Training tool DISCUSSION

[Sid_Wolf]

no they're not, the canny collar does exactly that, applies pressure, it doesnt guide the head in any way shape or form, thats haltis

[Elyse]

I need to try one of these on myself or something because I can hardly see as how a tool that just "pokes" your dog would make them walk a billion times nicer. I'm sorry but there's got to be something about prong collars that makes them such a last resort and have had the ability to cause great mental distress to dogs in the past.

Yes the mental distress is usually caused through over use of the collar, but initially to get such dramatic results with dogs there must be something about those collars that isn't nice.

Stacey xxx

It might be an instinctual/defense response from the dogs, then. If you think about it, the collar is on the neck, right? Even if the dog only feels a poke or a slight pressure, it is on their throat area.

Think about it. Predators attack the throat (with a few rare exceptions for predator species). If your dog suddenly felt a pressure on their throat area, they might freak out because instinct would be telling them the pressure is actually teeth (when it is in fact not.). They might become paranoid that the 'teeth' will get them again; this will make them unstable and more prone to fear-biting.

That's what I think, anyways. It seems to make sense to me.

[Sid_Wolf]

It might be an instinctual/defense response from the dogs, then. If you think about it, the collar is on the neck, right? Even if the dog only feels a poke or a slight pressure, it is on their throat area.

Think about it. Predators attack the throat (with a few rare exceptions for predator species). If your dog suddenly felt a pressure on their throat area, they might freak out because instinct would be telling them the pressure is actually teeth (when it is in fact not.). They might become paranoid that the 'teeth' will get them again; this will make them unstable and more prone to fear-biting.

That's what I think, anyways. It seems to make sense to me.

but dogs put pressure on the throat area with normal collars, so wouldnt that do the same?

It can escalate agression (if its already there) or cause it, but only if its used wrong, I had grey on it at a meet last weekend and he was fine, till another dog went for him (but he never backs down from a fight anyway so i highly doubt thats due to the prong), so it didnt make any difference to him around other dogs. So im assuming thats if you use it wrong, I.E harsh corrections

[James]

It might be an instinctual/defense response from the dogs, then. If you think about it, the collar is on the neck, right? Even if the dog only feels a poke or a slight pressure, it is on their throat area.

Think about it. Predators attack the throat (with a few rare exceptions for predator species). If your dog suddenly felt a pressure on their throat area, they might freak out because instinct would be telling them the pressure is actually teeth (when it is in fact not.). They might become paranoid that the 'teeth' will get them again; this will make them unstable and more prone to fear-biting.

That's what I think, anyways. It seems to make sense to me.

Thats how they would discipline each other in the wild though, even at an early age, mother's will teeth their cubs to correct an unwanted behavior if a growl or look does not work.

as they grow older also, the older more mature pack members will bite and pin them to teach them.

[Elyse]

but dogs put pressure on the throat area with normal collars, so wouldnt that do the same?

It can escalate agression (if its already there) or cause it, but only if its used wrong, I had grey on it at a meet last weekend and he was fine, till another dog went for him (but he never backs down from a fight anyway so i highly doubt thats due to the prong), so it didnt make any difference to him around other dogs. So im assuming thats if you use it wrong, I.E harsh corrections

I don't think so. If you look at a prong and a regular collar, the prong's 'teeth' are apart from each other. So the dog would feel pressure 'points' on his neck. But, with a regular collar, the pressure is evenly throughout the neck, no pressure points, so thus the dog won't feel as 'threatened'?

And using the prong collar correctly is a must, yes, but even when used correctly it isn't the right tool for some dogs. (Some dogs would be overly timid, or maybe they were bit in the throat before, etc, etc.)

[Elyse]

Thats how they would discipline each other in the wild though, even at an early age, mother's will teeth their cubs to correct an unwanted behavior if a growl or look does not work.

as they grow older also, the older more mature pack members will bite and pin them to teach them.

(sorry for the double post)

Yes, but the mother wolf (or dog, in this case) would grab them by the scruff and not by the throat. And, even then, the pup would know the mother isn't attacking them. They know when they are in danger - and their instinct reacts accordingly.

The throat is a very sensitive area for some dogs.

And, that other scenario is related to dominance in wolves (and some dogs also). The one on top (pinning the other wolf) would be expressing their dominance over the one underneath. At that point, the more submissive one would probably show their belly/throat displaying active submissive (as opposed to passive submission.)

[James]

(sorry for the double post)

Yes, but the mother wolf (or dog, in this case) would grab them by the scruff and not by the throat. The throat is a very sensitive area for some dogs.

And, that other scenario is related to dominance in wolves (and some dogs also). The one on top (pinning the other wolf) would be expressing their dominance over the one underneath. At that point, the more submissive one would probably show their belly/throat displaying active submissive (as opposed to passive submission.)

