Bec Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 No. It's not about how it looks, it's not even about the tool. It's about uneducated people who've never used the tool using it to prop up their own agendas. Studies prove that prongs are a far safer tool than check chains, and head collars can cause damage to a dogs neck and spine. I can't stand that any of these tools are so readily available for people to buy and slap on their dogs without knowing how to use them. I am glad that prongs aren't as readily available because it means people will be more likely to research how to use them. Anyway Stacey - if you are really interested in dog training, go out and get experience with prong collars then you can make an educated decision on whether or not you'd use or recommend the tool rather than guessing or making assumptions like you are doing now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I've never seen a dog put on a prong collar roll around desperately trying to get it off like many dogs do with head collars. IMO the biggest reason for this is that prong collars only cause discomfort for the second the correction is applied whereas head collars are constantly aversive whether or not the dog needs a correction because the straps are always putting pressure on the dogs facial nerves. This plays a big roll in the effectiveness of the tool too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arooroomom Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 @Staceybob I can understand your aversion to the prong collar. It's a scary looking thing initially. You can choose to not like it or disagree with it all you want, there are many trainers who dislike it. But what I cannot understand is why a head collar is more widely accepted and encouraged when nearly every dog i've ever seen wearing one simply cannot wait to have it taken off. My dogs get so excited when the prong comes out. It means they're going to work and learn. If we're talking about comfort of the dog, i'd rather pick the one my dogs don't mind wearing rather than the one they're slamming their heads on the floor to get off. But if you can get the same results with other methods, then fine! All dogs learn differently. But I really dislike how the prong is regarded as cruel rather than just another training tool. A properly fitted prong collar with a properly competent owner will not cause harm or distress. I've even been starting to work with Cheyenne on the prong and she's beginning to blossom with it. This is a dog who used to not be able to handle being told "No." Seriously, I don't think i've ever seen such a fragile dog. But the prong coupled with tugging exercises has created a new dog! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staceybob Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Im not guessing or making assumptions, I am asking questions but I feel like I'm being a bit ganged up on here and that you're calling me uneducated for quite frankly something I personally wouldn't buy. I have a happy dog who walks on a standard collar so I don't need that kind of tool, and to be quite frank; I don't think my clients would be happy if I used prong collars. If prong collars are so wonderful and dont cause harm, then the dog industry in the UK needs to publicise that more by putting it in stores and using them at shows. I can't exactly get experience with prong collars if they are no where to be seen other than buying them from abroad, which I am not going to do. So until I free access to one to try out on myself, I will never publicise the use of them because in the UK it looks seriously bad on the trainer. The point in me being a dog trainer is to stop people from causing injury to their dogs with tools - and I know I can help them achieve loose leash walking with out the use of prong collars. Someone a page ago said agree to disagree, so I really think we should. Stacey xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 the issue with them being freely avaliable is then it would be used incorrectly, and as i've already said, if you string a dog up by one and rag it about, yea its gunna hurt. So no i dont think it does need to be in shops or advertised, you can just imagine it cant you, all the chavlets walking around with their 'ard staffy innit, look at 'is collar bruv! it only looks bad on the trainer because people are so close minded, just because it looks harsh, when it actually isnt. you can get them in the UK, try ebay so they're not that hidden away, just not in the main public eye i guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Im not guessing or making assumptions, I am asking questions but I feel like I'm being a bit ganged up on here and that you're calling me uneducated for quite frankly something I personally wouldn't buy. I have a happy dog who walks on a standard collar so I don't need that kind of tool, and to be quite frank; I don't think my clients would be happy if I used prong collars. If prong collars are so wonderful and dont cause harm, then the dog industry in the UK needs to publicise that more by putting it in stores and using them at shows. I can't exactly get experience with prong collars if they are no where to be seen other than buying them from abroad, which I am not going to do. So until I free access to one to try out on myself, I will never publicise the use of them because in the UK it looks seriously bad on the trainer. The point in me being a dog trainer is to stop people from causing injury to their dogs with tools - and I know I can help them achieve loose leash walking with out the use of prong collars. But the point is, if you are that interested in dog training, you should go out of your way to educate yourself about as many training tools and methods as you can. I know that I do! What if you have a client who rocks up to a consult with a prong collar on their dog? How can you advise them if you have no practical experience with the tool? Being a good trainer is not about doing what you think will look good in the name of publicity. It is about getting results for your clients. Every experienced dog trainer I know could train 99% of dogs to walk on a loose leash quickly on a flat collar but not all dog owners have the skill to do the same. What you can do is irrelevant. I'm not saying that you should use prongs, but if you want to be a dog trainer IMO you have a responsibility to your clients to educate yourself as much as possible so you know you are giving your clients the best knowledge and service possible. Prong collars have been scientifically proven to be one of the lowest risk, safest tools out there - so I don't understand how you can imply that using them would cause injury to