Training tool DISCUSSION

[Charley]

I have no experience with any of these tools but would like to add my opinion in...

Millie pulls constantly and has pulled hard enough to pull me (and my mother in law) over and drag me into a road on more than one occassion. My father in law said 'choke chain!' instantly but im against the use of these as ive heard they can damage to spine and also ive always thought them to be cruel (although i know many people will disagree with this, it is just my opinion). My dad suggested a head collar as he'd seen huskies in the park wearing them but not really understanding them i didnt buy one. I posted a thread on here asking for advice and Stacey offered to help with the training using positive reinforcement techniques. I have seen an improvement using her techniques over the past month so would definatley recommend the positive reinforcement route before trying any tools - however i wouldnt say never to the use of any.

I didnt know you could get half check collars but after reading this thread and doing a bit of online research I am considering the use of this as it may speed up the training. Of course I will only buy one if I know it will not harm Millie and once I fully understand how to use it.

x

[Charley]

Also, if anyone has any experience with Martingale collars I'd appreciate your opinion on what exactly these are designed for and their effectiveness?

x

[Sid_Wolf]

i got Kira to walk nicely using a clicker and treats, and got grey to walk kind of nicely, but put them together and you have no chance!

I totally agree with using +R as your 1st option, it definately is the best way

[Staceybob]

Also, if anyone has any experience with Martingale collars I'd appreciate your opinion on what exactly these are designed for and their effectiveness?

x

I'll drop you a PM tomorrow about how to introduce them and implement it into the training we've already got going for you

Stacey xxx

[Sid_Wolf]

Also, if anyone has any experience with Martingale collars I'd appreciate your opinion on what exactly these are designed for and their effectiveness?

x

Martingales are similar to semi slips, but they tighten more. they are the same has 1/2 checks but tend to be webbing/fabric all over rather than 1/2 fabric 1/2 chain

They give a slight correction, but their intended use is for dogs who slip collars, as they tighten slightly so the dog cant pull its head out, often used on greyhounds as their heads are the same thickness as their necks

[Charley]

Martingales are similar to semi slips, but they tighten more. they are the same has 1/2 checks but tend to be webbing/fabric all over rather than 1/2 fabric 1/2 chain

They give a slight correction, but their intended use is for dogs who slip collars, as they tighten slightly so the dog cant pull its head out, often used on greyhounds as their heads are the same thickness as their necks

So which is best- the semi slip or martingale collars? So far Millie has never slipped her collar, nor has she ever tried.

x

[Sid_Wolf]

ummm, i guess the martingale is better as a training tool, tho im not 100% sure, @Staceybob or @Bec would be the person to ask

If you go for a martingale/half check, get one with fabric is my only advice. The chain rips the fur and can discolour it too in my experience

[Charley]

Don't like the look of the chain ones, had a feeling might catch in her fur to easily- don't want her to have any bold patches lol!

I'll ask Stacey for her suggestions Thanks

x

[Sid_Wolf]

Don't like the look of the chain ones, had a feeling might catch in her fur to easily- don't want her to have any bold patches lol!

I'll ask Stacey for her suggestions Thanks

x

yea they can really damage the coat, kira had one for a while before i changed to semi slips and it took forever for the broken fur to grow back

[James]

indeed each to their own.

Though I see nothing particularly wrong with abit of discipline.

Just me a guess ^_^

[Elyse]

I have a martingale on Suka...although it's half-fabric and half chain. Like this:

I find it works extremely well - because Suka is constantly wanting to sniff things. He's such a curious dog.

[Sid_Wolf]

I have a martingale on Suka...although it's half-fabric and half chain. Like this:

I find it works extremely well - because Suka is constantly wanting to sniff things. He's such a curious dog.

do you fine it rips the fur? it completely ruined kiras

[Bob & Juno]

Just a note to try and help everyone understand how the prong collar works, when its around the neck and fits correct, and the dog pulls or you pull back on the leash, the prongs fold away from the neck, each prong tip will lay up against the next one, and so on, I think most people think the prongs push into the neck and they dont, long as you have it on right. what happens when the prong tips touch they pinch, not poke or dig, once you see one not on a neck of a dog and pull on it, then you would see how it works, I hope this helps people to understand and clear up how they work. thanks for reading

[Bec]

Water is harmless, Noise Diversion is harmless, You use these to distract the dog and then they get a reward - therefore positive reinforcement training with the use of a light consequence. Head collars when used properly are also harmless

Stacey I know you mean well and I don't mean to appear like I am picking on you but those things are NOT harmless. They aren't used to distract the dog, they apply an aversive (something the dog finds unpleasant/doesn't like) to interrupt the behaviour otherwise they wouldn't work. Sure - a dog with harder nerves won't be bothered by a loud noise but a weaker nerved dog could fall apart if you used noise aversion with it.