Exactly, though, If you have a very dominant dog and powerful dog, you need to asstertain dominance over them.

But like you said its dependant on the dog, some dogs it will get the desired results without inflicting any pain or fear trauma, Others it will, Thats why with any of these tools you really a) of course need to know how to use them, Know your dog and how they will most likely react to such methods.

[Bec]

All of the tools listed are aversive to dogs including head collars.

Stacey - yes they may look like a head halter for a horse but the point many people miss is that a dogs skeletal structure is completely different to a horse's, as is the placement of nerves on the dogs face. Make no mistake that many dogs find head collars highly aversive and that they work completely differently on dogs than they do on horses.

Prongs collars work well because the prongs are sit evenly against the dogs neck which means that the correction is applied more evenly than it is with other tools and that it also takes a lot less pressure for the dog to give itself a correction.

[Bob & Juno]

I have had great results with the prong collar, It really helped with control, I didnt use it at first because of the look of it, but once I got past that, I found it worked great, and yes I tried it on my arm and pulled it as hard as I could with no pain at all. The main thing is that y0u need to fit it to your dog so it will work right.

[derekvan]

im lovin the prong collar, huge improvement from constantly pulling to being able to drop the leash and having her walk beside me in 2 walks! (unless there is a cat, bird, or other person..) but still.... huge improvement.

[Staceybob]

no they're not, the canny collar does exactly that, applies pressure, it doesnt guide the head in any way shape or form, thats haltis

Have you used a canny collar? I have and it definately guides the head if you use it properly.

All tools are going to give a form of pressure.

Someone send me a prong collar seriously, because at the moment I am failing to see how these cannot cause discomfort and I refuse to pay for one I will never use.

Stacey xxx

[Sid_Wolf]

well yea, used it for ages, and I fail to see how something which does up behind the head can change the direction of the head (like a halter)

I havent got a spare one or I would. but let me ask you something, do you really think that me, Gigi, Becky and all the other responsible owners on here would actually hurt our dogs?

[James]

well yea, used it for ages, and I fail to see how something which does up behind the head can change the direction of the head (like a halter)

I havent got a spare one or I would. but let me ask you something, do you really think that me, Gigi, Becky and all the other responsible owners on here would actually hurt our dogs?

Indeed, Have you read the posts Stacey? there are several explaining why Prong collars don't actually cause discomfort, the benefits of them etc?

You have to remember, these explanations are based on experience and knowledge, not based on assumptions and judgement from what it looks like

[Removed #1]

Check chains Haven't used see below

Half checks Haven't used see below

Prong collars Just starting to try, after I finally got it fitted okay it made a huge difference. I'm 5 1/2 months pregnant, and am taking toddler with me now when I take Fox out for walks due to husband working out of state. He's catching on that when I say...eh eh, just before he's about to pull the leash taught and start tugging that he should stop and go a bit slower.

Headcollars like canny collars (behind the head) Anything that goes over the muzzle after a month of slow introduction, and mass rewards still results in Fox jumping into the air...and smashing his head into the ground repeatedly in an attempt to remove it. You would think that after a few painful attempts being met with failure he would give up...but no. For his safety and concerns that he would really hurt himself we've stopped trying to use any sort of training aide that goes over his muzzle.

Headcollars like haltis (under the chin) Anything that goes over the muzzle after a month and a half of slow introduction, and mass rewards for tolerating it being on still results in Fox jumping into the air...and smashing his head into the ground repeatedly in an attempt to remove it. You would think that after a few painful attempts being met with failure he would give up...but no. For his safety and concerns that he would really hurt himself we've stopped trying to use any sort of training aide that goes over his muzzle.

So yes haltis, and canny collar are presently not utilized...

Slip leads Haven't tried, have some concerns and those I'll list below.

We also use a walking harness that clips in the front for Fox...He does great with this when we go to stores, the vets, etc...but on walks around the neighborhood when he see's something that gets his attention/uber excitement/prey drive/pick any of the above theres an abundance of stimuli now that summers here he pulls like mad. Not just a little bit of pulling but enough that despite using multiple techniques...changing directions, stopping, redirection, rewarding for calm behavior...he will have none of it. That thing he wants is oh so much more important than anything I have...

When I say pulls like mad I mean pulls hard enough that when he's wearing a flat ordinary collar he does it hard enough to make himself vomit. I haven't seen that with the Prong yet, and with his walking harness he's recently started going nuts for little kids who are everywhere right now...not the 'I want to eat you' nuts...but the OMG attention, new, shiny pet meeeeeeee' attention. For these reasons we generally tend to avoid the ordinary check, half check or slip collar...but I hope sometime in the future we'll be able to move towards less restrictive aides...taking it a little at a time right now.