your clients dogs? Any tool can cause injury when used improperly. IMO I see a higher risk of injury when using tools like head collars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Im not guessing or making assumptions, I am asking questions but I feel like I'm being a bit ganged up on here and that you're calling me uneducated for quite frankly something I personally wouldn't buy. I have a happy dog who walks on a standard collar so I don't need that kind of tool, and to be quite frank; I don't think my clients would be happy if I used prong collars. If prong collars are so wonderful and dont cause harm, then the dog industry in the UK needs to publicise that more by putting it in stores and using them at shows. I can't exactly get experience with prong collars if they are no where to be seen other than buying them from abroad, which I am not going to do. So until I free access to one to try out on myself, I will never publicise the use of them because in the UK it looks seriously bad on the trainer. The point in me being a dog trainer is to stop people from causing injury to their dogs with tools - and I know I can help them achieve loose leash walking with out the use of prong collars. Someone a page ago said agree to disagree, so I really think we should. Stacey xxx But in earlier posts Stacey you instantly said you would never use one and thats a decision you have made without using one or seeing one being used. tbh its an attitude like one your presenting that reinforces the idea that prong collars seriously harm or injure the Dog, which is pretty far from the the truth. So if someone comes to you with their dog, whos properly tried things like head collars, but the dog is going mental over it, the owner is worried the dog will hurt itself and the dog hasn't responded to other training methods. Are you going to turn the client away because you don't like the IDEA of prong Collars? Surely its better to go out of your way to try and test it, So that you have ALL available options for your clients? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 ok guys, quit ganging up on Stacey, not everyone like prongs, which is a shame if they havent tried them but i dont think arguing is gunna make her think differently about them, right Stace? She prefers head collars, we prefer prongs, we can agree to disagree im sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kells xx Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 people have different tolls that have helped their dogs.....not everyone likes or agrees... i tend to stay away from these threads as they can get heated quickly, at a glance this seems to be heading in a horrible way against stacey ok yes she is a dog trainer and she doesnt like prong collars most people dont like cesar milan or victoria stillwell but they dont rip her apart on a family forum for having different views lets remember why we are here a new member may read this and be unhappy with the way people are being treated for their own opinions kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staceybob Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I would never use one because I wouldn't need to and also as a member of the kcai I have signed that I will never endorse in such methods. If someone wanted to use one I would have to turn them away if they wouldn't agree to abiding by the kcai regulations. I would like to help people not have to use one which is what the kcai promotes and I want to promote too. Stacey xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 A very bold statement to make. I would hope that you would either try one urself or see one in use though at some point in time. Admittedly I was slightly dubious about it, until I saw Sids boy Grey in it, he looked comfortable, happy, But not pulling nearly as much as usual! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I would never use one because I wouldn't need to and also as a member of the kcai I have signed that I will never endorse in such methods. If someone wanted to use one I would have to turn them away if they wouldn't agree to abiding by the kcai regulations Not "ripping you apart" Stacey as has been suggested. But I don't understand what you mean when you say "such methods" in reference to prong collars. You would let you clients use head collars no-pull harnesses, yes? Then I don't see the difference between using those tools and using a prong. They work on the same principle. You haven't answered my earlier question btw - what if you had a client who came to use with a prong on their dog and you couldn't advise them because you've never used one or had any experience with one? I think it's a genuine shame that someone who wants to be a dog trainer refuses to educate themselves about as many methods and tools as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 my mum wont let me try a prong on blaze because of how it looks - im curious tho if we WERE to try 1 - when he sees a cat or another dog he pulls like mad - and can end up choking himself - (which also helps that he wears a harness so i can grab the lead handle that end rather than the handle the end his collar is - so anyway my question is - wouldnt the prong choke/hurt/dig into his neck when he sees another dog OR would a quick check - actually keep him walking n have him not want to drag me over to eat said cat/dog ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 As far as I'm aware the correction is applied automatically, if you stay still and he pulls, it should prod him the neck, which in turn should stop him pulling . Though someone like Sid or Bec will give you a better explanation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 dont get me wrong - he is pretty good and will ignore most dogs when i do check him by his collar or harness but sometimes when he sees certain dogs - like the 1 that charged at him offlead - he goes mental as he remembers them n hates um Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 haha he wants revenge! Bless him! . Yeah I'm not to sure, I think it may help, But someone with abit more experience would give you a more definative answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kechara Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Jake used to bolt for cats while walking; it only took him one experience of trying that on the prong to realize its not a good idea x.x I felt really bad about it, he gave a small yelp but he hasn't done it again and is still perfectly ok with wearing the collar. That's been the only time I've seen him in discomfort with it though. Usually I keep a look out for cats and squirrels and just hold him closer so he can't really run for them. This cat just happened