BingBlaze n Skyla Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 i agree 2 what rich sarah and chezell have said and that u shud bring him 2 the meet meetin dogs ov all diff sizes and ages and breeds i no theres a gsd a cocker spaniel and a staffie cross goin cud do him the world ov good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyrayn Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 yep totally agree nixy..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberianandy Posted April 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 how old is suka and how was he socialised when u got him? he doesnt seem aggressive or anythin hes waggin his tail suka is 5 months and we took him to meet moms dogs and that but don't think he was socialised very well the first 9 weeks of his life.he is very snappy and trys to bite if you try to stroke him. or he will run away barking when you go down to stroke him. i really can't trust him round other dogs even when he goes training he will bark and snap at all the other dogs and owners besides won't be able to go to meet cus won't be able to afford it lots of birthdays round this time of year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 suka is 5 months and we took him to meet moms dogs and that but don't think he was socialised very well the first 9 weeks of his life.he is very snappy and trys to bite if you try to stroke him. or he will run away barking when you go down to stroke him. i really can't trust him round other dogs even when he goes training he will bark and snap at all the other dogs and owners besides won't be able to go to meet cus won't be able to afford it lots of birthdays round this time of year. i rly think u shud try and come blaze snapped at bing khi and milo when they met up occasionally still does im pretty sure its just a puppy thing he cud rly benifit from coming to the meet please think about it did he only meet ur mums dogs ? as this may b why hes not sure around other dogs which might b y he barks and snaps have u looked at puppy socialisation classes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberianandy Posted April 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 was going to take him to the ones the vet runs but he to old now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 aww that's a shame, the one i go to it doesn't matter what age they are they can still go to "puppy" class, there is a dog in mine that's 7 years old. Might be worth looking round or ask the vet if there's one they can recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 was going to take him to the ones the vet runs but he to old now speak to them explain that hes not bin socialised well and he wud benifit in a puppy class more than i did 1 if not do u no many ppl wit dogs u can meet up wit and take them on a walk let them all walk near each other 1st but ignorin them then once hes calm let them approach each other slowly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberianandy Posted April 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 oh he was fine with moms spaniels except he not been able to go recently as their female had kennel cough don't want him getting it most the family have dogs. he goes to the puppy training classes. but no where does socialisation soley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 what if u meet regularly (cnt spell sprry) wit ur family and thier dogs and just go 4 a walk once shes calmed down let them get closer and closer then let them sniff n play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberianandy Posted April 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 what if u meet regularly (cnt spell sprry) wit ur family and thier dogs and just go 4 a walk once shes calmed down let them get closer and closer then let them sniff n play? would just like to say suka is male it means fast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 sorry didnt mean 2 call him a she Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex T Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 That vids great, it just shows how much hes into you and your attention, and how much he wants to play. Have you noticed that everytime he sits down he moans rather than growls as he gets no fun time with you! Next time he does this try doing somehign with him, even if its tossing a ball or something for him to go after and pounce on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 to be honest i've tryed just bout everything pinning him down he will just bite at you and as soon as you let go he jumps up also you can't touch him with out the biting. he does this to other dogs aswell and other people hence why i will not be attending the meet he is just to anti social. any way the vid finally uploaded so here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkprrOoeZM excellant replies - added to reps I can't no aggression here at all. Suka just wants to play. Sibes can be mistaken as being aggressive when they are actually playing. Take a look at Nix's 2, she thought they were actually fighting but in fact they were just playing. Don't forget a natural vocalisation for dogs is barking/howling, Suka wants your attention. Does Suka actually bite you or is he just mouthing you and gently holding your hand? If he isn't applying pressure, he is wanting you to trust him that he wont bite you, its a birlliant bonding strategy. If he is actually biting you, try to pin him down but also hold his scruff (like his mother would do). