Coyotes as pets

[Mazz]

Hope you don't mind me correcting you Canis lupus familiarius is actually a subspecies of the Grey Wolf (Canis lupus)

Canis lupus familiaris is the scientific name for the domesticated dog, which in fact is a subspecies of the Grey Wolf; and of course canis lupus that of the Grey Wolf. The scientific name of the dog used to be simply, canis familiaris, but it was changed some years ago, when research noted that the genetic DNA of the Grey Wolf and the domesticated dog were very tight with one another.

[Rynne Allison]

sutsibe mentioned the genetic experiment on Russian foxes, and it seemed to prove that even after generations of captive breeding, these wild animals could, and would, still snap. Coyotes, wolves etc haven't been captive breed for that long, and whilst gorgeous animals, will turn IMHO.

Also, not sure if it's the same in the US, but in the UK, people have these wolf lookalikes as status symbols - they usually haven't a clue how to train/treat these dogs, and often you hear of the dog needing to be rehomed as it's too 'wild', or they breed them and sell puppies to even less knowledgeable people - again just my opinion!

How will that work with 'real' wolves or coyotes?

[sutsibe]

Sibes, Mals or hybrids are sometimes a similar status symbol here in the US. I can't count the time some idiot has come up to me upon seeing my dogs, and bragged about having a wolf/hybrid and wanting to know if I would breed one of my dogs/bitches with their critter! I've always managed to stay polite in declining - but with effort!

[Winter]

Sorry if I sound too preachy, but as with many posters, I believe coyotes should not be purchased as pets. In Texas, most folks consider them to be pests, as they will certainly go through your trash or make off with your cat. But, that's the price you pay for encroaching on their territory. They are remarkably adaptable, and unlike wolves, have actually thrived as more and more of their natural habitat has been urbanized. But that doesn't mean you can plop them in the middle of a dog park. Domestication doesn't happen by raising one coyote as a pet. It took hundreds of years of breeding for favorable traits to get domesticated dogs and cats. No matter how well you treat and train a coyote, he is going to have instincts that simply cannot be squashed in one generation. Hybrids can be even more dangerous, as you have no way of knowing which traits are going to carry over into the next generation - so you might get mules or you might get killer bees. And, there is just no reason to do it. There are so many beautiful wonderful breeds of dogs. If you want a wolf or coyote, with a little research, you can find an agouti or wolfgray husky that is nearly identical. Sometimes too close to being identical...as my husky will attest when he chases down a coyote and stands on top of it grinning

[TreyRust]

(Parrots, though, are an exception because from what I heard they are mostly bred over here now instead of being caught in the wild. Mostly because it is less expensive. Also - it's not like a parrot can take your arm off (or kill you) if they are suddenly vicious.)

Actually they were very VERY cheaply captured in the wild, but facing extincting import laws were introduced and it's now illegal to import ANY parrot from the wild... And parrots do have very strong beaks some can bite your hand off, but they typically don't attack anything by nature unless they are doing it in self defense so it's not likely that that will happen unless you treat them really really badly. You MUST keep in mind they are still very closely wild animals and as been said earlier it takes quite a long time to domesticate them.

Moreover no efforts are being made to breed them sepcifically because it's not really needed because they don't really snap. But much like in the sibe world they are all bred and sold without any sort of breed standards (there is no AKC of the parrot world). One thing that was a culture shock when I came back into the dog world after being into parrots for so long was seeing people freaking out about taking pups from a mother and less than 8 weeks later - Parrots are typically pulled at a few days to be hand raised as it "makes them tamer", which I think is proposterous as there is no evidence to suggest they are any more tame if you just hold them and let their parrents raise them or if you do it all... It's easier to do it yourself because parents can be very defensive but in my opinion it shouldn't be done. Some raise them around their parents which I guess is okay. It all boils down to the thing thing with dogs, they need to learn how to be a parrot from their parents or they won't do well with other parrots when they grow up...

