The Alpha Roll-Over Debate

[Elyse]

A lack of leadership from an owner makes their dog insecure, I would think, because the dog is unsure what will happen next. He has nobody to tell him what to do.

[Bec]

There's no doubt in my mind that there are dominant dogs out there but these dogs are born dominant dogs and they will always be dominant dogs.

[Hyshqa]

I've seen this method abused by too many people for me to agree with it. I tried it with Kiska when she was younger and looking at her pinned down on the floor sparked a horrible "What the hell am I doing??" feeling and I've never tried it again. Granted Kiska's not the most difficult dog in the world but I firmly believe there are far better methods than bullying to get a dog to do what you want. I witnessed quite a few people using this method at camp recently as well as other quite forceful punishments like lifting by/yanking scruffs and grabbing around muzzles and then shaking the dog's head; I was shocked even more that a lot of these dogs would then whimper and cower in front of their owners while still being told off - why would you ever want your dog to react to you like that, even if they have just misbehaved? I don't like it at all and I'm not comfortable being around people that use it.

[Bec]

Wow Steph. Glad I wasn't there as I would not have been able to stop myself saying something.

I had an argument with a member at the obedience club I instruct at the other night because I caught him roughing his dog up and hitting it in the face. Unbelievable that people will try to defend treating their dogs in such a manner.

Another time I saw another instructor (!!!) correcting her dog so hard it was cowering behind her. I told her to stop, turn around and look at her dog. Thankfully she saw my point.

[Sid_Wolf]

the only physical 'punishment' i use is a light tap on the backside, for example if im on a solo run and the dog stops to sniff and ignores my onby command, i will gently tap their bum as i go past them to get them moving again. They have never cowered/yelped/gave me the scared eyes when i've done this, they just stop what they're doing and run again, in fact other than running again they dont seem to notice it! I dont even know if i'd call it punishment, more of a 'get going' reminder lol

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

skyla got a tap on the nose at camp for trying to have a go at other dogs but i never once grabbed her or pinned her or caused her any harm - i also saw a dog whimper by being scruffed n pinned down by its owner - i felt bad for the dog - but im not the kind of person to feel right by calling sum1 out - its not my place at all

[Bec]

skyla got a tap on the nose at camp for trying to have a go at other dogs but i never once grabbed her or pinned her or caused her any harm - i also saw a dog whimper by being scruffed n pinned down by its owner - i felt bad for the dog - but im not the kind of person to feel right by calling sum1 out - its not my place at all

Oh that's awful! That poor dog.

I never used to say anything, but I do now. I can't stand to see dogs treated in such an awful way, and if we don't stand up for them, who will

[Ravenwolf]

I find it interesting so many people would use it as a safety measure because there are other ways to achieve the same result that carries less risk for the handler.

It is the only thing that has proven effective (in my somewhat limited experience). If and when I see a more effective means of doing the same job I'd be more than happy to employ it. As it stands now, the reward has always outweighed the risk of pinning the dog in these circumstances.

And for whoever mentioned dogs being scared or excessively submissive of a person after being rolled, no dog I have ever had to pin has been fearful of me afterward, and I've never seen a "correctly" pinned dog react that way either. I have seen people rolling their dogs willy-nilly at the dog park - for not coming when they're called, for growling at another dog, for jumping up on a person - and those are the dogs who flinch and duck because they know what's coming, and those are the people I would expect to have a dog finally lose it on them and get bitten.

Water spray to break up a fight?? How many times have you found that works for serious fights?

I was wondering about this too, actually. I've heard of it being a method and some people swear by it, though I've never heard a firsthand account of it working.

A lack of leadership from an owner does not make their dog dominant.

A dog isn't going to step up and suddenly become "dominant" because their owner is showing no leadership. All dogs need leadership and to know what the rules and boundaries are, if they don't get this, they will do what they want because they have no reason to do otherwise - that isn't dominance.

