scott Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Research-plan how to go about training-be patient-if first method fails then adopt another method. cant stress enough the key elements is to stay calm, patient and focus on what it is you wish to achieve. This applies to anything in life, anything in life is achieveable if you go about it in the correct manner, as the saying goes rome was not built in one day!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyrayn Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 reply to Smeagle... to qoute Can Wolf : also when she does get outta control i just pin her to the ground till she calms down. aparently the mothers do this if the pup is being bad. once she has calmed down i just make her stay their untill i feel that she can go. at no point is it reffered that is what should be done.. as in my post all that has been said is what we do.... no mention of force or alpha roll... im not saying you cannot disagree with people or discuss things on forum.. what i was saying is that you were implying that is the method we were using when at no point had either of us stated that was the case... yes maybe the word "pin" could been left open to mis-interpretation , but i for one did not see the use of the word to imply force was used...or the alpha roll i am not disputing what you say about the use of the alpha roll.... what i was disputing is that your reply implied that is what Can Wolf and myself where using.... yes our comments were made before video had been put on.. so we did not have much to go on.. so therefore our comments / own techniques / or experience's is all we could discuss.. hence my reply below after seeing the video..... aw poor thing he just wants a fuss and play ..... didnt see any kind of aggression there at all... both mine do that ... i call it a husky drop kick.. and mine are a lot bigger... cant see anything there that cant be dealt with , without some training, and patience.. fun games etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Sorry if I misunderstood you, Richard, but to me saying that you pin your dog to the ground when they 'get out of control' doesn't leave much room for interpretation. Why would you need to pin them down if you weren't forcing them? What else does pinning your dog down mean other than forcefully holding them down? My dogs willing lie down for me, all I need to say is the command and they will do so. There is a big difference to commanding your dog to lie down, and pinning them to the ground and not letting them up until you feel like it. The alpha roll is pinning your dog to the ground, just like you see Cesar Milan doing quite often on his show. All it is, is another term for pinning your dog down. If you don't actually pin your dog to the ground, then I again I apologise, but regardless my original comments still stand, in case anyone else interpreted your comments in the same way I did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqwidge Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 i definitely agree with the not one method works for all dogs...with regards to Eika's biting, we have tried EVERYthing! swaping our arm for a toy, telling her no firmly, ignoring her, flicking her nose, pinning her down...but what has worked is grabbing her mouth....or pushing on her tongue/tickling the roof of her mouth...she doesn't like the discomfort... and this morning she was a licky baby and wanted to kiss us, yes she nibbled a bit, so i gave her a toy to soothe her gums... please don't give up on your pup, he wants to play and be loved...i know how scary it can be with children and an over-excited dog, Josh is only 1 yrs old and he has been knocked down by Eika (she's now 3 1/2 months) when she has gone on a mad run, but we move him out the way...last night was a prime example of how much she has matured in her short time with us, she was sleeping on the sofa and J was pulling her around and she didn't react, except the odd lick, a couple of weeks ago she would have bit him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberianandy Posted April 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 i definitely agree with the not one method works for all dogs...with regards to Eika's biting, we have tried EVERYthing! swaping our arm for a toy, telling her no firmly, ignoring her, flicking her nose, pinning her down...but what has worked is grabbing her mouth....or pushing on her tongue/tickling the roof of her mouth...she doesn't like the discomfort... and this morning she was a licky baby and wanted to kiss us, yes she nibbled a bit, so i gave her a toy to soothe her gums... please don't give up on your pup, he wants to play and be loved...i know how scary it can be with children and an over-excited dog, Josh is only 1 yrs old and he has been knocked down by Eika (she's now 3 1/2 months) when she has gone on a mad run, but we move him out the way...last night was a prime example of how much she has matured in her short time with us, she was sleeping on the sofa and J was pulling her around and she didn't react, except the odd lick, a couple of weeks ago she would have bit him... well suka is nearly 5 months now and he has not calmed down at all. i think suka is a bad specimen of the breed i know every one will rip in to me and say i'm a bad owner and all that but suka will be