Gah, I'm off my soapbox now... As you can probably tell I'm a parrot person

[Elyse]

Ah - thanks for the correction. I don't know much about parrots - I only owned a parakeet when I was smaller (passed 6 years ago. RIP Pepi)

[TreyRust]

Watching the NOVA special "Dogs decoded"

They did a very interesting study and concluded with:

Research show's that upbringing has little impact. It is impossible to turn a wolf into a dog, no matter how much it is loved or nurtured.

So, if anyone ever considered a wolf the first thing to realize is that you can't treat them like dogs at all.

They also brought up that dogs can read our body language like no other animal, including the wolf (and chimps). (I do want to see an experiment on parrots though!)

There about to talk about the silver fox next so sshhh...

[sutsibe]

Watching the NOVA special "Dogs decoded"......

There about to talk about the silver fox next so sshhh...

Did you find it interesting?

[TreyRust]

Did you find it interesting?

Yes very. I know people keep foxes at pets but I wasn't sure how domesticated they have been?

Either way, I don't think it would be an entirely bad idea to domesticate the coyote...

[sutsibe]

Yes very. I know people keep foxes at pets but I wasn't sure how domesticated they have been?

Either way, I don't think it would be an entirely bad idea to domesticate the coyote...

Would take a LOT of work and quite a few generations before they'd make a good pet - easier to just get a dog!

[TreyRust]

Would take a LOT of work and quite a few generations before they'd make a good pet - easier to just get a dog!

Nay sayer! Don't ask why ask why not! Otherwise we would not be where we are today as the human race. By doing seemingly useless things we have discovered a lot of stuff. There's not telling what we might find out if we domesticate the coyote...

If Bill Gates/Steve Jobs (and the other people involved that don't get credited) asked that, we wouldn't be talking.

If Thomas Edison said "easier to just light a candle" You wouldn't have a lamp.

If Grace Hopper had listened to the people saying "But we're used to programming this way" We may very well still be coding in 1s and 0s and operation systems and computers in general would not be this advanced.

I could go on and on and I'm sure as a teacher you know where I'm coming from. But in my defense this isn't a personal venture to me, this is a scientific one, I'm not wanting to spend thousands and half of my life domesticating the wild coyote so that I could have a pet on my death bed... No, my favorite (if you can pick one...) breed is the border collie and it would be totally pointless to make one from a coyote and I have no intentions but I think domestication of coyotes could have benefits... One things for certain, they would be a very independent breed (at least if that's not bred out soon).

We might discover something that we never knew before or find a solution to a problem that we didn't have before. Saying that there are enough dogs right now is a dangerous thing and just because you love current breeds there are people that don't own dogs because they can't find one... It's very limiting and it's impossible to have a perfect breed for every possible problem.

[Elyse]

'Dogs Decoded'. That's what that Nova episode was called - I still remember most things off by heart. It's one of my favourite Nova episodes.

And, actually, I think domesticating coyotes would be pointless.

They would probably end up very similar (or exactly like) the domestic dog. There are already independent and intelligent breeds, such as our Sibes. And, even though I don't agree with it, you could breed the desire to pull sleds out of them and 'convert' the breed to another use.

There are thousands of breeds of dogs - I'm pretty sure they cover every problem we have or we could ever have. Unless we needed an army of dogs that could eat the pollution we dump into the atmosphere every day, we don't need anymore breeds and we wouldn't need to domesticate the coyote.

There are enough dogs and breeds out there - as I'm sure you know BYBs seem to guarantee shelters will be over-capacity almost all the time.

[sutsibe]

@TreyRust I agree as regards scientific research (at least for the most part) and programming go. What you aren't considering regarding the domestication of coyotes, is that when dogs were first domesticated, those individuals not suitable - not comfortable with humans - would simply leave human company, and weren't as likely to be as likely to harm humans - or to be killed because they were a threat! As you breed coyotes toward domestication, all of the animals not truly domesticated on the way will need special housing and care, and won't be able to have the benefits our truly domesticated dogs OR their wild relatives have. Like Elyse, I see no real benefit to domesticating another species of dog, simply to have another species of domesticated dog, when there are so many already...