to be behind a tree and ran when it saw Jake For poor Stacey - I don't think anyone has meant to gang up on you, just trying to help you understand we're not torturing our dogs with prongs :eek: I'm sure most of us here know and can spot when our pups are in pain or stressed simply because we know them; I bet you can no problem with Aleu! When the above happened with Jake I felt awful, but also know he probably would've been in pain in any other tool listed here too in the same situation. Everyones got their own way of training though, from using no tool at all to head collars and prongs, and it seems you've done a fine job with Aleu As for making them more popular in the UK, I would definitely hope they don't just throw them up on shelves in public stores - what Sid described with staffys is absolutely true too Every poor pit bull I see has a damn prong around it's neck to make them look more intimidating or something stupid. If they were to be more used over there I hope its through actual dog trainers helping clients with them and teaching them how to properly use it. I'm sure if you would like to take a chance with one to see how it works and such, someone over there can help you out! Or maybe even here in the US, just throw it over the lake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staceybob Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Not "ripping you apart" Stacey as has been suggested. But I don't understand what you mean when you say "such methods" in reference to prong collars. You would let you clients use head collars no-pull harnesses, yes? Then I don't see the difference between using those tools and using a prong. They work on the same principle. You haven't answered my earlier question btw - what if you had a client who came to use with a prong on their dog and you couldn't advise them because you've never used one or had any experience with one? I think it's a genuine shame that someone who wants to be a dog trainer refuses to educate themselves about as many methods and tools as possible. I am not refusing to educate myself in them - I am saying I would trial one on myself if I had access to one to try. When I say "Such Methods" I am simply referencing to what my agreement with the KCAI states. The Kennel Club Accredited Instructors Scheme asks that you sign to agree to using positive reinforcement, and prong collars in the kennel club and RSPCAs eyes are not deemed as positive methods, and so I cannot recommend or use them. Stacey xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 neither is squirting a dog with water, using noise aversion, or using tools like headcollars, are the KC ok with that?? I take it this scheme is the same as the accredited breeder scheme? anyone can pay their money and become one? no test/inspection? Genuine interest btw, as i know nothing about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staceybob Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 neither is squirting a dog with water, using noise aversion, or using tools like headcollars, are the KC ok with that?? Water is harmless, Noise Diversion is harmless, You use these to distract the dog and then they get a reward - therefore positive reinforcement training with the use of a light consequence. Head collars when used properly are also harmless, it irritates me how many people use them in the wrong way - all of these things are no different from what Victoria Stilwell uses who runs the Positively Campaign across the globe and the KCAI does allow these forms of training as they are positive based. No actually, the KCAI requires that you complete units and then take a written and practical exam to become an accreditted instructor. I'm finding this particularly insulting now that you are stooping to the level of suggesting my methods are cruel. As you said earlier, agree to disagree - My contract with the KCAI says I wont use them - so I wont. Not much else to say about it really. If I got the opportunity to try one on myself, I would. Stacey xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arooroomom Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 C'mon guys let's relax. There are many trainers out there who will not use things such as e-collars, prongs, or anything like them. Stacey I hope you get experience a prong in your training career so that you can make a well rounded decision about it and create your own opinion, not by just reading what some organization suggests. There is nothing wrong with how you're going about this, as I said there are many who won't use/recommend them. I just hope you can see that it's a tool that is used just as much as water diversion and head collars are tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyse Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Each to his own, I guess. Don't want to start an argument on here so we'll just agree to disagree, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 No actually, the KCAI requires that you complete units and then take a written and practical exam to become an accreditted instructor. I'm finding this particularly insulting now that you are stooping to the level of suggesting my methods are cruel. Stacey xxx calm down hun, i never said they were cruel, I said they were aversive (which they technically are, even if harmless, positive punishment I think is the quadrent (is that right?)) I was only interested in the scheme thing as i'd never heard of it before, and figured that as their various other schemes arent worth the effort (Accredited breeder is the one im thinking of atm) I didnt know if this one was either. But its good that you do actually have to take a test, at least then the people on the scheme actually have to work for it, and prove themselves worthy (which you obviously have, and well done for that) I like victoria stillwell, always have, but at the same time im not going to limit my options for training just because people dont agree with it. When we meet up i'll let you see the prong, and you can then make your own judgement on it. As above, i wasnt implying that you/your methods are cruel, mearly asking questions about your KC thingy, so i'd appreciate it if you didnt bite my head off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staceybob Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Ok thanks for that. I didn't mean to come accross as biting your head off, so in that, I'm sorry. Stacey xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted June 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 and me too, for coming across as putting you/your methods down yoooooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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