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utonogan

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hi my next door neighbour has just rehomed a puppy (its wolfie) she bought him in to meet mine lastnight and he loved them and they loved him, anyway i was looking through his paperwork and saw that he isnt a siberian husky as i thought but a utonogan, i know that they are part sibe part mal and part gsd, i looked them up and apparantly they have been bred to be really good at obediance, does this mean husky rules dont apply and he should be trained and kept as a normal dog? im so excited to have him next door as i will be looking after him 2 days a week, well im just supposed to be letting him out and playing with him but im actually gona bring him in here all day cos he is so cute and had isha pouncing and playing like a pup lastnight, keira was a bit scared of him but isha was straight in with the "head lean on his shoulder" and the pouncing and trying to roll on to him and he loved it and tried to grab her ears, im going off subject now, my actual point was, next door really wanted him and i said as i have 2 huskies i would help her out till she gets into the " husky zone" but now we know he is an utonogan do i tell her to treat him just like any other breed or like a husky? he is so sweet and was howling lastnight, i layed in bed listening for an hour before i offered to lend her isha for the night to keep him company, been so long since i heard puppy howls it was great, i want one

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If he's got husky in him, I would treat him like a husky. End of the day if they got husky bloody there's always gonna be a chance of the husky insticts to runaway, be mischievous etc etc. Just looks like she's also have the good chance of very good obedience due to the other elements.

So I guess its kinda both ways really lol

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I would tread with caution, you never know what part of the husky traits they've got.

Bit naughty of them to advertise as a husky though and sell as one for your friend only to find out AFTER getting him and reading the papers that they were lied to :(

I wouldn't be impressed in the slightest at that.

He is so cute though, hope you can get some great pics of him when you puppy sit :)

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I have a friend here in Ireland that has and breeds Northern Inuits, which are the same as, or virtually the same as utonagans ( I believe that a group of people set out to breed a dog, that looked like a husky but without the undesirable bits:p then had a falling out, and some went with the Northern Inuit, some with the Utonagan, but I think Im right in saying they all started out from the same point)

Anyway, my point, sorry, is that her dogs can be let off lead and will come back. We met up for a scooter weekend a while ago and she had one of her NIs with her, after the scootering, he was allowed off lead to go swimming in the lake with the other non sibes, and he was very well behaved. My lot did go for a swim as well, just on long leads. I also took a couple of pups in here that had a sibe mum and a GSD dad. THe woman that rehomed the male pup always walks him off the lead on the beach, and he behaves very well - now he is still only quite young, about 9 months, so this may change;) My advice would be to think of him as a husky until they determine how much they can trust him. But, my sibes would come back 99% of the time off lead I think, as they are very good in our enclosed field, its that 1% that you have to worry about.

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hi thanks for that, husky it is then, he may have said in his post that he was an utonogan and i didnt notice, i just assumed as its mostly sibes on here and he called him a husky that he was a sibe, next door doesnt care and i cant wait to puppy sit and get loads of pics of the 3 together.

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i would be inclined to get your frind to get intouch with trading standards as they falsely advertised him as a husky when he is not

best of look to your neighbour you will have to get them to sign up on here so tey can keep every one updated and well done to them for rehoming him

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I didn't want to say too much when Wolfie's owners posted pics of him but I could pick a mile off that the pup wasn't purebred.

He's a crossbreed plain and simple. If he was sold as Siberian but really has other breeds in him his breeders were obviously not reputable - if he really is a so-called "Utonogan" then why wasn't he sold as such? My bet would be that they've bred crossbreed to crossbreed and are just calling them Utonogans or Siberians or whatever sells the fastest and for the most money.

The thing with crossbreeds is that unlike purebreds they do not breed with any predictability. He could be more GSD like, more mal like or more like a Siberian - or a combination of all three. You really have no idea what size he will grow to, what temperament he will have or how biddable he will be. Best to play this one by ear and don't rely on any so-called "Utonogan" traits to come through in the pup. Buying a crossbreed is like playing the lottery, you really have no idea what you are going to end up with.

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hi thanks for that, husky it is then, he may have said in his post that he was an utonogan and i didnt notice

He most certainly did not, I actually asked Wolfie's owners in a thread when they posted puppy pictures if he was a crossbreed or was he all Siberian and they said "no he's all Siberian" - it was in the Husky puppy Diary thread or whatever it was called.

I don't know what the breeder sold the pup as but if Wolfie's owners knew that dog was a crossbreed and not pure Siberian it was very very wrong of them to sell the dog as a purebred Siberian when they knew it definitely wasn't. The same goes for the breeder if they knowingly sold a cross breed as a purebred.

