Prong collars

[siberian_wolf]

ok can see parts getting heated.

From reading the posts I'm coming to this conclusion...

We all have our own views, that's obvious, the world wouldn't turn if we all agreed with each other. These differences in views are why there are so many different training tools and techniques around as like us, all dogs are different.

Every tool has their advantages and also their disadvantages and when you have a particular tool you prefer it can be hard to really think about the disadvantages of that particular tool.

One thing I find very clear is that every tool, unless not used at all, can cause some sort of harm to any dog especially when not used correctly with a firm training program and the correct guidance is given and taken in by the owner, fitted correctly.

We all have our own preference but I think even though we may not like a particular tool, it doesn't mean we should slate that tool as for others they could have seen and worked miracles with that same tool

[SA DA KA]

[PoBD]

Huh? Not sure why you aimed this at me? I work for a dog training company and we use and sell prong collars. I have nothing against the tool.

Didn't aim it at you. Notice its sent from my phone it didn't quote what I wanted.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[SA DA KA]

Bec, you probably educate people that you sell prong collars to. WYDWL have seen dogs with necks in terrible states from hundreds of US owners using prongs inappropriately, they are very much a common practice tool in the US and some poor dogs have been left with marks and punctures to the neck. I have used a prong collar on myself and my instant thought was, I could not use that on my little girl, I don't find there is a need to. I didn't pull the collar particularly tight but it left indent marks on myself and that is enough for me to say I wouldn't use it on my dog. We're bound to disagree no matter how we discuss this as I am anti-prong and am supporting the Kennel Clubs campaign in the UK to get them banned apart from in necessary cases for working dogs like search and rescue and army dogs (but even then I still don't like the idea of them).

Aleu is loose leash walked on her collar because she is trained to do so, but I do find the harnesses help to get some people to that stage.

Stacey xxx

[MENTION=2703]Staceybob[/MENTION]

We wanted to click "Thank you for your post" but hit like, but we also like it

[Removed #1]

What kind of neck injuries have you seen caused by prong collars? I am genuinely interested as we have sold 1000s of prong collars and have never had neck injuries occur. We've seen skin irritation occur from dogs wearing anti pull harnesses, and in testing we haven't seen results that are as effective or better than results we get from teaching LLW with flat or martingale collars. Good to hear you've had good results though.

Most neck injuries cited are from abusing the collar imo. It takes months for a collar to become embedded in a dogs neck, prong or otherwise and is a blatent abuse of tool and technique. Fox did develop an allergy to nickel. We ordered a new one from a rather reputable company made out of a different metal that was supposed to be stronger and take care of the allergy issue. It's a pinkish/orange sort of tint to the metal. It was horrible, One of the prongs was defective and broke while in use during a moment that wasn't a particularly urgent bit of pulling. Never bothered to contact the manufacturer because it seemed to be more trouble than it was worth.

We actually left the prongs at home for our vacation trip and have been alternating between their x-backs, the WYDWL harnesses (there is some rubbing that I'm not liking and really when they get excited we've gone back to the kangaroo hop) and their ordinary collars. We've had an increase in loose leash walking, but more often than not it's when we toss the x-backs on em, let em get some pulling and running in, and then switch the lead to their flat collars.

[Bec]

Storm is a very strong puller, very strong willed. Stacey is going to come visit us as soon as shes back from ipswich to help me re-train Storm into not pulling me as much. Without prong, choke or electric collars.

Thats great and I hope you have much success.

My training method of choice doesn't involve any physical corrections but that doesn't work for everyone. Dog trainers need to be able to train owners of all different skill level who have dogs of all different types of temperaments, behaviour problems and psychological damage. Anti pull harnesses do not work on all dogs, if they tested as a super tool we would have no hesitation in using them.

