think they will contribute to the breed? We have no way of knowing where the came from, if they are even purebred, what their lines are - so we can't research into their gene pool. We can't keep records, we can't ensure we are breeding healthy dogs, because we have no idea of what is in front of us. How do you think our breed was created into what it is today, if no records were kept or no breed standard designed?

Why? As a breeder, who takes their breed seriously and devotes their life to breeding the best Siberian Husky they can, would you want any pet owner who feels like it deciding to breed from your lines because they want to? And being able to register pups, despite not having your ok, in your kennel name? Breeders sell dogs on limited papers for a reason, it is up to them to decide what pups should be bred from under their prefix not the puppy buyers who have bought unpapered dogs or dogs with limited pedigrees.

If you buy a dog with a limited pedigree and want to breed it, you should approach the breeder and ask them to change the pup over to main papers, or do your research, find a breed mentor and buy a pup to show, work and breed from the get go.

Yea but your basicly saying that it aint right? Why aint it. You want to breed a dog then do it! The only thing i dont agree on is cross breeding. But if you was to have 2 sibe's then why not? its like i was enquireing about a female husky but quess what? it had endorsements on its papers what the fuck is all that about? 700 hundred they wonted with endorsments on the papers thats a joke when i could get a unpaper sibe for 450 to 500. I know which 1 i'd have

[Bec]

I also think every female dog should be entitled to at least 1 litter cause its a natural thing, And if you was to get them spayed after they had a litter you'd find that it calms your dog down, I think if your willing to do the hard work by looking after the dog during the pregnancie that why should'nt you? And also try to find the best homes aswell so they dont end up in kennels (papers dont mean anything)You know a full breed dog to a cross.

Sorry but that is a total old wives tale, I actually am in shock that people still think this way :eek:

Having a litter makes NO difference to the temperament of your dog whatsoever. There is NO difference

You should go to the pound and sit with the Siberians there who have come from breeders just like you, who don't give a crap about breeding good dogs but just do it for the sake of it, while they are put to sleep because there are no homes out there for them - then come back and tell me that everyone should breed from their bitches.

Without papers you cannot prove if your dog is purebred or not - that's a fact. I guess you don't see the importance in researching your dogs lines or knowing where they have come from, seeing as papers don't mean anything? I guess hip scoring and PRA testing isn't important either?

Still came from wolves without papers!

Do you know how far removed dogs are from wolves? Do you actually think Siberians were developed directly from wolves?

also another excellent point, ditto all of above, and who decided that the kc had the right to judge anyone wanting to breed their!!!!! Sibes, ultimatly it is the owners decision and right, to take a responsible approach to the pregnancy and birth of their sibe, as long as all health checks are in place and a vet is onboard and an experienced dog breeder is to hand, i do not see why they dont have a right to let their sibe have a litter, x

Good luck finding any reputable Siberian breeder who will support you backyard breeding your dogs They actually care about the breed and care about contributing something to the gene pool, instead of adding more unpapered dogs to the masses that are PTS each year.

[Bec]

Yea but your basicly saying that it aint right? Why aint it. You want to breed a dog then do it! The only thing i dont agree on is cross breeding. But if you was to have 2 sibe's then why not? its like i was enquireing about a female husky but quess what? it had endorsements on its papers what the fuck is all that about? 700 hundred they wonted with endorsments on the papers thats a joke when i could get a unpaper sibe for 450 to 500. I know which 1 i'd have

I know what I'd have too. I will never support backyard breeders, I support the breeders who love and are passionate about our breed and actually contribute something to it. I paid $800 for one of my bitches, who came on limited register pedigree papers (no breeding nor showing) - I bought her because she came from a great breeder who cares about the breed and dedicates her life to breeding excellent dogs. I probably could have bought a cheaper dog from a backyard breeder, without the papers, and ended up like my friend who bought her two bitches from a BYBers - no papers - they have both had serious health problems and had several surgeries to correct these issues within the first two years of their lives... but who cares, right? They were cheaper than pedigrees.

Sure, you have two Sibes, you should breed them! Who cares if they have hip displaysia or have recesssive PRA in their lines - which, by the way, you could never know without a pedigree to trace back into your lines.

[Koda]

Sorry but that is a total old wives tale, I actually am in shock that people still think this way :eek:

Having a litter makes NO difference to the temperament of your dog whatsoever. There is NO difference

You should go to the pound and sit with the Siberians there who have come from breeders just like you, who don't give a crap about breeding good dogs but just do it for the sake of it, while they are put to sleep because there are no homes out there for them - then come back and tell me that everyone should breed from their bitches.

Without papers you cannot prove if your dog is purebred or not - that's a fact. I guess you don't see the importance in researching your dogs lines or knowing where they have come from, seeing as papers don't mean anything? I guess hip scoring and PRA testing isn't important either?

Do you know how far removed dogs are from wolves? Do you actually think Siberians were developed directly from wolves?