Dominant no. Leader yes. That is why I used quotations around the word "dominant" in my example - because 9 times out of 10 the dog isn't a dominant dog - just one that has no leadership and therefore has become unruly. The ones who object the few times their owners actually correct them. The ones who own areas of the home and do not release them. These are the dogs who "defend" their owners/pack members/property. Unless you have a dog that's bred and trained to be a guard dog, I don't find defensive guarding behaviour to be anything to brag about. I see it (most of the time) as the dog feeling like they have to be the leader and protect their pack, because they don't have confidence that the owner will do so. That's not always the case - and I'm aware that some breeds have these traits bred into their instinct deliberately - but sometimes it is, and that's a leadership problem. And yes, we could digress into the behavioural aspect of guarding and how it differs when your life truly is at risk - even the most laid back dog may take up the fight for or with you at that point - but for the average situation where there is no risk or only a perceived risk, the dog feeling like they need to be the protective aggressor is something that they would likely not do with a stronger leader.

As a trainer, I'm sure you've seen your fair share of King of the Castle little dogs - do you think they are all dominant personality dogs? Or do they follow quite happily the moment someone takes the initiative?

skyla got a tap on the nose at camp for trying to have a go at other dogs but i never once grabbed her or pinned her or caused her any harm - i also saw a dog whimper by being scruffed n pinned down by its owner - i felt bad for the dog - but im not the kind of person to feel right by calling sum1 out - its not my place at all

I'm thoroughly confused by this. Hitting your dog in the face is acceptable, but grabbing them by the scruff is abuse? Even if it was just a little tap, how is the act of striking your dog supposed to teach it anything or accomplish anything? You said previously that you "don't want to force myself on my dogs or MAKE them respect me" but you will punish them by hitting them in the face when they misbehave? I certainly can't say what the person you are talking about did is appropriate at all (as I didn't see it and don't know the situation), but I struggle to understand how hitting your dog's nose is any better. Just because she didn't yelp it's okay? You didn't "hurt" her, so bopping her nose taught just her a lesson? Sound doesn't always indicate pain or abject fear - I had a dog who would yelp if you stepped near her feet - and the absence of sound doesn't mean something didn't hurt or generate a fear response.

My thoughts - striking a dog in any way is a primate action. We hit animals as discipline because it feels good to us - we might feel emotionally bad about it, but we've done something about the situation, gotten our point across, delivered a justified consequence and - let's face it - released our own frustration. It has taught nothing other than fear and maybe aversion based on fear. Does your dog now think "oh, I better not have a go at that dog because she might bop me on the nose?" Unlikely. So what purpose did it serve that it's so much better than what the other person did?

[Removed #5]

I'm sorry, but I have to break in here since we seem to be going 'round and 'round the same old circle.

With rare exceptions my discipline of choice is to stop whatever we / they are doing, normally with a "No!" ( or down or sit ), but of course the most vicious animal I've ever been around was my cousins German Shepherd (er, surrendered to the my aunt and uncle at the farm) Kim was a danger to herself and others but a few weeks of little attention ( food, water and talk at feeding time) eventually brought an amazing turnaround. I can't think of a time where I've exercised any discipline stronger than a hand on their collar (( though I also admit a few times where my reaction wasn't appropriate, but those are very rare! ))

What I'm hearing here is "I can and will justify my way of disciplining my dog any way I feel necessary." I don't think any us will argue that's your right, though some, apparently are willing to go to great lengths to argue that it's the right way to do so. Seriously folks, the pros and cons of alpha rolling a dog (and other forms of discipline) have been covered ad nauseum ... I do think everyone here understands that we all have varying viewpoints on correction, I think all of have varying limits on what we feel is acceptable correction - I do not think that many of us are going to significantly change our ideas and methods. In fact, to me, this discussion has now reached such a negative turn that I think the impact on people is getting to be a major turn-off (notice that the topic has been drifting over the past couple of days).

This topic and the one about shock collars seem to carry an inordinate amount of emotional weight ... imo, way beyond what the topics deserve.

Wouldn't this be more productive if we could agree that we're going to disagree and leave the topic and get on with others that may be more beneficial? And of course, I'm open to "It's a serious discussion about a serious topic and how dare I suggest otherwise?!"