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie62 Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 my maya will do this but i just turn away from her and go to another room. it is an attention thing with maya, the worst one is honey, see never no's when to shut up sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 just managed 2 watch this with sound he deffo just wants 2 play! see how he grabbed hold ov the trike handle he wants a toy 2 play with and when u kicked it out his way he went and followed it but cuz it didnt do anythin or carry on movin he lost intrested hes just askin you 2 play and when u dont he barks n when u still dont he sits down n thats a moan its deffo not a growl i rly think u shud bring him 2 the meet it cud do him a world ov good and i wud try n meet up wit family owners regulary or ppl u c on walks ask if u can introduce ur dogs as he wasnt very well socialised b4 u got him n that he will bark n snap but its not agressive he just wants 2 have fun and have a friend 2 play with they r a very active breed blaze is CONSTANTLY chasin my lil bro n grabbin his toys n droppin them in our lap he still barks at us like that well occassionally hope all the replies uve had have helped also like what amy aka sibewolf sed i thought i had the same problem with my two 'fighting' turns out they r just playing it sounds and looks a hell ov a lot worse than it is sorry the quality is crap but listen 2 bings bark sounds agressive doesnt it! [ame] [/ame] and i no these 1s are rly short but u can c that they look agressive (no sound sorry) i will try n get more vids for u so u can c what i mean better [ame] [/ame] [ame] [/ame] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Just a thought in general on here peeps, but if a dog / sibe is trying for your attention, and you give that attentention when they ask for it - aren't you playing into their hands / paws? showing that they are more dominant in a way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 very good point/question sarah, added to rep. I never looked at it in that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 this is what i have done and she loves me. also when she does get outta control i just pin her to the ground till she calms down. aparently the mothers do this if the pup is being bad. once she has calmed down i just make her stay their untill i feel that she can go. oh rep added Canadianwolf..... totally forgot i have practiced this method myself and it does work... I know I will probably be unpopular for saying this but anyway - I completely disagree with the above. Pinning a dog to the ground or alpha rolling is not only an incredibly undesirable way to attempt to overcome any problems you have with your dog, but is DANGEROUS and should never be recommended online never mind in real life - no trainer worth their salt would recommend such a method. And as many of you know, I am not against aversive methods in any way - but this technique does not work and is a complete myth. It started when researchers were observing wolf packs. They saw more submissive pack members rolling over towards the alpha. In reality, the alpha dog does not need to pin a submissive pack member to the ground... the submissive dog will roll over of their own accord with NO force on behalf of the alpha, the body language and known pack status of the alpha alone is enough for the lower pack member to submiss. A true alpha will NEVER need to force another dog on the ground. It is the same with dog/human relationships. I do not need to force my dog on the ground to claim 'alpha status' and doing so will not make the dog see me as alpha. A dog should comply with you because the WANT to, not because the have to... a dog that is forced to comply will take the next possible opportunity to overpower you because they don't genuinely see you as the pack leader. Not to mention how dangerous it is to force a dominant dog to the ground, or physically confront an aggressive dog - I tried these methods years ago with my bitch who was an incredibly stubborn and bossy dog and it made our problems worse - why? because when I confronted her she took me up on the offer and challenged me! You do not want to risk having a situation where your dog takes you up on the offer... a large number of dogs forced to be pinned on the ground WILL retaliate and bite back. It is such an old myth and a dangerous one at that, it should never be advised over the net, or even in real life - because there is so much potential for the owner to get hurt and the situation to worsen. Suka I cannot stress enough - do NOT try this method with your dog. I watched your video and there is absolutely NOTHING aggressive or dominant about Suka. He is just looking to engage with and play with you. To be honest, he looks bored, and I think with a bit of work you can easily remedy this situation. He is not even 6 months old - he is at an age where he wants more stimulation and he is going to 'try it on'. It will do you a world of good to have a read of this puppy development calendar so you can understand where he is at in his growth: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=117592 As you said yourself, he may not have had the best start in life and may not have received adequate socialisation. Getting into obedience training - and NOW - will be SO beneficial to your relationship. If you can do some one-on-one sessions with a behaviourist, it will be even better. Run far away from any trainer who thinks pinning a dog to the ground is the way to establish yourself as the pack leader... any trainer worth their salt will know how ineffective this method is, and that there is much more to it than physically dominating your dog. What sort of training do you do with him now? Three lots of ten minute sessions each day will make a huge difference with him. Work on getting him to focus on you, there are loads of ways to do this, clicker or marking training is a great place to start. Start in the backyard and slowly introduce higher levels of distraction from there, as he improves and is responding to you well. Find what makes him go nuts - is he food driven or prey (toy) driven? Going by your video, it looks like he would just love some one on one attention, or pack drive Play with him! Engage with him! Puppies are not supposed to be easy, they are a LOT of work, YOU are the one who needs to sets the foundation to make him a great dog. Biting, jumping etc - it is up to you to teach him manners, he does not automatically know not to do these things. Some dogs are harder than others and will take longer, and more commitment on your behalf, to teach them right from wrong. I will say, and again I will not be popular for saying this, but if you are not willing to put the work in with him, or feel that having a dog is not for you - rehome him now. Rehome him when he is still young and his behaviour hasn't gotten far enough to make finding a new home difficult. To successfully raise a dog takes a lot of effort, from your posts you sound like the kind of person who is willing to put that effort in - but if you aren't... Suka is better off in a home who will put the time and energy