advertised this week i have tryed my hardest. the other day suka lunged at both me and my wife snapping i know alot of of this is behavioural but i can not afford a behavourist. and can deffinately not afford to have this turn in to full blown agression as he is already showing signs and his training is going no where i take him evry week but he don't get any better. he is the same sort of hight as my children and can't have him snapping at there faces. i done my best for him and i can't do no more and it is not fair on us or him to keep him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 well suka is nearly 5 months now and he has not calmed down at all. i think suka is a bad specimen of the breed i know every one will rip in to me and say i'm a bad owner and all that but suka will be advertised this week i have tryed my hardest. the other day suka lunged at both me and my wife snapping i know alot of of this is behavioural but i can not afford a behavourist. and can deffinately not afford to have this turn in to full blown agression as he is already showing signs and his training is going no where i take him evry week but he don't get any better. he is the same sort of hight as my children and can't have him snapping at there faces. i done my best for him and i can't do no more and it is not fair on us or him to keep him. He's not a bad specimen of the breed - please do NOT blame this on the dog. I hope you find him a good, loving forever home. I think you are making the right decision for your family. But I strongly advise you to seriously consider that dog ownership may not be for you, if you consider owning a dog again down the track. If he is not desexed yet I also cannot stress enough to get him done before you rehome him, otherwise he may be a target for backyard breeders and puppy farmers. Sometimes BYBers or puppy farmers get families to pose as genuine buyers so that you don't realise the dog is going to a breeding farm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 ahhh he's just being a bastad! lol baltz used to do it all the time until we buried him in the garden, just get a really good shovel and dig 6ft, bury him for about 10 minutes and then put him in the freezer to cool off!!!! it worked for us:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 OKAY ...l didn't read the whole post haha...this is serius.....but listen and trust me, and don't think i haven't been nipped, mouthed, jumped on, barked at and ignored by balto. I know exactly what has happened here, you got babay suka and babied him, and dont try and deny it 'cos dont we all!!! I am a firm believer in training from day dot, as soon as alaska got home for the first time i made her sit and wait for her kibble. Suka is 5 months and basically he is getting aware of his balls, he's being domminant and im sure you have a weak link in the family who he thinks he can treat this way...you wife? or the kids? .. or both? We got balto at 5 months and he hadn't been trained in his life, he was fearful, over-crated, a fear biter, scared of kids, nuaghty, ignorant and all in all was really bad. Each time he barked at me for attention i said fuc* it to saying "no baltz" or "common boy! be a good boy eh?" >>> i pinned him down like cesar M does, i held the neck and his tummy, i said "HEY!!" pinned him down and made him stay there even when i moved my hands >>> he would yelp and scream, move as soon as i moved my hands and acted like i was killing him, then after a while he stopped yelping like a nutter and relised he was being punished!!! just dont stop when he yelps >> it's a cry to say "hey, i dont like this..stop!!" straight up i tapped him firmly on his nose and say what you want but when i was small and my mum slapped me on the bum or hand (:olol) no one called the police because i was being nuaghty >> it's not abuse and i never got anymore than a firm slap! so firmly tap his nose and say "HEY" >>> catch him and be quick >> your wife has to do this too... but please dont give him up...i know he's acting up but by 5 months he'll love you soo much now:confused: common ive been here, just give it a try huh? be firm, dont take any shi*, i have to say this is the one breed i wouldn't reccamend to the softies...huskies take the piss and they enjoy it, the love pushing buttons, my dog trainer (top in the UK) says he finds them great dogs but wouldn't touch them with a barge-pole, he finds them stuck up and ignorant, he said he likes a challenge but...lol and he says he respects people who say no to getting a sibe.....i know it's bad but if there's a weak-link he will take the piss.....like bark at you.. when he growls at you...say "HEY" (quickly..so as soon as it happens) and pin him down and growl yourself...your dealing with a dog remember, the alpha would do this, a growl is a warning for him not to move..if he does, tap his nose, put him back and growl at him >>>>> it works and balto is a super dog, he was a fearful dog when he came and now he respects, trust us and is confident >> it doesn't affect their confidence at all!!! if your not aggressive>> your energy must be calm...you do know 5 - 18months are the teenage months?? he's just growing and needs more training ___________ leave the house before him enter places with him behind you >> like the garden, house, parks..... make him sit and wait before he eats and pretend