Carry on ....

[Kirbysowner]

I dont speak dog, nor do i know how dogs think so I couldnt tell you if it actually works on a fundamentally psychological level. All I can say is that I have never pinned my dog or rolled him over to show dominance. he listens to me and is very obedient most of the time, all without ever using it. All dogs are different, and we dont really know anything about dogs except for basic behavioral assumptions, imo. So far, simply grabbing the scruff and telling him no has been the most I have ever done in a worse case scenario. So, I guess I am against it and don't really think is necessary. I also know many pit owners who have never done this, and this are the friendliest pits you you will ever meet, and I'm using them as a real life example because of their bad reputation.

[BlackDawn]

I don't believe in the Alpha Roll, simply because theres a better method.

This method is mimic'd of the puppies mother in a way. When puppy misbehaves you still pin the dog, but so their chest is on the floor(not back down). You put your hand on their neck in a bite formation and just hold the puppy there. You'll feel when the dog submits and, it has little to do with Alpha.

[Ravenwolf]

Wouldn't this be more productive if we could agree that we're going to disagree and leave the topic and get on with others that may be more beneficial? And of course, I'm open to "It's a serious discussion about a serious topic and how dare I suggest otherwise?!"

Carry on ....

Maybe it's because I'm new here and so haven't seen this particular topic come up before, but I'm rather interested in hearing rational arguments on both sides of this topic. There's nothing wrong with a little spirited debate and I for one am enjoying it! I'm forever wanting to learn, and one should know both sides of a topic if one wants to successfully argue it. Sometimes it happens that once someone learns more about a topic they do a total 180 on their opinion, or at least have a greater understanding of why they adhere to their position. I've changed my tune many-a time over the years after getting more education on a subject!

Plus it's good fun - like boxing for the brain!

[Bec]

It is the only thing that has proven effective (in my somewhat limited experience). If and when I see a more effective means of doing the same job I'd be more than happy to employ it. As it stands now, the reward has always outweighed the risk of pinning the dog in these circumstances.

The way I would break up a fight is a bit hard to explain over the net, but I would use the 'wheel barrow' method to separate the dogs.

If I had a dog latched on to me or attempting to attack/bite someone and it was a case of personal safety, I would air block them with the collar or with a leash so they let go that way and could be safely restrained.

I am only a relatively small female, I simply would not be strong enough to alpha roll majority of dogs especially when they are full of adrenalin like they are when in a fight or displaying aggression.

I was wondering about this too, actually. I've heard of it being a method and some people swear by it, though I've never heard a firsthand account of it working.

I've heard of it before, but IMO it's not particularly effective. Dogs in a serious fight wouldn't even feel the spray of water on them IME and I wouldn't waste time trying it.

Wouldn't this be more productive if we could agree that we're going to disagree and leave the topic and get on with others that may be more beneficial? And of course, I'm open to "It's a serious discussion about a serious topic and how dare I suggest otherwise?!"

I've been on forums for a number of years now and I have found that it is just the nature of the forum for the same 'hot topics' to be discussed repeatedly over time. Personally it doesn't bother me and considering forums get new members all the time, I think people can definitely learn things from reading these kinds of threads.

I like discussion even when it gets a bit heated as long as it doesn't become a personal attack on another member. if I didn't, I wouldn't be on forums! JMO

[Staceybob]

skyla got a tap on the nose at camp for trying to have a go at other dogs but i never once grabbed her or pinned her or caused her any harm - i also saw a dog whimper by being scruffed n pinned down by its owner - i felt bad for the dog - but im not the kind of person to feel right by calling sum1 out - its not my place at all

I'm glad I didn't see that, I think I'd be biting my tongue!