[Franklin Phil]

I have coyotes living across the road from me. They come up out of the woods periodically looking for something to take back (like a cat). My only question is, Why? What would be the point? There are enough dogs out there that you can get the size and shape and color you want without the risk. I can only guess that it's human nature to see something and want it because nobody else has one. I would not take the many long term risks of bringing something like this home. Like Gigi said, huskies are troublesome enough as a breed, and yet very domesticated. They still fill shelters the world over. So, is it fair to bring an animal out of the wild for our own entertainment to try and assimilate it into our world only to discover that after 3 or 4 years that leopard still has spots? And by this time, the animal has lost it's charm and you are left with a coyote that has bent over backwards to try and be a dog for you, and yet falls short. And now you are uninterested in having it. Your friends all know you have one, and they no longer care. No one left to show it off to. I guess the only thing to do is turn it back loose in the wild where it no longer knows how to live. This would be real great for the coyote

[TreyRust]

@TreyRust I agree as regards scientific research (at least for the most part) and programming go. What you aren't considering regarding the domestication of coyotes, is that when dogs were first domesticated, those individuals not suitable - not comfortable with humans - would simply leave human company, and weren't as likely to be as likely to harm humans - or to be killed because they were a threat! As you breed coyotes toward domestication, all of the animals not truly domesticated on the way will need special housing and care, and won't be able to have the benefits our truly domesticated dogs OR their wild relatives have. Like Elyse, I see no real benefit to domesticating another species of dog, simply to have another species of domesticated dog, when there are so many already...

I figured that was a bold enough statement to be in bold. I am considering it and that's the foremost important part of any domestication and I'm aware of this. Special living arangments would have to be made and people would have to be in charge of caring for them.

'Dogs Decoded'. That's what that Nova episode was called - I still remember most things off by heart. It's one of my favourite Nova episodes.

And, actually, I think domesticating coyotes would be pointless.

They would probably end up very similar (or exactly like) the domestic dog. There are already independent and intelligent breeds, such as our Sibes. And, even though I don't agree with it, you could breed the desire to pull sleds out of them and 'convert' the breed to another use.

There are thousands of breeds of dogs - I'm pretty sure they cover every problem we have or we could ever have. Unless we needed an army of dogs that could eat the pollution we dump into the atmosphere every day, we don't need anymore breeds and we wouldn't need to domesticate the coyote.

There are enough dogs and breeds out there - as I'm sure you know BYBs seem to guarantee shelters will be over-capacity almost all the time.

You say that, but what about the Sulimov? It's _the best_ dog for sniffing and has been bred specifically to sniff out chemicals used in bombs, unlike a german shepherd or similar, they were bred with the jackal and are more indenpent, this means they take the initiative themselves to always be searching without ques from the handler.

The guy who bred them is still not satisfied and want's to keep working on it. I don't mean to be rude but it's quite a bold statement to say that we have a breed for everything you can think of, maybe you or most people, but not everything. It's simply not possible.

I have coyotes living across the road from me. They come up out of the woods periodically looking for something to take back (like a cat). My only question is, Why? What would be the point? There are enough dogs out there that you can get the size and shape and color you want without the risk. I can only guess that it's human nature to see something and want it because nobody else has one. I would not take the many long term risks of bringing something like this home. Like Gigi said, huskies are troublesome enough as a breed, and yet very domesticated. They still fill shelters the world over. So, is it fair to bring an animal out of the wild for our own entertainment to try and assimilate it into our world only to discover that after 3 or 4 years that leopard still has spots? And by this time, the animal has lost it's charm and you are left with a coyote that has bent over backwards to try and be a dog for you, and yet falls short. And now you are uninterested in having it. Your friends all know you have one, and they no longer care. No one left to show it off to. I guess the only thing to do is turn it back loose in the wild where it no longer knows how to live. This would be real great for the coyote

Well like I said, you don't get one with the intention of keeping it as a dog because it never will be. But good points none-the-less.