There is also nothing harmless about head collars - they ARE aversive otherwise they wouldn't work. That's not to say they are a bad tool (though one I would be least likely to use) but as a dog trainer you really need to be aware of why the tools and methods you are using work. Nothing irritates me more than trainers who try to claim head collars are harmless or aren't aversive. You can damage and injure a dog on a head collar and I'd actually suggest it could happen easier than it would on a prong.

[Bec]

my mum wont let me try a prong on blaze because of how it looks - im curious tho if we WERE to try 1 - when he sees a cat or another dog he pulls like mad - and can end up choking himself - (which also helps that he wears a harness so i can grab the lead handle that end rather than the handle the end his collar is - so anyway my question is - wouldnt the prong choke/hurt/dig into his neck when he sees another dog OR would a quick check - actually keep him walking n have him not want to drag me over to eat said cat/dog ??

Training him in that instance would involve a specific behaviour modification program, a prong may or may not be used (it's not about the tool training him but what tool will give you the leverage needed to handle him to implement any behaviour modification), but under the guidance of a behaviourist you wouldn't have him in a position where he crosses his threshold that severely anyway.

[Staceybob]

Nothing irritates me more than trainers who try to claim head collars are harmless or aren't aversive. You can damage and injure a dog on a head collar and I'd actually suggest it could happen easier than it would on a prong.

Each trainer to their own Bec. I have never had a problem training a dog using head collars effectively nor have any of the dogs I have worked with gotten hurt through the use of a head collar.

Each client is different and will be treated as such - if I felt a dog really isn't going to take to using a head collar - I wont use one, and that's for me to judge.

But along with my own opinion of prongs and what my contract states - I will not be providing prong training. I have done a lot of reading on them and have heard they are apparently safe when used correctly, but as the RSPCA and Kennel Club are trying to get prongs banned in the UK, and the other reason of my contract, I will do no more than discuss them with someone if they came to me, I would tell them I've heard they can be safe but I cannot recommend.

As for you stating about the water and noise diversion, you are assuming that I would use these all dogs. My girl is a tough nut - nothing scares her. This is why I used these techniques on her. I am not in tunnel vision and focused on one set of training - I have several methods to everything I look at through my own trial and research, so please do not assume that I am some lazy trainer that is not putting work in - because I am studying and I am studying a lot.

Stacey xxx

[snowpups]

Bec it all about the way you use the tool I have been to lots of different dog and puppy classes over here and there is no harm in using water or a rattle bottle I use a rattle bottle ti distract my ice when he was a pup he wasn't scared of it at all he still likes it now as he get a reward after it. So if shaking a bottle is harmful so are most of the trainers round here. And when shake the dog treat boxes does that mean I'm hurting them as its the same sound. I use headcollars on mine and will do if it helps me. My gsd is learning to be a seizure alert dog for my seizures as she can tell when I'm goin to have one and after one they use headcollars on them does that mean I shouldn't put one on her even know she meant to wear one in shops and places like that.

[Bec]

Each trainer to their own Bec. I have never had a problem training a dog using head collars effectively nor have any of the dogs I have worked with gotten hurt through the use of a head collar.

You'd be surprised what a qualified animal chiropractor will find if examining a lot of the dogs who have been wearing head collars, especially ones prone to lunging.

I have never seen nor heard of a problem with anyone using prongs properly, so I really find your insinuation that head collars are somehow safer quite redundant.

But along with my own opinion of prongs and what my contract states - I will not be providing prong training. I have done a lot of reading on them and have heard they are apparently safe when used correctly, but as the RSPCA and Kennel Club are trying to get prongs banned in the UK, and the other reason of my contract, I will do no more than discuss them with someone if they came to me, I would tell them I've heard they can be safe but I cannot recommend.

Unless using a certain method or tool violates the law then it's your choice as a trainer to abide by the ruling of an organisation like that. If the RSPCA suddenly turned around and declared a method or tool you and your clients have had a lot of success with, what are you going to do? Will you still allow them to dictate how you should train your dogs and how your clients should train their dogs even when you know it is in their best interest?

As for you stating about the water and noise diversion, you are assuming that I would use these all dogs. My girl is a tough nut - nothing scares her. This is why I used these techniques on her. I am not in tunnel vision and focused on one set of training - I have several methods to everything I look at through my own trial and research, so please do not assume that I am some lazy trainer that is not putting work in - because I am studying and I am studying a lot.