So yes at this juncture in time, when I don't use the prong...you have a large waddling woman with a toddler in tow who is in varying degrees of cooperation with a dog hopping like a kangaroo on harness. This image just gets worse when I try to pick up poop...

Only recently started using the prong...as I said and only more recently got it fitted right...so its promising, but we'll see how in the bit longer sorts of things it works out. He was also neutered last week, and I know it takes a bit for the hormones to die down in his system, but he's also still very young and has a bit of time to go before he passes the puberty sort of rawr phase of things. I'm fairly certain that he's situationally aware of differing environments and training tools because of the difference in behavior from walking around the neighborhood and in familiar places vs. going to the vets, a store, etc...and after we're back to well behaved walks in the neighborhood we'll work on transitioning back to just the walking harness...not sure how it'll go but I'm not wanting the prong as a permanent solution.

When he does running with his harness...he's still the happiest lil dog on all the planet

That rambling turned out a bit longer than I'd thought it would...ah well...there's where I'm at with various training tools.

[Elyse]

Each to his own, I guess. Don't want to start an argument on here so we'll just agree to disagree, eh?

[Sid_Wolf]

Each to his own, I guess. Don't want to start an argument on here so we'll just agree to disagree, eh?

agreed

[Staceybob]

I havent got a spare one or I would. but let me ask you something, do you really think that me, Gigi, Becky and all the other responsible owners on here would actually hurt our dogs?

I don't think you intentionally would.

Stacey xxx

[Removed #1]

Have you used a canny collar? I have and it definately guides the head if you use it properly.

All tools are going to give a form of pressure.

Someone send me a prong collar seriously, because at the moment I am failing to see how these cannot cause discomfort and I refuse to pay for one I will never use.

Stacey xxx

I don't know if they have a petsmart or petco type store where you're at...but they have them here, and while I don't generally talk to the people at petsmart or petco because I'm just there for a certain thing and then leaving...they do have the Prong type collars there for you to actually get your hands on and touch and try out...The one I have has an emergency release latch as well so I'm not sure how similar it is to the ones they have on display...anywho...there's an option...

If they don't have those types of stores where you're at, maybe someone can suggest something similar?

[Sid_Wolf]

I don't think you intentionally would.

Stacey xxx

and you dont think i know what signs my dogs would show? trust me, if it was distressing or hurting them, i wouldnt be using them

[Sid_Wolf]

I don't know if they have a petsmart or petco type store where you're at...but they have them here, and while I don't generally talk to the people at petsmart or petco because I'm just there for a certain thing and then leaving...they do have the Prong type collars there for you to actually get your hands on and touch and try out...The one I have has an emergency release latch as well so I'm not sure how similar it is to the ones they have on display...anywho...there's an option...

If they don't have those types of stores where you're at, maybe someone can suggest something similar?

they're not as readily avaliable over here hun, you have to get them online

[Removed #1]

Oh that's dreadful...what a pain in the rump!!!

[Staceybob]

and you dont think i know what signs my dogs would show? trust me, if it was distressing or hurting them, i wouldnt be using them

Im not saying you are personally hurting your dogs Sid or that your dogs are hurt, what I am saying is that I fail to see how a collar like this would make any difference to extreme pullers if it wasnt causing great discomfort.

Stacey xxx

[Sid_Wolf]

The way I see it is, grey hates all headcollars, and the girls are overly impressed either, therefore they dont enjoy their walks, and neither do I. All of them are comfortable with this collar and much happier, no longer throwing themselves to the floor, rubbing against walls/bushes/fences or licking their lips all the time

[Bec]

IMO prong collars can be less aversive to dogs than head collars.

Stacey do you honestly believe that head collars cause no discomfort? Then why do most dogs hate wearing them?

Of course prongs are aversive and cause some level of discomfort when a correction is given but so do ALL tools mentioned in this thread.

[Staceybob]

IMO prong collars can be less aversive to dogs than head collars.

Stacey do you honestly believe that head collars cause no discomfort? Then why do most dogs hate wearing them?

Of course prongs are aversive and cause some level of discomfort when a correction is given but so do ALL tools mentioned in this thread.

I am not saying headcollars don't cause discomfort - I don't use a head collar on my girl remember.

Most dogs hate wearing them because they shove them on their dog and expect them to instantly take to it. You should slowly introduce a dog to a head collar same as you would a puppy with a collar and lead. Some dogs naturally will never take to them, same as plenty of dogs havent taken to prong collars.

My question is this - Why are prongs not readily available in the UK, yet in pretty much every pet store you can pick up standard collars, half checks and head collars? There's got to be some reasoning in why prongs are treated differently, and I don't think it's just about the look.

Stacey xxx