to eat from his bowl make him heel make him sit for everything from now on..he's not allowed on the sofa's or any beds >> this is for alpha's and respectful followers only!! ignore all whinning punish all bad behavour like growling and barking you could enrol him in some puppy classes, also you could get an e-collar, check them out, my trainer has put them on some puppies who don't listen when off-leash or show any agression to other dogs or humans, however he will always try the training methods first then the collar as a last resort!!! he is called John Uncle and is based in Musswell Hill near Hornsey >> north london Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 great reply Ice, added to rep. Really hope you can work on these things, as it says in my sig, Don't blame the wrong end of the lead. Then again - don't blame yourself either or he will pick up on this. You wouldn't give up on your kids if they had behaviouiral issues, my brother has severe brain damage and used to throw things at me as a child and hurt me, did my mum and dad give him up - no. Don't get me wrong, I know that an animal is different but they still have feelings all be it in a different capacity. I really hope you can work with him so that you can all live together, it's not easy but we're all here for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 bings barks alot too its never aggressive and sumtimes if u go too near his back leg he growls n whips his head round as if 2 snap but hes NEVER caused any damage 2 ANY1 he sounds viscious but it is just a warning i no him 2 well lool nix thats not too good either ya know:brick: >> baltz did this and this is bad behavour >> you should be able to touch him and snapping at you is unnaceptable >>> awwww he's talking to you, not being aggressive, they use their mouths more when they're little, kaiser does this with my now, you can definitely get through this we're all here to help and support you, come to the meet, would do him the world of good to socialise with others, he may pick up some good habbits? guys it's not awww, when you tell your dog "come" or "sit" or "no" and he barks at you like it's a game, it's very frustrating and the biting is all bad!!! there where lots of times when we where like is balto too much for us? but now he's fine after training the the behavour in the video was very bad >> not aggressive but he totally ignored them!! << in the doggy worl it was rude and disraspectful >> he should listen >> and he's only 5 months, soon it could easily become agression. i agree it's normal and all puppies go through it but i can see where he's coming from:rolleyes: and yup we are all here for you...give the training a try 'cos im telling you now if suka came to my house for a few weeks i could train him >>> he sounds just like balto but better lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 We got balto at 5 months and he hadn't been trained in his life, he was fearful, over-crated, a fear biter, scared of kids, nuaghty, ignorant and all in all was really bad. Each time he barked at me for attention i said fuc* it to saying "no baltz" or "common boy! be a good boy eh?" >>> i pinned him down like cesar M does, i held the neck and his tummy, i said "HEY!!" pinned him down and made him stay there even when i moved my hands >>> he would yelp and scream, move as soon as i moved my hands and acted like i was killing him, then after a while he stopped yelping like a nutter and relised he was being punished!!! just dont stop when he yelps >> it's a cry to say "hey, i dont like this..stop!!" I really umm'd and ahh'd over replying to this post because it really upset me. The last thing I would do to a fearful dog is confront it, bully it, and pin it on the ground until it screamed and cried out in fear or pain. I won't rehash the points I've already made in this thread about this very method, apart from adding that Cesar Milan himself says in his book (I have it right next to me!) that you should not try this method yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 great reply Ice, added to rep. Really hope you can work on these things, as it says in my sig, Don't blame the wrong end of the lead. Then again - don't blame yourself either or he will pick up on this. You wouldn't give up on your kids if they had behaviouiral issues, my brother has severe brain damage and used to throw things at me as a child and hurt me, did my mum and dad give him up - no. Don't get me wrong, I know that an animal is different but they still have feelings all be it in a different capacity. I really hope you can work with him so that you can all live together, it's not easy but we're all here for you thanks sara i just think people were a bit harsh >> i know what he's going through but i dont agree suka should be disposed of to be someone else's problem ..thus the cycle continues until his last stop will be a shelter my uncle has autism >>cnt spell soz, and back in the day the docters thought it was skitso.mdksnfke (??) and gave him electro treatment:confused: .. now at 40 he's in a home >> the best ever, he loves it, it's a modern house with other people, they go abroad every year, he's been to cyprus, spain, new york, florida, paris >>> it's the best for him and i think 'cos everyone stuck with it now he's having a nice life:laola: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 