I'm not assuming that at all (that you are lazy trainer OR that you use those methods on all dogs). I am responding to your sweeping statement that spraying a dog with water and using aversive sounds as training methods are "harmless". They aren't harmless. They are aversive. Otherwise they wouldn't work. As a trainer it is vital that you understand why the methods you are implementing work. I am by no means telling you that you should use prong collars but you need to be realistic about the methods you DO use. Spraying a dog with water or using a loud sound to interrupt behaviour is not distracting them, it is applying an aversive (something the dog doesn't like and finds unpleasant) to get them to stop the behaviour. You using positive punishment - by applying those things you are intending to associate something negative with the behaviour so the dog is less likely to repeat it.

[Staceybob]

I am going to stop posting because in my opinion you are insulting me and the positively scheme ran across the UK.

If you want to use prongs, that's up to you but I can gain success with just a collar and lead.

A responsible and real trainer as you call it would do what's best for the dog, and that's what's in my heart.

Stacey xxx

[Bec]

I am going to stop posting because in my opinion you are insulting me and the positively scheme ran across the UK.

I am not intending to insult you, I am questioning what you've posted because it doesn't make sense to me and I want to understand where you are coming from - I also feel strongly that if you want to be a dog trainer you should be able to explain the theory behind why you have posted what you have posted. How else do we learn if we do not question what we think we know

If you want to use prongs, that's up to you but I can gain success with just a collar and lead.

Actually, I don't use prongs on my dogs and I never have. In fact with my youngest dog who I train intensively for competition, I don't so much as use any physical corrections with her - she wears a flat collar only but most of our training is done off leash

Once again Stacey - as I said before - as a dog trainer what YOU are capable of is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what you can get your clients to do, and you will meet many average pet owners who do not have the skill necessary to be able to train to the standard that you do. Imagine having a client who comes to you in desperation - a last ditch effort to fix their dog or they will have it PTS. They aren't going to have the time nor patience to plug away at something for days or weeks or months - they need to see straight away in that first consult that the methods you use can get results and quickly. That's why dog trainers need to be flexible with the methods they use because every dog and handler is different as are their circumstances and it isn't about what YOU as a handler can do but what you can get each dog owner to do with their dog.

[Staceybob]

I never said its about me as I said above I would adjust the methods I teach per client as they are all different.

That's it from me, got a show today so I'm off.

Stacey xxx

[Elyse]

do you fine it rips the fur? it completely ruined kiras

Not at all; you're supposed to swing it around so the chain part is behind his neck while you're walking.

Then, when he starts to pull or go to the side to try to mark his territory, I give him a quick jerk to the side (by flicking my wrist, really) and he stops whatever behaviour I want him to stop. But sometimes he's in a 'husky mood' and he just WANTS to go over and smell that tree - when that happens he digs in with all fours and I'm flailing to keep my balance and to not fall over.

Suka's fur is a lot thicker and longer around his neck area (normal for Sibes? Or no?) so maybe that provides extra cushion?

[persephona]

Obviously, each training program should be tailored specifically for each dog, so you wouldn't

use a certain tool on a dog that cannot stand it, however, in essence, all these tools are meant to cause some sort of discomfort for the dog, including other methods mentioned like noise avertion or water squirting. Just how exactly can the "harmlessness" of a tool be measured? Everything is dog specific and I don't think it is very objective to state that one method is more harmless than another, it all depends on the dog you are working with.

For example, with my dog, I feel the prong is safer and better tolerated than the headcollar.

I am not advocating not using any of these tools here, I am just saying that it is impossible to say, on a general level, that one is worse/more harmful than the other.

[Sid_Wolf]

Not at all; you're supposed to swing it around so the chain part is behind his neck while you're walking.

Then, when he starts to pull or go to the side to try to mark his territory, I give him a quick jerk to the side (by flicking my wrist, really) and he stops whatever behaviour I want him to stop. But sometimes he's in a 'husky mood' and he just WANTS to go over and smell that tree - when that happens he digs in with all fours and I'm flailing to keep my balance and to not fall over.

Suka's fur is a lot thicker and longer around his neck area (normal for Sibes? Or no?) so maybe that provides extra cushion?

i had it at the back of her neck aswell, it just never worked for me, maybe it was too loose or something, i cant remember it was at least a year ago, probably longer now!

[Elyse]

i had it at the back of her neck aswell, it just never worked for me, maybe it was too loose or something, i cant remember it was at least a year ago, probably longer now!

Yeah - it probably was too loose. I usually keep Suka's collar tight enough so I can fit 1.5 fingers in between the collar and him - any looser than that and the collar is not effective at all.