Good luck finding any reputable Siberian breeder who will support you backyard breeding your dogs They actually care about the breed and care about contributing something to the gene pool, instead of adding more unpapered dogs to the masses that are PTS each year.

how's about you go sit in a kennel do you not relize that also pedigree dogs also end up in the kennel but lost the papers on the way? so that makes them un papered doesnt it. like i said would never cross breed cause i dont agree with it that is just wrong but if you have 2 sibe's then why not you can tell if there a full husky or not.

[Koda]

I know what I'd have too. I will never support backyard breeders, I support the breeders who love and are passionate about our breed and actually contribute something to it. I paid $800 for one of my bitches, who came on limited register pedigree papers (no breeding nor showing) - I bought her because she came from a great breeder who cares about the breed and dedicates her life to breeding excellent dogs. I probably could have bought a cheaper dog from a backyard breeder, without the papers, and ended up like my friend who bought her two bitches from a BYBers - no papers - they have both had serious health problems and had several surgeries to correct these issues within the first two years of their lives... but who cares, right? They were cheaper than pedigrees.

Sure, you have two Sibes, you should breed them! Who cares if they have hip displaysia or have recesssive PRA in their lines - which, by the way, you could never know without a pedigree to trace back into your lines.

not saying i dont care about the breed, I said be for if your willing to put in the hard work then why not? i even said get them spayed after they had there first litter, Farm breeder breed there dogs for the fun off it like 2 litters in a year till there knackered and cant walk. So dont call me a farm breed. I never do that! like i said every female deserve's 1 litter! who are you to say they cant!

[Bec]

how's about you go sit in a kennel do you not relize that also pedigree dogs also end up in the kennel but lost the papers on the way? so that makes them un papered doesnt it. like i said would never cross breed cause i dont agree with it that is just wrong but if you have 2 sibe's then why not you can tell if there a full husky or not.

The vast majority of Siberians in rescue are unpapered.

So, in your opinion, it's not important at all to know where your dogs came from, if there are any recessives in their lines, if they are related?

And you can tell, every time, when a dog is purebred or not?

Would you say both of these pups are purebred?

[Bec]

not saying i dont care about the breed, I said be for if your willing to put in the hard work then why not? i even said get them spayed after they had there first litter, Farm breeder breed there dogs for the fun off it like 2 litters in a year till there knackered and cant walk. So dont call me a farm breed. I never do that! like i said every female deserve's 1 litter! who are you to say they cant!

Sure, every female deserves a litter, even if they die whelping the pups.

[Guest snowdog]

QUOTE

You should go to the pound and sit with the Siberians there who have come from breeders just like you, who don't give a crap about breeding good dogs but just do it for the sake of it, while they are put to sleep because there are no homes out there for them - then come back and tell me that everyone should breed from their bitches.)

ANSWER

did you read my post about my vet , and health checks , and price lists, and solicitors, and do kc registered pups end up in the pound, uuur yup! and dont tell me that kc papers arnt fiddled by dodgy breeders cos they are and i have first hand esperience in people swapping similar aged dogs non kc'd and keeping them selling on the non kc pup and keeping the other one illegally, so i wouldnttrust the paper its written on, ive had this happen to me first hand so i know what goes on. and for all its life now that none kc dog will be written in history as registered!!!!!

[raindog]

Well then if Neeko and Neo are born from a kc registered bitch, then shouldnt there be a clause whereby the owner of such a pup can approach the kc. and discuss the pups being registered and aknowledged by the kc, as they are from a line of kc registered sibes, and it is a shame that it is only the breeder that can approach the k.c!

No, because there might be very good (or bad) reasons why the breeder did not register the litter. The most usual scenario when this happens is that the breeder has bred the litter against the wishes of the breeder. When the breeder registers a litter, he/she can endorse each pup's registration to the effect that any pups bred from the dog/bitch cannot be KC registered. This is known as a "breeding ban" although technically it is only a registration ban and unscrupulous individuals can still breed from the dog, they just can't register any of the puppies. Most breeders will lift these conditions if the following conditions are met:

1. The dog/bitch is of sufficently high quality to be bred from (usually assessed in the showring and in harness on the trail).

2. The dog/bitch has had all the appropriate health tests with good/satisfactory results.

3. The dog/bitch to which the dog/bitch is to be bred has also satisfied points 1 & 2.

4. The breeder feels that the dog/bitch's owner is sufficiently ethical, responsible and able to cope with all the ramifications of having a litter.

If the breeder does not feel these conditions have been adequately met then they will not and should not lift the bans and so if the owner goes ahead and breeds, the litter cannot be registered.

On the question of KC registration, it is true that KC registration by itself is not a guarantee of anything much, BUT, it is one of several crucial factors in determining whether a dog/bitch should be bred from. I apologise to those who have seen the following many times before, but it is important. This is the advice we give to people looking for a good, ethical breeder:

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  Are the dogs being bred Kennel Club registered and are the pups KC registered. KC registration is not a 100% guarantee, but it is a strong indication that the pedigree of your dog is accurate and honest. If the mother, father or the pups are not KC registered, beat a hasty retreat at that point. Note: there are other dog registration organisations in the UK but their registrations are not worth the paper they are written on. If it ain’t KC, don’t buy it!
  