guys it's not awww, when you tell your dog "come" or "sit" or "no" and he barks at you like it's a game, it's very frustrating and the biting is all bad!!! there where lots of times when we where like is balto too much for us? but now he's fine after training the the behavour in the video was very bad >> not aggressive but he totally ignored them!! << in the doggy worl it was rude and disraspectful >> he should listen >> and he's only 5 months, soon it could easily become agression. I agree it's not cute, but to me it says more about the owner than the dog. Instead of thinking about ways to physically over power your dog as a way of showing him 'who's boss' - why not think about how YOU as the owner manage your relationship? How YOU as the alpha act as a leader in your day to day interactions with the dog? It is up to us as the owners to teach our dogs appropriate behaviour. Not everything can be simply put down to 'he's dominating you' or 'he's being aggressive' etc. Why not look at how we've taught the dog to respond the way we want them to? Why not look at our own handling skills? if you are doing everything right as an owner you shouldn't see so much bad behaviour. I had a dog who would growl and snap at me when I tried to move her off the lounge and physically confronting her and trying to overpower her made her worse because she saw it as a challenge she wanted to take me up on. It didn't get her to respect me, it didn't automatically make her see me as boss. That is something that is up to ME as the owner, as the alpha, to teach her! Instead I look at other ways to communicate with her. I looked at how I was managing her on a day to day basis. I changed the way I was handling her, I implemented things like NILIF, I taught her that as the alpha everything that is fun and exciting comes through me and I am the best thing in the world. Perhaps we should think less about our dogs challenging us and more about WHY they are challenging us and what we have done as owners to allow the dog to see themselves as higher than us the in pack. Pinning the dog to the ground and forcing it to obey is not going to make the dog WANT to obey. And I don't know about everyone else, but as the alpha of my "pack" my dogs don't only do what they are told, they do so because they want to, which is IMO the ultimate dog/owner relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I really umm'd and ahh'd over replying to this post because it really upset me. The last thing I would do to a fearful dog is confront it, bully it, and pin it on the ground until it screamed and cried out in fear or pain. I won't rehash the points I've already made in this thread about this very method, apart from adding that Cesar Milan himself says in his book (I have it right next to me!) that you should not try this method yourself. cesar has to say that, poor man has been sued so many times 'cos of cretins who don't use the method right....and it really uspet me that you called me a bully >> thats the last thing i did. Okay hear this out, we bathed balto and started grooming him, my mum did his head and gave him cheese and i did his legs, he didn't like it and started yelping ...? can you explain? when i was in training with my class and trainer balto was whinning so i was told to pick him up and hold his chest to calm him down...he again yelped like he was being murdered...my trainer said to ignore him and he stopped....is my trainer and my mum a bully then? although baltz was fearful he was very domminant and wasn't fearful of us, he snapped at kids once so i pinned him down and he yelped? im sure you know sibes are very vocal when it comes to this >> in my Sibe books in which i also have with me, it says >> if you get imbarassed a lot dont get a sibe, they yelp at the smallest of tugs on their leash in protest. how actually dare you call me, my family, and dog trainer a "bully" >>> my beautiful boy is lying by feet now relaxing, he is confident, playful, loving and loyal >> im sure you know huskies very well so answer this: would a bullied husky come back off -leash when he has a chance to get away? well balto and alaska do and i have used both techs with ...so what is that about???? why are my dogs so condifent and loyal eventhough they get bullied??? and i know when alaska was off-leash when little and would ignore me i got pissed off at her and she didn't come >> their intelligent, so i had to say well she's just a puppy, and soon enough she came back to a huge chunk of cheese for coming? now her ecall is 110% i belive in being firm but fair, each time they sit they get praised and treated >> or anything they do we like, my trainer say's the pinning down is actually just calming them down!! you really shouldn't judge other people's training methods, if balto was responding worse and acting more fearful or if my trainer said i shouldn't do it...i would stop like that! but balto enjoyed being a piss taker and then whinning..we used to let go 'cos we thought we hurt him...wrong move >> he was yelping in protest, now they hardly get put down there such good dogs, they are loved so much and no way do we bully them...maybe it would be the last thing YOU would do...and thats fine, but me, my family, trainer and cesar....are NOT you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 how actually dare you call me, my