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Guys, I think maybe Wolfie is a bit confused, maybe the breeder isn't at fault here. Just playing Devil's Advocate, but if you are an inexperienced owner, maybe you think that all 'huskies' are sibes. If you read Wolfie's first post on the forum:

Hi

we have just bought a puppy husky he is 6weeks old but we wont be collecting him till we have moved into our new house next week we have never had huskys before i would just like to enquire what the best food and nutrition is for him at the moment he is currently being fed raw chicken and pedigree chum dry puppy food by his mum and dads owners.

I was a bit unsure about them eating the raw chicken so i thought i would ask here for the best foods and nutrition for him.

His name is wolfie by the way and he is sooooooooooooo cute

he is utonagan .

Wolfie says that the pup is Utonagan, maybe they didn't realise this is a breed, and that the dog isn't a sibe. If the breeder has given them papers, and it says on them that he is a Utonagan, then I don't think that is misselling, rather misunderstanding? I don't know what paperwork came with the pup, but I do know that this "breed" have been around for 20 years and I believe they have kept breed records, in the hope that one day they will be recognised by the KC. So, Wolfie may well have a 5 generation pedigree etc, and all the paperwork that the breeder can give, as its not registered with the KC.

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Guys, I think maybe Wolfie is a bit confused, maybe the breeder isn't at fault here. If you read Wolfie's first post on the forum:

Sorry ISDW, I missed that part of Wolfie's first post - you're right, perhaps they didn't understand the difference.

Wolfie says that the pup is Utonagan, maybe they didn't realise this is a breed, and that the dog isn't a sibe. If the breeder has given them papers, and it says on them that he is a Utonagan, then I don't think that is misselling, rather misunderstanding?

It could be a misunderstanding on Wolfie's behalf, perhaps that's why they said he was purebred Siberian when I asked if he had other breeds in him? (post 16 & 17):

http://www.husky-owners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3186&page=2

However, IMO, if that is the case the fault here is entirely with the breeders. How would Wolfie be under the impression the dog was a husky if the breeders had been honest and educated him on the fact he was buying a Utonogan? If they were reputable breeders they would ensure all their puppy buyers are more than clear on what type of dog they are buying. There should never be any misconception on behalf of the puppy buyers that they have a purebred dog when in fact they have something entirely different. Wouldn't a reputable Utonagan breeder want to promote their breed as special and separate from Siberian Huskies? Wouldn't they want to promote their breed in a positive way and distance themselves from the "husky" tag as that's (apparently) not what there breed is at all?

To be perfectly honest I would run a mile from any breeder who claimed they were breeding "Utonagan" to start with, but that's just because I prefer to go with purebreds so I know exactly what I'm getting because the breeders breed to a breed standard.

ETA:

I don't know what paperwork came with the pup, but I do know that this "breed" have been around for 20 years and I believe they have kept breed records, in the hope that one day they will be recognised by the KC. So, Wolfie may well have a 5 generation pedigree etc, and all the paperwork that the breeder can give, as its not registered with the KC.

They aren't a recognised breed though, and I'm sure as Mick (Raindog) has discussed on this forum in the past, all these "wolf dog" breeds are really just crossbreeds that are over bred and marketed as something they aren't.

There are plenty of crossbreeds that have been around longer than 20 years (which really isn't that long when we're talking about breed development) that still aren't breeding true nor do they breed to a breed standard. I'd be interested to read the Utonagan breed standard, if there even is one :) The other thing to keep in mind with all these popular crossbreeds is that, unlike recognised purebreds, there is no governing body like the KC that registers and monitors breeders. You have no idea if the breeder is legitimate or not, anyone can call their pups "Utonagan" and you have no way of knowing if they are being honest or not - it's not like you can contact the KC and check their kennel name is registered or that you receive genuine pedigree papers with the puppy.

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You're absolutely right on a lot of your points, but unfortunately, I have had to deal with a lot of KC and IKC registered sibes that come from puppy farmers, just because a dog is registered means nothing in my book. Until the KCs do proper checks, and only register pups from health checked parents, I see the paperwork as meaningless. I have male and female sibes here, some are IKC registered, I also have unregistered ones. There is nothing to stop me breeding unregistered dogs and then registering the pups as coming from the registered parents - nobody would know the difference. I know of one breeder in Ireland that has sibes and mals, and some of his pups look like 'huskamutes', yet they are registered as either sibes or mals. I took a mal bitch in that he had handed into a pound, she was in pup, he didn't know at the time - thank goodness, when I spoke to him, to find out when she had been in season (he very stupidly left an ID tag on another dog he handed in at the same time, with his phone number on it!) he told me he had no mal males in at the time she was in season, so it must have been a sibe that had got to her. You can guarantee though that he would have sold those pups as Mals, and put another dog's name down as the sire.

I know that a lot of sibe people have 'issues' with the NI and Utonagan breeders, I'm not getting involved with that lol but all breeds have to start somewhere don't they? All breeds start with crossbreeding. Would you opinion change then if they were recognised by the KC, and they could be registered?