in. However - I am sure that you are capable of committing to him 110% so don't hold back and get excited about training him!! Bond with him. Play games with him, he certainly looks like he is keen and ready to go! Use his energy for good, harness it! He looks like a dog who has a LOT of potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Just a thought in general on here peeps, but if a dog / sibe is trying for your attention, and you give that attentention when they ask for it - aren't you playing into their hands / paws? showing that they are more dominant in a way? I give attention on my terms and my terms only. For instance - my dogs go crazy when I ask them if they 'are ready to work?' as they know that training = lots of fun. BUT... I start and end it on my terms, and I always end training sessions with the dog wanting more. I don't wait until they have had enough or have lost interest, I end it on a high note so they are excited and eager for more. It really goes back to the NILIF principle.... nothing in life is free. Does your dog 'pay' for everything they value? And does everything they value come through you? I am referring to things like attention/pats, food, treats, toys, games etc. My dogs learn that I control the resources, and if they want something, they have to comply with a known command before I give it to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 I watched your video and there is absolutely NOTHING aggressive or dominant about Suka. He is just looking to engage with and play with you. To be honest, he looks bored, and I think with a bit of work you can easily remedy this situation. He is not even 6 months old - he is at an age where he wants more stimulation and he is going to 'try it on'. It will do you a world of good to have a read of this puppy development calendar so you can understand where he is at in his growth: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=117592 As you said yourself, he may not have had the best start in life and may not have received adequate socialisation. Getting into obedience training - and NOW - will be SO beneficial to your relationship. If you can do some one-on-one sessions with a behaviourist, it will be even better. Run far away from any trainer who thinks pinning a dog to the ground is the way to establish yourself as the pack leader... any trainer worth their salt will know how ineffective this method is, and that there is much more to it than physically dominating your dog. What sort of training do you do with him now? Three lots of ten minute sessions each day will make a huge difference with him. Work on getting him to focus on you, there are loads of ways to do this, clicker or marking training is a great place to start. Start in the backyard and slowly introduce higher levels of distraction from there, as he improves and is responding to you well. Find what makes him go nuts - is he food driven or prey (toy) driven? Going by your video, it looks like he would just love some one on one attention, or pack drive Play with him! Engage with him! Puppies are not supposed to be easy, they are a LOT of work, YOU are the one who needs to sets the foundation to make him a great dog. Biting, jumping etc - it is up to you to teach him manners, he does not automatically know not to do these things. Some dogs are harder than others and will take longer, and more commitment on your behalf, to teach them right from wrong. I will say, and again I will not be popular for saying this, but if you are not willing to put the work in with him, or feel that having a dog is not for you - rehome him now. Rehome him when he is still young and his behaviour hasn't gotten far enough to make finding a new home difficult. To successfully raise a dog takes a lot of effort, from your posts you sound like the kind of person who is willing to put that effort in - but if you aren't... Suka is better off in a home who will put the time and energy in. However - I am sure that you are capable of committing to him 110% so don't hold back and get excited about training him!! Bond with him. Play games with him, he certainly looks like he is keen and ready to go! Use his energy for good, harness it! He looks like a dog who has a LOT of potential. good advice smeagle wud add 2 rep but cnt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyrayn Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Smeagle .. think maybe you got me and Can wolf wrong... i certainly don't pin my girls to the floor with force .and don't think Can Wolf does..... i will lay my girls into submissive position and will lay my hands lightly on them, they can if they really wanted get up and move away,..so how is this Dangerous to them ??? if you have the right relationship with your dogs then it is not a problem. all you are doing is re-inforcing your position as pack leader... although i would never do it to a police or security dog..lol i have learnt this technique from my wife and her associate's who has done obedience training for some 30 years. and like every thing there is a time and a place.. my girls love me and will respond willingly to me. you say that we should never say over the net that we do this, well sorry but that is what this forum is about for all of us to give our suggestions of how we deal with it . and for the individual to decide which works best for them, ie; if you have an aggressive dog you would not use same techniques on a nervous dog bit like a post we have had about use of halti's.... i personally think they are great and some don't , but have looked and analized what every one else has said and suggested and chosen my own path, and that path works very well for me and my girl's have no problems with them.. the forum is not about one person's idea of how it should be done ,, it's about making your own decision from what every one does. u have put some very good posts in past but i do feel that you should be trying to help people and not alienate people by disagreeing so strongly with how they deal with their own sibes ( unless badly treating )... u have your opinion and methods and others have there own... please try to be a bit more understanding of others on the forum.