family, and dog trainer a "bully" >>> my beautiful boy is lying by feet now relaxing, he is confident, playful, loving and loyal >> im sure you know huskies very well so answer this: would a bullied husky come back off -leash when he has a chance to get away? well balto and alaska do and i have used both techs with ...so what is that about???? why are my dogs so condifent and loyal eventhough they get bullied??? and i know when alaska was off-leash when little and would ignore me i got pissed off at her and she didn't come >> their intelligent, so i had to say well she's just a puppy, and soon enough she came back to a huge chunk of cheese for coming? now her ecall is 110% i belive in being firm but fair, each time they sit they get praised and treated >> or anything they do we like, my trainer say's the pinning down is actually just calming them down!! you really shouldn't judge other people's training methods, if balto was responding worse and acting more fearful or if my trainer said i shouldn't do it...i would stop like that! but balto enjoyed being a piss taker and then whinning..we used to let go 'cos we thought we hurt him...wrong move >> he was yelping in protest, now they hardly get put down there such good dogs, they are loved so much and no way do we bully them...maybe it would be the last thing YOU would do...and thats fine, but me, my family, trainer and cesar....are NOT you! What would you call pinning a five month old puppy to the ground despite it's screams/yelps to get up? (your words). You are physically over powering him, pinning him to the ground, using your physical advantage to force him to submit. If this is not bullying the dog into submission then what would YOU call it? He certainly didn't submit willingly, did he? You said yourself he was fearful and a fear biter. I don't doubt you are a good dog owner, I just doubt this method that people see on a TV show and decide to copy for themselves. I also doubt that your positive relationship with your dog is due solely to this method The method, by the way, that I refer to as bullying - not YOU as a dog owner. Cesar says in his own book not to try the alpha roll yourself because there is so much room for error, if Cesar himself gets bitten when doing so... what do you think the chances of the average dog owner getting bitten are? I will comment on peoples training methods, just as people do on mine, when they post them on a public forum and leave them open for comment. I have no problem with aversive methods at all, I have no problem with compulsion when used properly either, and I believe all dogs should be able to be handled by their owners. What I don't believe is that the alpha roll is an appropriate way to teach this, nor do I believe it is a method that will gain the respect of your dog for you as the pack leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I wouldn't call them a bully thats for sure ..and you missed a few bits out? the yelping is a portest >> he wasn't in any pain, what don't you get about that? I saw it used on tv by cesar, i then went to a professional dog traininer who has been training dogs longer than you and has travelled the world doing so, he agrees with the method and said to give it a try with balto and see what happened, we asked if he was scared or in pain ..he said no he's PROTESTING!!! of course there's room for error, i dont go around on all 4's biting them and sniffing their arse's, im not trying to completely domminant them, im just doing as reccamened, and it worked!! that is the only situation in which we do use physical force and now all i have to say is down, and click to the ground. and no one said my good relationship with my sibes is down to this method, i think i have used on alaska 4 times in her whole life >> she didn't really need it, and yes this IS public forum...great observation...and again i didn't say you couldn't comment!!! You may think you know it all but no one bullies my dogs..end of, and i will take advice from one of the top UK trainers over you anyday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I wouldn't call them a bully thats for sure ..and you missed a few bits out? the yelping is a portest >> he wasn't in any pain, what don't you get about that? I saw it used on tv by cesar, i then went to a professional dog traininer who has been training dogs longer than you and has travelled the world doing so, he agrees with the method and said to give it a try with balto and see what happened, we asked if he was scared or in pain ..he said no he's PROTESTING!!! of course there's room for error, i dont go around on all 4's biting them and sniffing their arse's, im not trying to completely domminant them, im just doing as reccamened, and it worked!! that is the only situation in which we do use physical force and now all i have to say is down, and click to the ground. and no one said my good relationship with my sibes is down to this method, i think i have used on alaska 4 times in her whole life >> she didn't really need it, and yes this IS public forum...great observation...and again i didn't say you couldn't comment!!! You may think you know it all but no one bullies my dogs..end of, and i will take advice from one of the top UK trainers over you anyday! I didn't say it was from pain? How would I know that if I wasn't there to see it? I said the dogs could