What would you, stacey, SA DA KA, Siberian Wolf and anyone else do if someone came to you for training and you had two hours to show them their dog can be changed or they would have it PTS. You fit it with a WYDWL harness and it doesn't work. The owner gets even more upset and discouraged because you've put a tool on their dog and it hasn't worked. I'm interested to hear you're thoughts

Edited July 1, 2012 by Bec

[Bec]

I can see where you're coming from but when I used a flat cushioned webbing collar I feel no discomfort. When I wore a prong collar, I felt instant discomfort and had the marks to show the discomfort afterwards. Not for me. I train with minimal corrections to avoid any injuries to the dog.

Stacey xxx

Of course prong collars cause discomfort, that is what they are designed to do. But Anti pull harnesses also cause discomfort. We also train with minimal corrections, what kind of trainer would intentionally over correct a dog?

[joshmp5]

The fact that your dog is a puller, tells you that moving forward is something he wants to do very much. Moving forward can be used as a reinforcer! So use the opportunity to move forward the same way you use any other reinforcer like food or toys or opportunity to play. If your dog will give you the behavior you want (slack leash) he gets the reinforcer (move forward). If he does not give you the behavior you want (he pulls on the leash) he does not get the reinforcer (you stand still and keep him from going forward.) Follow these steps:

As long as your dog is with you in any position that you find acceptable, keep moseing around. The rules of this game are, so long as he is not pulling. He gets to walk.

If the leash gets tight, stop moving. Don't give your dog any verbal or physical que or correction other than your cessation of motion. Be like a rock and stand there. You have to make a commitment never to move forward if your dog is pulling on the leash. The reinforcer is the opportunity to move forward. You give that reinforcer to your dog in exchange for keeping the leash loose. The instant there is any slack in the leash, move forward. Make it very obvious to your dog what the key is to forward movement. So long as you are consistent, it will not take long at all for him to figure out that pulling does not pay.

The rules of this game are simple - keep the leash loose, and you get to move forward. Tighten the leash and I will stop until you turn around and put some slack in the leash.

We hope this helps you out in getting the results you desire and we do not believe in choke chains nor prong collars. To us they are "Mid-evil."

Storm pulls a lot as well. But, I would never use a prong with him.. I've used the same thought process as above. If he wants to move foward, he can as long as the leash is slack and we're moving at my pace. If the leash is not slack, i just stop and wait. Itt works very well for him.

[Staceybob]

Of course prong collars cause discomfort, that is what they are designed to do. But Anti pull harnesses also cause discomfort. We also train with minimal corrections, what kind of trainer would intentionally over correct a dog?

We now add padding to the belly strap to avoid discomfort, besides natural rubbing from a harness, I'd like to see why else you think a WYDWL causes discomfort that would even remotely relate to the prong collar. The prong collar is a correction tool, the WYDWL is a leading tool, it doesn't tighten to correct, you simply lead from the front.

What would you, stacey, SA DA KA, Siberian Wolf and anyone else do if someone came to you for training and you had two hours to show them their dog can be changed or they would have it PTS. You fit it with a WYDWL harness and it doesn't work. The owner gets even more upset and discouraged because you've put a tool on their dog and it hasn't worked. I'm interested to hear you're thoughts

I'd do all the appropriate methods I have to get them back on track. I've never been in a position where one of my methods hasn't worked, if I ended up in that position, then I'd recommend them to some one with further experience, but I wouldn't go to tools like the prongs, it's completely against what I stand for.

Stacey xxx

[AttilaVikingsDemon]