Stacey xxx

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

I'm thoroughly confused by this. Hitting your dog in the face is acceptable, but grabbing them by the scruff is abuse? Even if it was just a little tap, how is the act of striking your dog supposed to teach it anything or accomplish anything? You said previously that you "don't want to force myself on my dogs or MAKE them respect me" but you will punish them by hitting them in the face when they misbehave? I certainly can't say what the person you are talking about did is appropriate at all (as I didn't see it and don't know the situation), but I struggle to understand how hitting your dog's nose is any better. Just because she didn't yelp it's okay? You didn't "hurt" her, so bopping her nose taught just her a lesson? Sound doesn't always indicate pain or abject fear - I had a dog who would yelp if you stepped near her feet - and the absence of sound doesn't mean something didn't hurt or generate a fear response.

My thoughts - striking a dog in any way is a primate action. We hit animals as discipline because it feels good to us - we might feel emotionally bad about it, but we've done something about the situation, gotten our point across, delivered a justified consequence and - let's face it - released our own frustration. It has taught nothing other than fear and maybe aversion based on fear. Does your dog now think "oh, I better not have a go at that dog because she might bop me on the nose?" Unlikely. So what purpose did it serve that it's so much better than what the other person did?

im sorry maybe i should elaborate - it was hardly hitting her in the face it was a quick light tap on the nose which broke her focus - i didnt hit her in the face AT ALL - kind of similar to what sid does - by giving her dogs a light tap on the backend to keep them walking - i in no way abuse my dogs - ask any1 who was at camp or any1 whos met me n my pack - to know that the tap on the end of the nose didnt effect her negatively in anyway shape or form - a tug on the lead doesnt distract her n break her focus - and im not going to use treats to break her focus either - my dogs do not fear me they never have n never will - i didnt say grabbing by thescruff was abuse - this person grabbed the scruff pulled them back n then forced the dog to the floor to which it cried out - in protest or in pain i dont know - but i do know thats FAR worse then me giving skyla a light quick tap on the nose - she didnt flinch away or cower from me - if my dog was afraid of me n if that hurt her - would she give me kisses n massive hugs when i get home from being out after an hour n a half , would she get excited to go on one-on-one walks with me - would she cuddle up to me at night on my bed? i doubt it very much

i have no frustration towards my dogs in any shape or form - their pulling is annoying but thats about it - n thats my own fault for not training them sooner but i dont get frustrated with them as its my fault - im now doin something about it and training them - also after the tap on the nose she did calm down around that dog - i know my girl n wouldnt do something to her that i thought would just make me feel better as where does she benefit!?

[mike_p]

I find it interesting so many people would use it as a safety measure because there are other ways to achieve the same result that carries less risk for the handler.

I'd love to hear your opinions on "other ways achieve the same result that carries less risk for the handler"

You have to get in and sort the problem instantly. Holding the dog down until it calms down works. Tried and tested.

Don't forget that Mick and I both handle dogs that come in from a variety of backgrounds. We're not just handling cute pups that have been nicely brought up and treat-trained all their lives. Also in rescue we get to handle a lot of different dogs in a very short space of time. In those conditions you gain immense experience in a short space of time. I don't have any training or behavioural qualifications, but I do work alongside others that do.

Water spray to break up a fight?? How many times have you found that works for serious fights?

On at least one occasion, more of a bucketful rather than a spray. It can shock the dogs long enough to separate them. If you don't get betwen them immediately they will get straight back into the fight, but the water will give you a small window of opportunity to get a slip lead over their heads and get them fully apart. This worked on the worst fight I've seen at the rescue kennels: two bitches (litter mates) suddenly went for each other. You night find this diffuclt to accept, but I'd prefer I get bitten than another dog: it's really cheap to patch me up but costs a lot to take a dog to the vets.

In those instances did that solve the behaviourial issues you had with the dog completely after that for good or did you have to do more work with it?

That is totally irrelvant to the emergency situations in which you use these methods.

...if you can guarantee you are bigger and stronger than the dog. What happens when you have a dog that is bigger and stronger than you and physically cannot pin it to the ground? What happens if the dog overpowers you and then learns that it can beat you by being physically stronger?