be reacting by yelping out of pain or fear not JUST from "dominance". Especially if you have a fearful pup who fear bites : And I love that it is once again back to about MY experience. Of course, I just pulled my opinions on dog training out of thin air. It's not from the number of behaviourists I have worked with and learned from, ALL who think the "alpha roll" is seriously flawed and dangerous. It's certainly not what I've learned from doing training packages, obedience club, a variety of canine dog sports or training workshops etc. Of course it's just my opinion I could give you the credentials of one of my dog trainers/behaviourists too - he travels country wide giving workshops, is booked out months in advance for consults, and specialises in canine aggression among other things. But what's the point? It's not going to change your opinion, is it? The fact is that when you post on a public forum, what you post is free to be commented on by other posters, I feel sick in the stomach every time someone recommends such a dangerous method over the net. As I posted above I TRIED this method with my own dog and it made her behaviour worse. Seeing as you know so much about it, want to enlighten me as to why? How would you feel if someone read your recommendation over the net, tried it with their own dog and got seriously bitten in the process? ETA: Seeing as your trainer travels world wide, feel free to PM me his name and I will look out for the next time he travels to my country so I can be sure to check out his methods for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 First of all, can I ask that we remove the use of CAPS in the posts to emphesise points. It comes across as extremely agressive and it quite frankly irritating. We are adults, and we can read. Secondly calling other members regardless of the word used is against the rules. Have opinions by all means but do not be aiming it at people. both of you calm down... Its a debate, not an arguement and if it becomes otherwise I'll just close the thread and have done with it. We are a nice natured forums and it is going to stay that way. ---------------------------------------------------- OK, on the debate.... I think if Andy doesnt feel he can cope the personally he is doing the right thing. I'm sorry but its not only human beings who can have 'issues' and to say that it is totally and utterly Andy is silly. That said I do agree there are things that you could do differently Andy. I had the same issue with being Alpha over dogs as I had quite a fear of them which has been overcome by having Kimba and Kaiser, plus Sarah to help me get into it properly. I'm still by no means perfect (Kimba ignores me at times lol) but getting there. It takes some serious commitment and persistance but it can be overcome. As for the pinning down issue. Smeagle, I think you forget that this is what would be done by the Alpha in the pack. Its putting the Animal into possition for submission not hurting them. I have done this only once (with Kaiser snapping at me over food), and I can honestly say it worked wonders. Kaiser actually is extremely well behaved for his age, and on top of that follows me about everywhere. Cant say he'd do that if I'd hurt him. Ya have to respect that there are more ways than 1 of dealing with animals and different people find that different things work better for them. If not this forum would not exist in the first place. Please bare that in mind when we post to topics such as this one. We have a a guy on here asking for advice, and you two are having a slanging match in the middle of it. Real good way to give advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 OK, on the debate.... I think if Andy doesnt feel he can cope the personally he is doing the right thing. I'm sorry but its not only human beings who can have 'issues' and to say that it is totally and utterly Andy is silly. I agree it is not all Andy, but that he may have a dog that does not match his lifestyle, one that is particularly demanding and difficult to handle. IMO there is less shame in admitting you made a mistake and that the dog is better off in another home (it takes guts to admit it!) and doing your best to find it a new home, than hanging onto the dog because you feel you have to. However I don't believe that there is such a thing as a bad dog. As for the pinning down issue. Smeagle, I think you forget that this is what would be done by the Alpha in the pack. Its putting the Animal into possition for submission not hurting them. I have done this only once (with Kaiser snapping at me over food), and I can honestly say it worked wonders. Kaiser actually is extremely well behaved for his age, and on top of that follows me about everywhere. Cant say he'd do that if I'd hurt him. It's an interesting point Marc that I actually commented on earlier in this thread. Because it's nearing midnight over here I will just be lazy and copy what I wrote earlier: It started when researchers were observing wolf packs. They saw more submissive pack members rolling over towards the alpha and this eventually translated into dog trainers thinking that alphas pinned other dogs down. In reality, the alpha dog does not need to pin a submissive pack member to the ground... the submissive dog will roll over of their own accord with no force on behalf of the alpha, the body