  
• 
  
  
• Do the breeders work and/or show their dogs? If not, why are they breeding? Most good breeders breed litters to improve their teams either for the showring, the trail or both. If they are doing neither you have to assume that their main motivation is cash! - not the best reason for breeding dogs
  
  
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• How easy do they make it to buy a puppy? If you don’t get the (friendly) third degree about your knowledge of the breed, the security of your house and garden etc, it is unlikely that they are a responsible breeder. Will they let you see the mum and dad and all their other dogs? You can learn a lot from the condition and temperament of the adult dogs in a breeder’s kennel. More often than not the breeder will have gone “outside†for a mating, so they won’t actually own the stud dog, but they should be able to show you pictures, pedigree and health certification for the dad as well as the mum.
  
  
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• Have the appropriate health tests for the breed been carried out on the parents? Although as a breed, the Siberian Husky is very healthy, all responsible breeders will screen their dogs for hereditary defects. In particular they should be checked for hip and eye defects. Ask if the parents of the puppies are tested and ask to see the results.
  
  
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• How old is the mother and how many litters has she had? No bitch should be bred before the age of 2 years or after the age of 7. There should be at least a year between successive matings and no bitch should have more than three litters in her lifetime.
  
  
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• Was the litter planned or was it “accidentalâ€Â? If you are told that the litter can’t be registered because the mating was “accidental†and the bitch was too young/too old etc etc etc, walk away. Post mating contraceptive injections have been available from vets for years and there is no excuse for “accidental†matings. It is surprising how many bad breeders have “accidental†mating after “ accidental†mating.
  
  
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• Will the breeder expect you to sign a contract of sale in which you undertake to return the dog direct to the breeder if for any reason you cannot keep it, and in which you acknowledge that the dog has breeding/export restrictions on its KC papers and cannot be bred from without agreement from the breeder? All responsible breeders will insist upon this for the protection of the dog.
  
  

A good, ethical, responsible breeder will be able to tick every single one of those boxes. If they don't, they aren't a good breeder as far as I am concerned.

The proof of the pudding is in the bottom of the bowl after the meal - In simple statistical terms, dogs bred by breeders who fulfill all these requirements, rarely, if ever come into rescue. The less of these boxes a breeder ticks, the more likely are their dogs to end up unwanted. It really is that simple.

We have owned Siberian Huskies for over 15 years and have been interested in them for 20 (we did an awful lot of research before buying our first pup in 1994). We are also occasional breeders and I would say that unless you are a completely uncaring fool, even the easiest of litters is incredibly hard work both physically and emotionally. Like most people who have bred over a period of time, we have experienced both joy and tragedy. We had one litter 4 years ago where the mum had to have a caesarian, and when she recovered consciousness, she refused to accept the pups and wanted to kill and eat them. As a result we had the hardest two weeks of our lives - hand-feeding the pups every hour for the first 72 hours (as well as doing the mum's job of cleaning them and stimulating their pee and pooh reflexes) then every two hours for a further week etc etc. Despite the constant care, we lost two of the pups which were just not strong enough to make it without their mum's input - including the one we had earmarked to keep for ourselves). By the end of the first four weeks when they had begun to eat solid food, we were emotionally and physically shattered. The tragedy didn't end there because one of the pups went on to develop nutritional cataracts and nearly went blind as a result. We didn't know it at the time, but hand-reared Siberian pups need an argenine supplement which is not present in most commercial puppy milk replacements. We only discovered this little known fact after the poor pup had been diagnosed.

Our current litter (one week old) could have suffered a similar fate as the bitch had to have a caesar and the pups were born a week prematurely. This time, however when the bitch rejected the pups, we were prepared and not only did we have argenine at the ready, but we were also lucky enough to have a friend whose bitch had four week old pups and was able to act as foster mum. Another benefit of many years experience is that we knew at 8 weeks that something was not quite right with the bitch. Less experienced owners might have ignored this, but we took her straight to the vet for a check-up and the vet did the Caesarian there and then. If we had waited another day, we would probably have lost all the pups and possibly the bitch as well as she was suffering from Toxoplasmosis.

These kind of problems don't happen often, but you need to be prepared for both the physical/emotional stress and the cost of vet fees.

So, even after 15 years we are still learning every day and while we would never discourage people from breeding, we would encourage them to do it 100% properly .

i would never look at my huskies, or other non papered huskies and think they have nothing to give society because they are not papered, and im sure there are many homes that want a companion not a companion that comes with a sheet of paper, it grevies me when peopl say you have nothing to offer to the breed

No-one is saying that unpapered dogs don't make wonderful pets. What we are saying is that if someone is breeding - whether for pets, show or working (our dogs are all three) , why should "pet" dogs be second class or lower quality than the others. As far as I am concerned, if someone is not breeding the best quality dogs they possibly can, they shouldn't be breeding.

Mick

PS - Sorry about the epic!!

[Koda]

Sure, every female deserves a litter, even if they die whelping the pups.

That could happen to any Bitch? Even a Kc reg and pedigree papered.