I do want to say one thing though: This is all just talk, I'm not gonna go out tomorrow and catch some coyote cubs, Probably not ever, I'm just discussing it.

They said at the end of the part with the silver foxes that they would make really unique pets domesticated. You have to all remember that dogs came from wolves not coyotes. But they are all so closely related and can mutate like no other that a domestic coyote could be turned into a chihuahua with selective breeding if the need be.

And again, this isn't something that I'm planning on or possibly even hoping to happen, it's just important as part of the human race to keep our options open and not be closed minded or we might never see something that we didn't before.

[Elyse]

You say that, but what about the Sulimov? It's _the best_ dog for sniffing and has been bred specifically to sniff out chemicals used in bombs, unlike a german shepherd or similar, they were bred with the jackal and are more indenpent, this means they take the initiative themselves to always be searching without ques from the handler.

The guy who bred them is still not satisfied and want's to keep working on it. I don't mean to be rude but it's quite a bold statement to say that we have a breed for everything you can think of, maybe you or most people, but not everything. It's simply not possible.

Never knew about that breed - is it registered as a breed officially? As I looked on the internet, some websites were saying it is a cross between a Jackal x Sibe , while others are saying it is a cross between a Jackal x Lapponian Herder. So - which one is right?

Not to be rude either, but can you give me an example where we need a breed of dog where another dog isn't already bred for? (And where another breed of dog can't suffice to be more efficient? Or where another breed of dog can't be created from the breeds we already have that will suit the job? Or where we can't just start from scratch and start the domestication of wolves over again to create a new breed so it still has the wolf's intelligence and independence.) ((not sure if that makes any sense, but it makes sense in my head.))

If you can give me a valid answer, then I stand corrected.

Wait - so are you talking about (hypothetically) domesticating the coyote in order to create more dogs breeds for different uses? Or are you talking about only (hypothetically) domesticating the coyote just to have domesticated coyotes?

And, please give me an example where, if we domesticate the coyote, how we will see things like we've never seen them before? I'm sorry, but I just don't understand your logic. Please enlighten me.

[TreyRust]

Never knew about that breed - is it registered as a breed officially? As I looked on the internet, some websites were saying it is a cross between a Jackal x Sibe , while others are saying it is a cross between a Jackal x Lapponian Herder. So - which one is right?

Not to be rude either, but can you give me an example where we need a breed of dog where another dog isn't already bred for? (And where another breed of dog can't suffice to be more efficient? Or where another breed of dog can't be created from the breeds we already have that will suit the job? Or where we can't just start from scratch and start the domestication of wolves over again to create a new breed so it still has the wolf's intelligence and independence.) ((not sure if that makes any sense, but it makes sense in my head.))

If you can give me a valid answer, then I stand corrected.

Wait - so are you talking about (hypothetically) domesticating the coyote in order to create more dogs breeds for different uses? Or are you talking about only (hypothetically) domesticating the coyote just to have domesticated coyotes?

And, please give me an example where, if we domesticate the coyote, how we will see things like we've never seen them before? I'm sorry, but I just don't understand your logic. Please enlighten me.

Ok, I'm saying two things here, firstly when I said we can't have a breed for everything I meant that as we may need to make more in the future, from current breeds, not coyotes.

That breed is a russian bomb sniffing dog and there aren't that many in existance and it won't likely become a "pet" anytime soon.

I'm talking about domesticating the coyote to have a domestic coyote, not to start from scratch. Yes it would probably be pointless but then again, what was the point of the Chi? I can't give you a "logical" answer because the logic in all none working dogs is inherently flawed. There is no point in breeding just companion dogs, and there are so many breeds we could dump because "theres no point", one of the only dogs thats still important to society is Border Collies and other shepherd dogs. Realistically we could dump most of them with modern technology: But we don't because we want companions and dogs are truly mans best friend.