Average Siberian dog weight: about 25kgs. Average human male: more than 80kgs. The only things that works for a dog is the fact that it's got a big set of gnashers. Humans are far more dangerous wth their hands. If you approach a dog with total confidence that you are bigger and stronger (normally true) you are less likely to be bitten.

What happens if you rehome one of these dogs you "fix" to a person who isn't physically capable of grabbing a dog by the throat, lifting it in the air and pinning it against the corner for a couple of minutes?

You seem to have a totally naive view about rescues. We would never rehome a difficult dog with someone that doesn't have the skills to deal with it.

Plenty of homes can deal with difficult dogs and many people enjoy the challenge. Take me for instance. Thats how I got involved in rescue.

Personally I find that image sickening and it disgusts me that people handle dogs in this manner unless it was an emergency situation where they were in serious danger of being injured or worse.

WTF! You're taking it out of context then saying "it disgusts me that people handle dogs in this manner unless it was an emergency situation"

I really would love to hear what you'd do if you had people and dogs in a confined area where a dog is behaving very aggressively? Give it a treat and hope it lays down? Or do you take firm control of the situation?

And again you can have amazing control over your dogs without force, and if you are a handler who isn't physically capable of over powering your dog then gaining force without needing to be bigger and stronger is a must.

Absolutely true. But it doesn't mean that less physically capable handlers can cope with all dogs.

From time to time we get trainers/behaviourists who offer to come and help at the kennels. I think a lot of them presume they'll pick up paid work with the new keepers of the dogs we rehome. They tell us how wonderful they are, how well qualified and stress that they use positive methods only. We present them with a problem and they fail. A lot seem to get their qualifications by correspondence courses with no hands-on experience. They're great at teaching dogs to walk to heel and sit and give paw.

We also get dogs offered to us because they're "untrainable". The owners have taken to training classes and at their first class the dog is barking at another and they end up being told to stand at the back, avoid all other dogs and often end up being told not to come back because their dog is untrainable. Others have been to behaviourists who milk them of money and never quite get to grips with the problem. They also praise the owner and tell them how wonderful the progress is when in fact they're achieving nothing but ensuring a regular income-stream.

[James]

Meh, I haven't read all of the posts, but I always roll Kita onto her back when we are playing and Kita is a big girl, though because i've been doing it since she was 16 weeks old, she puts up little resistance and enjoys the play.

I will scruff her or pin her if i feel its neccessary to control her, i think i've only had to it perhaps twice in 6 months, yes she does wimper a tad, but no damage is actually done.

[raindog]

. It has taught nothing other than fear and maybe aversion based on fear.

I don't think that "aversion to fear!" is always a bad thing. We all learn that way! I won't put my hand on a red hot cooker ring because I have learned that doing so hurts like hell!

As a child I wouldn't throw a tantrum while out shopping with my mum because I knew I'd get a smacked bum.

Training with "positive reinforcement" (praise) is very effective, but so, at times is "negative reinforcement" (punishment).

[James]

I don't think that "aversion to fear!" is always a bad thing. We all learn that way! I won't put my hand on a red hot cooker ring because I have learned that doing so hurts like hell!

As a child I wouldn't throw a tantrum while out shopping with my mum because I knew I'd get a smacked bum.

Training with "positive reinforcement" (praise) is very effective, but so, at times is "negative reinforcement" (punishment).

I think not only can negative reinforcement be effective, I think at times its neccessary, to stamp out bad behavior then and there.

My American Uncle, lived in Carolina, in the coutry side, he's had dogs all his life, all full time working dogs, Hunting dogs mostly, when he moved in with my auntie, he took his Bassett Hound Buddy with him, they found he had sever food aggression when my auntie tried to touch is bowl he growled and tried to bite her, in the moment my Uncle punched buddy in the face :eek: sounds horrific I know, but it worked, never a single peep out of buddy ever again, and I know buddy was a very happy, soft and loving dog , My Uncle is very black and white on these kinds of things, He probably doesn't feel quite the same way that we do about our dogs, sure he loved his dogs, but they were for a purpose outside of being companions, they had to work. Also he is a military man, so being soft isn't exactly in his description

[Bec]

I'd love to hear your opinions on "other ways achieve the same result that carries less risk for the handler"

You have to get in and sort the problem instantly. Holding the dog down until it calms down works. Tried and tested.