My opinion is that first off, a breed of canine is happy doing what they were bred to do, that being said, Siberians are bred to pull, and pull hard. Its their nature and it makes them happy. Our boy Czar Demon has had no formal training because we live in the boonies so to speak and he pulls like a freight train because I have not desired to take that away because I would like ot get him used ot pulling so we can scooter together to burn away that Husky energy, plus by pulling me up and down hills as he is currently doing, myself at 287 lbs wears him out as if we'd walked for miles and miles when we only walk 2 1/2 per day, some days like these past 4 days he has not walked due to the heat and humidity. I do believe that tools can be abused by ignorant people, but some tools may be tossed away for other training techniques for people who want Huskys and don't want them to pull. Our neighbor uses a prong collar on a 4 month black lab and he yanks poor Duke with it to where only after 2 weeks of abusing this tool which I don't care for, Duke is wheezing and coughs and hacks from it. I would just personally rather invest my time in another method of training to avert using the prong collar is all. I'm not here to change anyone's mind who's mind is already made up, you're simply going to do what you are going to do and nothing someone will say can change that after 3 pages, but we can all put our opinions and attest to personal experience and let people make up their own minds and learn from it, after all, we are here not only to educate people new to the breed, but also to learn ourselves. We can all learn something new everyday, then it has been a good day and we will have become wiser for it.

[Sid_Wolf]

I've gone through all the stages of how to let them walk with my 3, mainly kira as i've had her longest...

Halti - not good pulled into her eyes

'She's a sibe, she's bred to pull, so i'll just let her pull' - that got annoying and tiring very quickly! lol

Canny Collar - Probably the best one available in pet shops IMO but soon learnt to pull through it (my fault - no training)

Prong collar - Does work, mine seemed to accept them more than the halti/canny, but I stopped using them after a while, no real reason other than tainting the fur!

WYDWL - it does work, I personally disliked the fit across the shoulders, it's not really the style of harness I like, but thats just personal preferance, but yes it worked very well

Indi-Dog headcollar - also works, I actually stopped using the wydwl when I started making these, still use them sometimes

The only thing that actually works is TRAINING. Thats why all the 'tools' I was trying stopped working after a couple of weeks, I was looking for a quick fix. Once I actually started working with the dogs rather than expecting the tools to do all the work I really started seeing results.

Kira, Diesel & Grey now all walk loose lead most of the time, on nothing more than a loose half check Keyusha wears a regular harness for all walks as she may have gloucoma so I dont want any pressure on her neck or around her face.

[Prinzess]

just thought I would intervene and say I'm finding this conversation very interesting to read peoples different views on walking training tools and for it to be going so well rather than it being more like a heated argument

I agree, would hate to see this as a heated argument also

[Bec]

We now add padding to the belly strap to avoid discomfort, besides natural rubbing from a harness, I'd like to see why else you think a WYDWL causes discomfort that would even remotely relate to the prong collar. The prong collar is a correction tool, the WYDWL is a leading tool, it doesn't tighten to correct, you simply lead from the front.

How does the harness work if the dog experiences no discomfort or pressure? Anti-pull harnesses do give a correction, otherwise they wouldn’t work as the dog would have no reason to change it’s behaviour

I'd do all the appropriate methods I have to get them back on track. I've never been in a position where one of my methods hasn't worked, if I ended up in that position, then I'd recommend them to some one with further experience, but I wouldn't go to tools like the prongs, it's completely against what I stand for.

Ok, though you might find this is an issue you face the more dogs you train. All trainers end up with dogs that challenge what they think they know about training at some point.

Just to clarify, my point isn’t about whether or not a prong collar is used. We see many dogs each week that don’t have prong collars fitted, it’s just there as an option when required. It’s the judgement given to trainers and owners who do use them that I find sad and annoying. How many of the people in this thread work with dogs and owners every day? As a trainer the priority should be about getting results for the dog and owner you are working with. Who cares if a trainer helps an owner achieve those results with a prong collar or anti pull harness as long as it works for them how can we judge and who are we to say that it’s wrong. I have nothing again people who gain success with anti pull harnesses, we don’t use them ourselves because we get results without them by using flat collars and martingales but if an owner uses one and it works well for them and their dog then great!