Not totally disagreeing with you, just having a discussion. My eyes have been opened big time over the last year to what can go on, and I am totally disillusioned with Kennel Clubs and how easy it is to manipulate things. I don't mean the whole TV documentary thing, and the furore that caused, just how no checks are carried out, and how many sibes I've had in here that have paperwork, but are nothing like the breed standard!

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I don't mind if someone is genuinely trying to create a new breed - good luck to them, it's bloody hard work and I often think people aren't quite aware of how much work is involved. Every second designer mutt or crossbreed is apparently trying to get KC recognised these days. The "Labradoodle" group have been at it for decades and they are still no where near getting ANKC recognition (and won't get it with that name anyway).

That all breeds start with crossbreeding is a myth, and the way early breeds were a combination of different type to start with is completely different to the 'smack em together and hope for the best' crossbreeding we have now. However, that's an entirely different topic altogether ;)

I would never say that just because a breeder has KC registration means that they are reputable, but at least purebreds have a governing body to regulate breeding which is a damn sight more than we can say for crossbreeding. I'm not sure how common forging papers is in the UK but although it's not unheard of here it does not happen often, and any breeder who forges papers would lose their ANKC registration and kennel name. Maybe you could report the KC breeder who is selling crossbreeds with pedigree papers to the KC?

ETA: The fact still remains that Wolfie's breeder was most likely dodgy when you consider their puppy buyer thought they had bought a purebred husky, if the breeder was reputable there should be no confusion whatsoever that the dog was a completely separate "breed" to a husky.

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The IKC probably wouldn't do anything if a breeder got reported, they're even worse than the KC!

The situation here in Ireland is that a group of puppy farmers didn't like the IKCs rules, you know, underage breeding etc, so they set up their own club and they register the dogs through that! Unfortunately, a lot of the public don't know about this, they just see a puppy is registered with an organisation, they get papers, and think all is above board!

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The IKC probably wouldn't do anything if a breeder got reported, they're even worse than the KC!

The situation here in Ireland is that a group of puppy farmers didn't like the IKCs rules, you know, underage breeding etc, so they set up their own club and they register the dogs through that! Unfortunately, a lot of the public don't know about this, they just see a puppy is registered with an organisation, they get papers, and think all is above board!

Shocking isn't it. We need more education for puppy buyers, it's often too hard to sort the reputable breeders from the dodgy ones.

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hi, his "paperwork" is a home printed pedigree that i think is 3 generation and has the same affix on both sides i think (will check later), it states that he is a utonogan husky. i think the breeder must have been a bit dodgy as i know the man my neighbour got him from (wolfie) told me he paid 600 for him, my isha only cost 500 fully registered with a number of champions in her pedigree! he is such a sweet little chap though, he came round again for 10 minutes thismorning for a bit of a play, he has a new name now but i cant spell it so i wont bother trying, i will get his new mum to come here and tell you all about him, i think im puppy sitting tomorrow so have to charge my camera batterys overnight.

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hi, his "paperwork" is a home printed pedigree that i think is 3 generation and has the same affix on both sides i think (will check later), it states that he is a utonogan husky. i think the breeder must have been a bit dodgy as i know the man my neighbour got him from (wolfie) told me he paid 600 for him, my isha only cost 500 fully registered with a number of champions in her pedigree! he is such a sweet little chap though, he came round again for 10 minutes thismorning for a bit of a play, he has a new name now but i cant spell it so i wont bother trying, i will get his new mum to come here and tell you all about him, i think im puppy sitting tomorrow so have to charge my camera batterys overnight.

600 pounds -- my goodness, that's over $1200 Australian!! That's what I'd expect to pay for a pedigree show quality Siberian pup from a reputable breeder.

So glad to hear the pup has a new forever home :) He sounds like he will be very spoilt ;)

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hi, his "paperwork" is a home printed pedigree that i think is 3 generation and has the same affix on both sides i think (will check later), it states that he is a utonogan husky. i think the breeder must have been a bit dodgy as i know the man my neighbour got him from (wolfie) told me he paid 600 for him, my isha only cost 500 fully registered with a number of champions in her pedigree! he is such a sweet little chap though, he came round again for 10 minutes thismorning for a bit of a play, he has a new name now but i cant spell it so i wont bother trying, i will get his new mum to come here and tell you all about him, i think im puppy sitting tomorrow so have to charge my camera batterys overnight.

Awww Deb pictures are a MUST!!!!

Can't wait to see them - and yes, def get your neighbour on here :)

I agree with Smeagle, I think he's going to be very spoilt lol :party:

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The Northern Inuits here in Ireland go for €900, which would be about 800 I think. I guess something is worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for it.

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