It's important to not think of a domesticated coyote as just another dog, and not a dog at all. But a domesticated coyote as that is more what it is than anything. They said that those domesticated foxes would make a really great and unique companion _because they are still very different from dogs_

My point is that perhaps there are people that don't own dogs because they truly can't find the breed right for them. And while a coyote would be similar but still not a dog they could fill another niche... I can't give a realistic example and I'm sorry, this is the best I can do.

[Elyse]

Ok, I'm saying two things here, firstly when I said we can't have a breed for everything I meant that as we may need to make more in the future, from current breeds, not coyotes.

That breed is a russian bomb sniffing dog and there aren't that many in existance and it won't likely become a "pet" anytime soon.

I'm talking about domesticating the coyote to have a domestic coyote, not to start from scratch. Yes it would probably be pointless but then again, what was the point of the Chi? I can't give you a "logical" answer because the logic in all none working dogs is inherently flawed. There is no point in breeding just companion dogs, and there are so many breeds we could dump because "theres no point", one of the only dogs thats still important to society is Border Collies and other shepherd dogs. Realistically we could dump most of them with modern technology: But we don't because we want companions and dogs are truly mans best friend.

It's important to not think of a domesticated coyote as just another dog, and not a dog at all. But a domesticated coyote as that is more what it is than anything. They said that those domesticated foxes would make a really great and unique companion _because they are still very different from dogs_

My point is that perhaps there are people that don't own dogs because they truly can't find the breed right for them. And while a coyote would be similar but still not a dog they could fill another niche... I can't give a realistic example and I'm sorry, this is the best I can do.

Oh, okay. I understand better now; thanks!

Speaking of useless dog breeds; do you know the Dalmatian was originally bred to walk under carriages in England? To walk under carriages! They are also riddled with genetic diseases but that is besides the point.

When you domesticate an animal, you are selectively breeding out unwanted traits right? So, for example, you wanted to breed the prey drive out of the coyote. After generations, you'd finally end up with a coyote pup that has little to no prey drive. But then you'd only be able to breed that coyote (with no prey drive) with another coyote that has little to no prey drive in order to produce an ideal litter. This opens up a whole new can of worms as you're now into incest if there are not any other (unrelated) suitable coyotes that cannot be found, which leads to genetic diseases that we have in dog breeds today due to the original small gene pool. If this isn't how you domesticate animals, then I apologize because this is how I always understood how it was done. I don't claim to be an expert on this!

[TreyRust]

Oh, okay. I understand better now; thanks!

Speaking of useless dog breeds; do you know the Dalmatian was originally bred to walk under carriages in England? To walk under carriages! They are also riddled with genetic diseases but that is besides the point.

When you domesticate an animal, you are selectively breeding out unwanted traits right? So, for example, you wanted to breed the prey drive out of the coyote. After generations, you'd finally end up with a coyote pup that has little to no prey drive. But then you'd only be able to breed that coyote (with no prey drive) with another coyote that has little to no prey drive in order to produce an ideal litter. This opens up a whole new can of worms as you're now into incest if there are not any other (unrelated) suitable coyotes that cannot be found, which leads to genetic diseases that we have in dog breeds today due to the original small gene pool. If this isn't how you domesticate animals, then I apologize because this is how I always understood how it was done. I don't claim to be an expert on this!

Most different dog breeds are from the victorian era.

That is only one was to do it, and not a very smart one... If this was ever done I'd want to have a very large group of coyotes to start from to avoid genetic illness... But yes this is the hardest part of domestication or creating any breed of dog and is all to often ignored...

[Elyse]

Even with racing horses it is a problem.

I saw on a Nova episode, there is also selective breeding in race horses (ie: a champion horse is mated with mares to have 'superior' offspring...so the offspring will hopefully inherit the champion horse's genetic traits that allow it to have greater speed, more stamina, etc.).

Even though selective breeding has improved the average lap time of the horses (throughbreds) throughout the generations, their incredible stamina they were once known for (and that they evolved to escape the predators on the Great Plains.) has decreased dramatically. Also, to add to the damage, there are also increased cases of horses breaking ankles/legs because the bone structure of the leg hasn't been taken the account.