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Smeagle .. think maybe you got me and Can wolf wrong... i certainly don't pin my girls to the floor with force .and don't think Can Wolf does..... i will lay my girls into submissive position and will lay my hands lightly on them, they can if they really wanted get up and move away,..so how is this Dangerous to them ??? if you have the right relationship with your dogs then it is not a problem. all you are doing is re-inforcing your position as pack leader... Richard I only have your posts to go by, and to quote Cam "I just pin her to the ground until she calms down". All I have to go on is your written word, from that sentence, it sounds as if Cam is recommending the alpha roll which is when the dog is forcefully pinned to the ground. How I am supposed to take that any other way or infer that you really mean, you gently lay your dogs down and pat them until they are calm... that's a bit different to pinning them down isn't it? Alpha rolling is incredibly dangerous, as is any type of physical confrontation with an aggressive or dominant dog, for reasons I outlined in my post - a dominant dog may very well retaliate and take you up on the challenge. I have SEEN people be bitten (including Cesar Milan when he uses this technique) when they "alpha roll" their dogs. Hence why I said it is dangerous you say that we should never say over the net that we do this, well sorry but that is what this forum is about for all of us to give our suggestions of how we deal with it . and for the individual to decide which works best for them, ie; if you have an aggressive dog you would not use same techniques on a nervous dog bit like a post we have had about use of halti's.... i personally think they are great and some don't , but have looked and analized what every one else has said and suggested and chosen my own path, and that path works very well for me and my girl's have no problems with them.. the forum is not about one person's idea of how it should be done ,, it's about making your own decision from what every one does. Of course, and we can all have our opinions. My opinion is that the alpha roll is dangerous and should never be recommended on the internet for that reason. I only said that it shouldn't be recommended over the net for two reasons: 1) It is a technique that has a lot of room for error, and can end in the handler getting bitten or worse. 2) When you had written those posts, you hadn't seen Suka's video or known what his behaviour was really like. Upon seeing the video it was clear Suka wasn't being dominant or aggressive - can you imagine if the OP had taken your advice and pinned Suka to the ground for no reason? This isn't IMO a simple disagreement over a tool, it is a method that can be very dangerous and something that should not be advised on over the internet because there is so much room for error and things going wrong. Please note I am referring to the alpha roll, where you forcefully pin a "dominant" or "aggressive" dog to the floor. u have put some very good posts in past but i do feel that you should be trying to help people and not alienate people by disagreeing so strongly with how they deal with their own sibes ( unless badly treating )... u have your opinion and methods and others have there own... please try to be a bit more understanding of others on the forum.... I am trying to help people - namely the OP of this thread. You recommended a method that I and many others consider to be dangerous and, to be frank, quite useless for reasons I mentioned in my first post. Or am I not allowed to share my opinion on the training methods that other posters recommend, even if I have seen first hand how badly they can backfire? Richard I have seen you disagree with people often on this forum - and now you're telling me I can't do the same thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 i have learnt this technique from my wife and her associate's who has done obedience training for some 30 years. and like every thing there is a time and a place.. As for this quote... I could give you the names and qualifications of at least four trainers and behaviourists, some who have been working for more than thirty years, who taught me why this technique is not a good one. One, that I am currently working with, has trained SAR dogs, police dogs, personal protection/security dogs and more... he is booked out three months in advance when it comes to consults and specialises in canine aggression - in fact aggressive dogs would make up the majority of his client base. But it's a bit of a moot point for me - what would doing so achieve? I am not interesting in attacking you as a poster, I am much more interested in discussing the method itself. I am happy to continue this discussion with you Richard, if you want to refute the points I mentioned in my first post about why the alpha roll is a not a good technique to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 personally from what i seen in the video there is nothing wrong with suka other than he has loads of energy to be burned up, hes only looking for the attention for you to stimulate his needs, his barking is a sign of boredom. As for a solution, exercise suka on your terms not on him demanding it from you, if you do he will assume that he has dominance over you, if you exercise him regularly on a daily basis this type of behaviour should fade out but the key to it all is that you have to remain patient yet firm at ALL times, any flaw, any room for error and he will take advantage of this. Each and every member has different opinions on how things should be done with regards to there furry friends, what necessarily works for one may not work for someone else, it depends on the dog, its personality, its ability to learn, to stay focussed. What i would suggest though is to do some valuable research before attempting anything, therefore you make yourself aware of any problems which could arise thus not comprising your safety or others. Wheres theres a will there will always be a way, for every problem there is a solution so dont give up my friend, be calm be patient and all will work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Great post Scott - added to rep. I definitely agree with you in regards to methods, not one method will work for every dog and everyone should research and find what works best for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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