You said before Stacey that you have fitted a prong collar to yourself and didn’t like the discomfort you felt so wouldn’t use one on a dog for that reason - but when did training dogs become about what WE think is best and what we feel a dog should feel? We don’t decide what a dog finds aversive or uncomfortable, the dog is the one that makes that decision. Every dog is different in temperament and it’s level of resistance to training, that is why there is no one tool that works on all dogs. I think the dog world has enough politics already without adding to it by having trainers campaigning against other trainers. I always wonder why other trainers feel the need to run down and petition and protest against each other. Why aren’t they focusing on training dogs and getting great results? If their methods are that great, the results will speak for themselves, without them needing to run down other trainers and methods. You should 'stand for' helping owners and dogs and if other trainers achieve that with methods different to yours what is wrong with that?

[Bob & Juno]

Gezzz, once again hate , like , its always the same , the ones that HATE the prong collar are the Owners or Trainers that have never used it, but then you have the ones...... Like ME , that has great outcome using the prong, I work six days a week, I have a short great time with my dog each morning and night, I saved my dog from a shelter and I'm sure she would have been put to sleep because she was so out of control, not good with kids, or other dogs, but using the prong has helped in all of areas that I needed help, now she plays with kids, dogs, and has a great life with me ..... I just wish when people make comments about tools that they are the ones they have tried or are using, and not just trashing everything else that they have no idea about............also Juno walks Now with a loose leash, still use the prong to keep her safe and other dogs safe, a lot try to jump at her and I Have no worries about her going after them. last thing I never have seen any dog hurt by a prong collar, holes cuts or whatever, and my daughter is a trainer and they do use the prong on dogs that need that extra help. if one thing would make me stop using this site would be how people trash things they dont try,....just had to vent I guess

[Prinzess]

Gezzz, once again hate , like , its always the same , the ones that HATE the prong collar are the Owners or Trainers that have never used it, but then you have the ones...... Like ME , that has great outcome using the prong, I work six days a week, I have a short great time with my dog each morning and night, I saved my dog from a shelter and I'm sure she would have been put to sleep because she was so out of control, not good with kids, or other dogs, but using the prong has helped in all of areas that I needed help, now she plays with kids, dogs, and has a great life with me ..... I just wish when people make comments about tools that they are the ones they have tried or are using, and not just trashing everything else that they have no idea about............also Juno walks Now with a loose leash, still use the prong to keep her safe and other dogs safe, a lot try to jump at her and I Have no worries about her going after them. last thing I never have seen any dog hurt by a prong collar, holes cuts or whatever, and my daughter is a trainer and they do use the prong on dogs that need that extra help. if one thing would make me stop using this site would be how people trash things they dont try,....just had to vent I guess

Hello Bob

I understand you needed to vent but seriously you would consider leaving a site due to some of us not liking the prong collar because some of us have not tried it. I hope you do not leave because of this.

Sorry but I think people have the right to choose whether we disagree with their choice or not that is what makes us all different. Boring world otherwise

I personally have not tried eating brains or heart, some people love eating them, I choose not too because I just could not imagine eating that type of product. I do not need to eat it to say I disagree or agree with it. Same with the Prong collar. I just wouldn't use it.

However I have enough respect to say if you choose to use it that is between you and the dog. If I thought you was saying electrocuting the dog with a product towards the extreme end of discomfort then I would be speaking out alot stronger say, for example. Not saying you are this was an example.

I myself choose to use a different method with my dog and I am having good results as I have had with all my dogs.

I hope you are cool and are ok when you return

Wish you well

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

Gezzz, once again hate , like , its always the same , the ones that HATE the prong collar are the Owners or Trainers that have never used it, but then you have the ones...... Like ME , that has great outcome using the prong, I work six days a week, I have a short great time with my dog each morning and night, I saved my dog from a shelter and I'm sure she would have been put to sleep because she was so out of control, not good with kids, or other dogs, but using the prong has helped in all of areas that I needed help, now she plays with kids, dogs, and has a great life with me ..... I just wish when people make comments about tools that they are the ones they have tried or are using, and not just trashing everything else that they have no idea about............also Juno walks Now with a loose leash, still use the prong to keep her safe and other dogs safe, a lot try to jump at her and I Have no worries about her going after them. last thing I never have seen any dog hurt by a prong collar, holes cuts or whatever, and my daughter is a trainer and they do use the prong on dogs that need that extra help. if one thing would make me stop using this site would be how people trash things they dont try,....just had to vent I guess

I may be against sonething ive never used but i will never use something like that. sorry.