The only trait they concentrate on, when they breed them, is speed. When you breed for one specific trait only, that's when you get problems. For example, in the throughbreds, NOVA showed horses have been breaking ankles and legs more often then ever before. This is because the bone structure has been weakened overtime with selective breeding, the bones have been made lighter by selective breeding (obviously an unwanted side-effect; but this allows for more speed due to lighter weight), and this causes more breaks and fractures.

The horses are usually put down, because they usually cannot be raced ever again and their 'owners' don't want to bother letting them live if they aren't raking in the cash for them. It's disgusting and it makes me weep for the human race.

In any case, domesticating or selective breeding is dangerous.

[TreyRust]

Even with racing horses it is a problem.

I saw on a Nova episode, there is also selective breeding in race horses (ie: a champion horse is mated with mares to have 'superior' offspring...so the offspring will hopefully inherit the champion horse's genetic traits that allow it to have greater speed, more stamina, etc.).

Even though selective breeding has improved the average lap time of the horses (throughbreds) throughout the generations, their incredible stamina they were once known for (and that they evolved to escape the predators on the Great Plains.) has decreased dramatically. Also, to add to the damage, there are also increased cases of horses breaking ankles/legs because the bone structure of the leg hasn't been taken the account.

The only trait they concentrate on, when they breed them, is speed. When you breed for one specific trait only, that's when you get problems. For example, in the throughbreds, NOVA showed horses have been breaking ankles and legs more often then ever before. This is because the bone structure has been weakened overtime with selective breeding, the bones have been made lighter by selective breeding (obviously an unwanted side-effect; but this allows for more speed due to lighter weight), and this causes more breaks and fractures.

The horses are usually put down, because they usually cannot be raced ever again and their 'owners' don't want to bother letting them live if they aren't raking in the cash for them. It's disgusting and it makes me weep for the human race.

In any case, domesticating or selective breeding is dangerous.

That's the same reason there are genetic diseases in a lot of specialized dog breeds. They were bred for their looks and not health. I believe the husky is an exception? As well as other working dogs that were very much bred for health.

[Maury]

I'm not at all a fan of keeping wild animals as pets - and unless they've been captive bred for quite a number of generations, they're still wild animals! Coyotes and wolves in captivity haven't been bred long enough to achieve this status, IMO. While they often seem to be as friendly as dogs, they can revert suddenly to the wild side, ending up biting a person, and paying the ultimate price for simply being what they are. In Siberia during the last century, Russian fox breeders selectively bred their foxes to make them more domesticated - the most outgoing, laid back, and friendly to each other, trying to develop less aggressive critters. If you google the experiment, you'll see lots of info on it - and if you find the photos, you'll see that after a number of generations, the foxes don't look nearly as much like foxes as they do domestic dogs! Manipulate the genes that make them aggressive and change them, and other genes are also changed, so that the entire look of the animal is changed... and it isn't truly a wild animal any more!

I saw that documentary! Their markings resembled that of a black and white sibe!!

[Elyse]

I think Sibes still suffer from genetic hip/eye problems but not as much as other breeds?

[sutsibe]

I saw that documentary! Their markings resembled that of a black and white sibe!!

I can't recall quite what they' looked like, as it's been a while since I saw it. I just remembered it was quite interesting...

I think Sibes still suffer from genetic hip/eye problems but not as much as other breeds?

Eye problems are more common than hip problems, at least in the show and sledding lines. Reputable breeders have done a pretty good job, especially in screening for hip dysplasia, and it's pretty rare. There are more problems with eyes, and part of that stems from some breeders being less concerned with eye problems... :mad:

[TreyRust]

Eye problems are more common than hip problems, at least in the show and sledding lines. Reputable breeders have done a pretty good job, especially in screening for hip dysplasia, and it's pretty rare. There are more problems with eyes, and part of that stems from some breeders being less concerned with eye problems... :mad:

Aren't all the genetic problems with the husky due to recent poor breeding of the modern world? Weren't they pretty well and pure while they were working dogs?