Don't forget that Mick and I both handle dogs that come in from a variety of backgrounds. We're not just handling cute pups that have been nicely brought up and treat-trained all their lives. Also in rescue we get to handle a lot of different dogs in a very short space of time. In those conditions you gain immense experience in a short space of time. I don't have any training or behavioural qualifications, but I do work alongside others that do.

Yes, so do I. The trainers I work with see highly dangerous aggressive dogs every week... certainly not puppies that have been "nicely bought up and treat trained all their lives". If a pup has been bought up "nicely", chances are they won't ever have to see a trainer.

Oddly enough though none of them would use an alpha roll, firstly because they know how to handle these dogs safely and likely wouldn't be in a position where they'd have to use one, and secondly because in an emergency situation there ARE safer ways.

You night find this diffuclt to accept, but I'd prefer I get bitten than another dog: it's really cheap to patch me up but costs a lot to take a dog to the vets.

Why would I find that difficult to accept?

Average Siberian dog weight: about 25kgs. Average human male: more than 80kgs. The only things that works for a dog is the fact that it's got a big set of gnashers. Humans are far more dangerous wth their hands. If you approach a dog with total confidence that you are bigger and stronger (normally true) you are less likely to be bitten.

Ok, but what happens if you are a female trainer who weighs about 60kg and you get dogs that weigh more than you?

It's convenient if you can always be sure you are bigger and stronger than the dogs you are working with, but unfortunately as a dog trainer you can't turn down clients with dogs who outweigh and outsize you, so you HAVE to find methods that can work on a range of dogs.

Sure confidence helps, so does loads of experience so you know how to handle dogs like that safely.

You seem to have a totally naive view about rescues. We would never rehome a difficult dog with someone that doesn't have the skills to deal with it.

You get that from one hypothetical question?

WTF! You're taking it out of context then saying "it disgusts me that people handle dogs in this manner unless it was an emergency situation"

I really would love to hear what you'd do if you had people and dogs in a confined area where a dog is behaving very aggressively? Give it a treat and hope it lays down? Or do you take firm control of the situation?

Ok, now you are being ridiculous. A dog that's crossed it's threshold won't be interested in food and honestly, I find it insulting you think I am some yuppy positive only trainer. Anyone who has been around this forum long enough knows that is not true.

Now I could have read your post wrong, but from what you described it didn't sound like the dog would have kept attacking you. If you are as big and strong as you think, was it necessary to hang the dog up in a corner and choke it by the throat?

Absolutely true. But it doesn't mean that less physically capable handlers can cope with all dogs.

But what are trainers supposed to do when an owner brings them their dog, who they can't physically handle?

What do you tell the owner? Get rid of the dog? Have it PTS? It's great if you are in your situation where you are rehoming dogs and can pick and choose suitable owners but that's not the reality when you have clients coming to you with dogs that are totally out of control. Sometimes you do have owners who are not capable of controlling their dogs, and you have to teach them how in a way they are capable of doing. And not everyone is capable of being bigger and stronger or having that natural confidence.

From time to time we get trainers/behaviourists who offer to come and help at the kennels. I think a lot of them presume they'll pick up paid work with the new keepers of the dogs we rehome. They tell us how wonderful they are, how well qualified and stress that they use positive methods only. We present them with a problem and they fail. A lot seem to get their qualifications by correspondence courses with no hands-on experience. They're great at teaching dogs to walk to heel and sit and give paw.

Personally I am not really interested in trainers who claim they are positive only, or correction based trainers or even balanced trainers. I am interested in trainers who get good results. How you get results differ from client to client and dog to dog. The behaviourist I work for is booked out for three months in advance, even though there are loads of trainers around, unfortunately not many are capable of getting good results, heaps of them are good at getting bad ones though.