Up untill a while ago I was against semi slip collars!! now I use them everyday!

the worst harness i found for rubbing was the ezydog.

I believe walking your dog should be enjoyable.for both dog and owner.

[Stranger]

I believe walking your dog should be enjoyable.for both dog and owner.

i must admit, some days my boys are better than others, and I also didnt really do much training with the walking...now that my situation has changed and there isnt 4 people shouting different things at the boys, and now its just me and OH, i have been adding new rules and commands, walking is a battle i am planning on tackling when back from Holidays.

i dont always enjoy my walks, i find when i am in a good mood they are also relaxed and dont pull too much, but if i am in a bad mood they do.

Parker is the one that needs re-training, as like you said louise, i do not enjoy walking with him sometimes, and i bet every time i say oh for god sake dog he probably doesnt enjoy it either because he was never really taught.

we dont always get a good dog, one who listens and doesnt pull, i think one of the biggest problems, and i too do this, is alot of us dont always have as much time as we would like to train our dogs.

I am a believer of consistancy and that if we spent alot more time working with our dogs, (as in all day) we wouldnt have half the problems we have today (speaking generally, not just huskys).

I have tried almost all methods, but have to admit, not spent long on them all, thus getting no results. problem is some dogs are more stubborn then others.

Prong collars are not something i have tried, and most likely will not, i dont doubt that they work, i think all training methods do otherwise why would we know about them.

I am going back to the beginning and will be using the standing still method, no matter how long it takes, he will get it.

i have however found this topic rather interesting

x

[Bec]

I agree walking your dog should be enjoyable, but if you had a very large aggressive dog that was a chronic leash puller it's not going to be enjoyable for dog or owner. I've never seen any dog we have trained unhappy about being walked on a prong collar. In fact they are happier because it means they get to go out and both dog and owner can enjoy themselves Whether it takes a prong collar, martingale, anti pull harness or whatever to achieve that anything is better than a dog being left in the backyard with no stimulation or walks at all.

[Stranger]

I agree walking your dog should be enjoyable, but if you had a very large aggressive dog that was a chronic leash puller it's not going to be enjoyable for dog or owner. I've never seen any dog we have trained unhappy about being walked on a prong collar. In fact they are happier because it means they get to go out and both dog and owner can enjoy themselves Whether it takes a prong collar, martingale, anti pull harness or whatever to achieve that anything is better than a dog being left in the backyard with no stimulation or walks at all.

completely agree, were lucky enough that we dont have aggressive dogs, but even those who are aggressive deserve some kind of life.

and no stimulation only causes more problems.

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

i must admit, some days my boys are better than others, and I also didnt really do much training with the walking...now that my situation has changed and there isnt 4 people shouting different things at the boys, and now its just me and OH, i have been adding new rules and commands, walking is a battle i am planning on tackling when back from Holidays.

i dont always enjoy my walks, i find when i am in a good mood they are also relaxed and dont pull too much, but if i am in a bad mood they do.

Parker is the one that needs re-training, as like you said louise, i do not enjoy walking with him sometimes, and i bet every time i say oh for god sake dog he probably doesnt enjoy it either because he was never really taught.

we dont always get a good dog, one who listens and doesnt pull, i think one of the biggest problems, and i too do this, is alot of us dont always have as much time as we would like to train our dogs.

I am a believer of consistancy and that if we spent alot more time working with our dogs, (as in all day) we wouldnt have half the problems we have today (speaking generally, not just huskys).

I have tried almost all methods, but have to admit, not spent long on them all, thus getting no results. problem is some dogs are more stubborn then others.