language and known pack status of the alpha alone is enough for the lower pack member to submiss. A true alpha will never need to force another dog on the ground, because lower pack members will willing submit to them. It might be used between two lower pack members fighting for dominance and usually ends in the dismissal of the loser from the pack or the stronger member killing the weaker one. Ya have to respect that there are more ways than 1 of dealing with animals and different people find that different things work better for them. If not this forum would not exist in the first place. Please bare that in mind when we post to topics such as this one. We have a a guy on here asking for advice, and you two are having a slanging match in the middle of it. Real good way to give advice. Absolutely, and I apologise for it getting out of hand. I know I might get carried away sometimes but the alpha roll is just one thing I feel very strongly about as there is so much room for the handler to get bitten and the relationship with the dog to worsen. I have seen the bites people have sustained from trying this method which is why I feel so strongly about it being recommended, especially over the internet. I have no problem with aversive methods, and I am a big advocate for their use when appropriate. However I am always very careful if the topic of their use comes up to stress that they must be used under the guidance of an experienced trainer/behaviourist only. There is a lot of room for mistakes when you use punishment in dog training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Marc to be fair, i gave my advice and opinion and then i get called a bully, i try and explain that he was yelping out of protest and not fear or pain >> my trainer confirmed this yet this was ignored and i am portrayed as a bully and that really upset me a lot so i felt i needed to voive this, i just dont think people should undermine each other on here, fair enough some may think pinning is bad then say it..but without the insults. and if sticking up for yourself when someone insults you unnesscarily is a bad thing on this forum then it may be the wrong forum for me. and smeagle all training mehtods vary, just because it didn't work for your dog doesn't mean it cant work for others, he's john uncle as i said, but im done arguing...say what you want, you clearly think im wrong but as i said it's been working fine for me so i'll stick with thanks and siberianany try and give the training a go as i said and see if what worked for could work for you, if not good luck to you and still come on the forum and sorry andy lol i get very defensive >> ive had a lot of people try and put me down so i dont like it...really hope it all works out for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 lool nix thats not too good either ya know:brick: >> baltz did this and this is bad behavour >> you should be able to touch him and snapping at you is unnaceptable >>> we dont let him snap we tell him off when he does it i was just mearly sayin that bings also has his moments and hes rounghly 9/10 u no what i mean (its only cuz hes got a bad leg aswell he never done it b4) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 @ice Secondly calling other members regardless of the word used is against the rules. Have opinions by all means but do not be aiming it at people. It is in the rules that for the good of the forum if you have issues with members on the forum, it is to be reported via the report post button and will be dealt with by a member of staff. I'm sorry that you think we condone this and dont allow you to stick up for yourself. I was just trying to defuse the situation in the forums for a happy atmosphere.. Smile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 nix - thats good to hear, baltz used to snap at us all the time hmmfff!! but hes a good boy now..almost lol n okay marc i guess that makes sense...im over it now i just always want the last word 17 n 18 in 2 months and i guess it shows, next time i'll just leave it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberianandy Posted April 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 well firstly thanks for calling me silly that has made the whole situation so much easier to deal with. i took on a 9 week old husky pup(suka) thinking i could give him a good loving home and have now hit a rough patch. i asked for opinions on sukas behaviour not a slanging match between members. i never put anyone down. suka does go to training clases everyweek but he is quite stubborn. as for not been a dog owner i have had dogs all my life and just cus it hasn't worked out with suka i would still have a nother dog and be able to train it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 i dont think ur silly and we all no all huskies r but if ur still set on finding a new home for Suka then i agree with wat smeagle (i think thats who sed it) please get him fixed before hand so hes not adopted 2 b used on sum puppy farm ect and i wish u all the best in finding him his new home i no this cant have been an easy descisson 2 make! amd if u have decided 2 give it another try then i wish u all the luck possible! let me no what u decide pm me if u feel that wud b better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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