We also get dogs offered to us because they're "untrainable". The owners have taken to training classes and at their first class the dog is barking at another and they end up being told to stand at the back, avoid all other dogs and often end up being told not to come back because their dog is untrainable. Others have been to behaviourists who milk them of money and never quite get to grips with the problem. They also praise the owner and tell them how wonderful the progress is when in fact they're achieving nothing but ensuring a regular income-stream.

I could write a book on dodgy things I've heard and seen "trainers" do, and I'm only starting out...

ETA: To clarify some things. I am not at all against using negative reinforcement or positive punishment. I have no problems with training tools many other people baulk at including prongs and e-collars. I wouldn't have so much of a problem with the alpha roll if I thought it was the only or best way of doing something and achieved results where other methods were not able to. If I or the trainers I learn from have a case where we think it is a) necessary and the only/best way of achieving results the first thing I will do is come here and tell you all about it.

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

pans full ov water never stopped the dog attacking skyla

[Bec]

pans full ov water never stopped the dog attacking skyla

I think it would be something that would work so rarely I personally wouldn't waste time using it.

It would also be unlikely that most people will have buckets full of water around each time they see a dog being attacked or in a fight.

If it's a dog fight I would use the wheel barrow method, pull both dogs out by the back of their legs at the same time, it will force them to let go.

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

I think it would be something that would work so rarely I personally wouldn't waste time using it.

It would also be unlikely that most people will have buckets full of water around each time they see a dog being attacked or in a fight.

If it's a dog fight I would use the wheel barrow method, pull both dogs out by the back of their legs at the same time, it will force them to let go.

this dog was on top of skyla - poor girl was just lying on the floor - i tried picking up the legs of the dog that was on skyla but that didnt work either - was only when the owner went back inside their house n got the dogs collar to put on the dog it finally let go - i take a spare lead out with me now just incase so i can noose it round a dogs neck if they dont have a collar on - was told by a member on here to try that - n if its wearing a collar grab n twist the collar to cut off airways so it opens its mouth

[Bec]

this dog was on top of skyla - poor girl was just lying on the floor - i tried picking up the legs of the dog that was on skyla but that didnt work either - was only when the owner went back inside their house n got the dogs collar to put on the dog it finally let go - i take a spare lead out with me now just incase so i can noose it round a dogs neck if they dont have a collar on - was told by a member on here to try that - n if its wearing a collar grab n twist the collar to cut off airways so it opens its mouth

I've been in a situation like with one of my dogs before as she won't fight back either and it is bloody scary, props to anyone who can think clearly in a situation like that.

My instinct - as it is likely I would not be strong enough to actually pull a seriously DA dog off mine and pin it the ground, it was a staffy that attacked my dog and whilst they aren't huge this dog had no collar on and was a ball of muscle, they also have a super grip, I was yanking it off my dog with my bare hands and it didn't even come close to letting go - would be to air block the dog so it's brain is forced to go into survival mode and attempt to seek oxygen, the first thing the dog will do when you air block it is let the other dog go. Once it does that you can restrain it more safely. My goal would be do whatever I could to get the dog off mine as fast and as safely as possible.

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

I've been in a situation like with one of my dogs before as she won't fight back either and it is bloody scary, props to anyone who can think clearly in a situation like that.

My instinct - as it is likely I would not be strong enough to actually pull a seriously DA dog off mine and pin it the ground, it was a staffy that attacked my dog and whilst they aren't huge this dog had no collar on and was a ball of muscle, they also have a super grip, I was yanking it off my dog with my bare hands and it didn't even come close to letting go - would be to air block the dog so it's brain is forced to go into survival mode and attempt to seek oxygen, the first thing the dog will do when you air block it is let the other dog go. Once it does that you can restrain it more safely. My goal would be do whatever I could to get the dog off mine as fast and as safely as possible.

yeh same as the dog that attacked skyla but i think it was a staffy x as it looked like a staffy but it was huge pure muscle and no collar on - i didnt think clearly at all i thought the dog was gonna kill her - thats why i now take a spare lead n try n keep a clear head when i see an offlead dog just incase