Prong collars are not something i have tried, and most likely will not, i dont doubt that they work, i think all training methods do otherwise why would we know about them.

I am going back to the beginning and will be using the standing still method, no matter how long it takes, he will get it.

i have however found this topic rather interesting

x

Youve met my Storm, hes not a small boy lol. I didnt really enjoy walks much, in fact when he was younger I wanted to think about getting rid of him because I couldnt walk him properly and I was getting muscle problems in my arms.

Then I got my walking belt, things werent better but tolerable.

Now ive got the semi slips, and I enjoy more walks. not every one but most, I tend to walk seperately because together they can be pains messing around and trying to play onlead.

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

I agree walking your dog should be enjoyable, but if you had a very large aggressive dog that was a chronic leash puller it's not going to be enjoyable for dog or owner. I've never seen any dog we have trained unhappy about being walked on a prong collar. In fact they are happier because it means they get to go out and both dog and owner can enjoy themselves Whether it takes a prong collar, martingale, anti pull harness or whatever to achieve that anything is better than a dog being left in the backyard with no stimulation or walks at all.

I do agree with most of what you are saying (for once lol)

Storm is big and does pull a lot, would it make me use a prong collar? nope.

I walk him everyday because I chose to get a dog and to me thats the silent promise you make when you get one.

[Stranger]

Glad you didnt get rid he is such a lovely boy.

I can just handle my two together on my own, they dont always pull but if we go some where new or meet a new dog its pull pull pull.

when we get back from America (with your orange M&MS) we'll be investing in some decent harnesses, and belts just to make life a little easier...and i will be full on with the training.

[Bec]

I do agree with most of what you are saying (for once lol)

Storm is big and does pull a lot, would it make me use a prong collar? nope.

I walk him everyday because I chose to get a dog and to me thats the silent promise you make when you get one.

I would never force anyone to use a prong collar (I wouldn't even know if that would be the recommendation if you came to us for training). Having said that though you would find if using a prong correctly, you'd probably be correcting your dog a lot less than he is being corrected now on a slip collar.

We do have a lot of people who come to us who are apprehensive about prongs as they do look like medieval torture devices, but once the theory has been explained and they feel comfortable with using it they are always amazed with the results. Often these are huge out of control dogs who have been chronic leash pullers for years. In any instance regardless of what tool is used (flat collar, martingale, prong etc) we tell people we will have their dog walking on a loose leash in minutes and that is always the result that is delivered.

ETA: The other thing to remember is that many dog owners aren't as dedicated as yourself and many would have given up long before now, many people need to see results quickly to restore hope their dog can be 'fixed'.

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

Glad you didnt get rid he is such a lovely boy.

I can just handle my two together on my own, they dont always pull but if we go some where new or meet a new dog its pull pull pull.

when we get back from America (with your orange M&MS) we'll be investing in some decent harnesses, and belts just to make life a little easier...and i will be full on with the training.

im sorry what? I didnt read the rest I got as far as orange m&ms

I could never really get rid of him, I love him too much.

[siberian_wolf]

What would you, stacey, SA DA KA, Siberian Wolf and anyone else do if someone came to you for training and you had two hours to show them their dog can be changed or they would have it PTS. You fit it with a WYDWL harness and it doesn't work. The owner gets even more upset and discouraged because you've put a tool on their dog and it hasn't worked. I'm interested to hear you're thoughts

For a start I'm not a WYDWL harness user and I have no plans on trying one as I would rather seek professional advice first. I believe a harness should only be used for a dog to pull in, not something that should necessarily be used to stop pulling, but that's my opinion.

[MENTION=107]Bec[/MENTION] I could just be reading your post wrong (habit I tend to do too much!) but I'm unclear why I was mentioned. We all have our own views on training methods, that's very clear and like you already pointed out the reason why some people do not like the prong collar (much like the e collar) is because they haven't really used one or seen one used properly, and yes that could be why I dislike the prong collar as after reading the different side of it I do feel different about them but i would still seek advice of a professional first.