The Alpha Roll-Over Debate

[Staceybob]

I personally don't like to see a dog with an owner with very little dominance, and I don't like to see a dog that is over submissive either.

Aleu is submissive in the sense of she chooses to roll onto her back and show me her belly when I have... well what I can only describe in Cesars terms as "Calm Submissive Energy" going on.

I have seen dogs wet themselves in fear of on owner, and that in my opinion is not submissive, it's pure fear, and a dog shouldn't feel that way.

Stacey xxx

[jayt]

When we first got Jon, we had a major problem with him and his food. To the point that he attacked me. At the time, I just tackled him, and put him on his back (now I see it as alpha rolling). I have not had a problem since. I would not have chosen to do it, but the way I see it: if I didn't, and ignored it, he may have attacked the wrong person at some point. That would end up much worse than me rolling him once.

[Bec]

JayT - not to pick on you but for anyone else reading this who has a dog who resource guards. There would have been warning signs your dog gave before he attacked you, had the right action been taken when those warning signs first appeared the behaviour would never had escalated like that.

[Bec]

JayT - not to pick on you but for anyone else reading this who has a dog who resource guards. There would have been warning signs your dog gave before he attacked you, had the right action been taken when those warning signs first appeared the behaviour would never had escalated like that.

[jayt]

Sure the growling was a warning sign that I, as an adult, understood. But a small child would not have. What's better, then? I roll him, or he bits the face off my child, and I have to put him to sleep?

[jayt]

And guess what? He no longer is possessive of his food to me, or any other human.

[BlueWolf]

I do this all the time, but always meant it to be an invitation to play. Never ever did I meant to be an alpha (if a pack of two dogs even know the concept of alpha, that is). I don't pin them done like wolves do, I just roll them over. I gently push them over to get them playful, which they always do. They never respond in an submissive way.

Dana goes on her back anyway because she only wants me to scratch her on her belly. Whenever I make an attempt to pet her she wraps herself in such way I can only pet her on her belly.

So either I thought them what I meant with that, or they have just no clue about this "alpha roll".

So that's why I'm somewhat sceptical about this alpha roll. I've seen alpha wolves pin others down to put them on their place, I've never seen them rolling others over. What I DO see however is omega's rolling over *on their own* to show expose their vulnerable underside. Maybe people are confused with that?

[lyra]

Sometimes when Lyra gets really worked up about the cat, I'll grab her by the scruff and make her lay down. It doesn't happen very frequently, only when she doesn't respond to a verbal command or to redirection and if timeouts don't work, etc. I don't roll her over on her back so much as hold her in a "down" position. It's certainly not something I'm going to try with any random dog I meet, nor would I tell others that it's right for their dog. I just know Lyra. It calms her down enough where she can focus on something other than the cat and is much more receptive to verbal commands afterwards.

I think a lot of it depends on how it's done. Lyra has never displayed any degree of fright afterwards. She bounces back quickly and no love is lost between us. She's just a stinker sometimes.

[Bec]

Sure the growling was a warning sign that I, as an adult, understood. But a small child would not have. What's better, then? I roll him, or he bits the face off my child, and I have to put him to sleep?

No that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that I would have taken action to fix the problem as soon as the behaviour started showing - I wouldn't have let it get to the point where my dog attacked me over it's food.

[Removed #1]

I think the Alpha roll over thing is unnecessary...while our dogs have a pack mentality...they still recognize that I am not a dog. My children are not dogs, and neither is my husband. I think it's more important to clearly establish the rules in a household and be consistant than it is to try shortcuts like what I really believe this is intended to be. People are not animals and trying to confuse animal behavior with human behavior is...well in the long run I think it just confuses more people (you want to see a prime example of that...buy Grizzly man...Timmothy Tredwell (sp?) was the biggest advocate for the very animals that ate him in the end, because he refused to fall into the lines nature has in place...animals are animals and people are people).

The foodchain in our house:

Dean and Myself (Dean more than me though)

Our children (special consideration to be paid to our toddler...)

Fox

Tinkerbell

There is NO question about this...not even a little...why is the beagle puppy lowest on the totem pole? She's the newest really. We had some issues with bullying in the beginning...now it's just amusing. When she's doing something she ought not be doing, Fox usually correct her before we do, and in the event that she should be away from wherever it is she's doing something she ought not to be doing...he picks her up by the collar (not even the scruff of the neck) and drags her to her crate...then either wrestles with her for a bit, or lets her sit and try to figure out what the heck just happened.

Does Fox show submission to my husband and I? Yes...he does, quite regularly, we've actually named the natural action with the behavior we see and he responds now when we say "Fox Bow..." Additionally when he see's we're busy with something and he's approaching for attention he does this thing where he tucks his ears flat against his head until he either gets the command to bow...or he gets pettings...

[Removed #1]

If I'm reading it right, it doesn't seem that JayT has had his furry fellow from puppydom...having taken in rescue dogs myself before, sometimes it's hard to know what you're going to end up with...and if there are children to consider...well we all do what we have to do. It could have perhaps been caught sooner...but if JayT found his darling second or third owner...and if it's his first husky or dog he might not have been aware of what the early signs were because he wasn't there in the beginning.

That said...resources guarding where a dog is willing to attack a human being is serious business and I'm glad to hear that through some action this particular issue seems to have been resolved. Especially in a household with children.

[jayt]

No that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that I would have taken action to fix the problem as soon as the behaviour started showing - I wouldn't have let it get to the point where my dog attacked me over it's food.

It was literally the first day we had him home. But I guess you know how to prevent these problems from occurring at the breeder, too.

[jayt]

If I'm reading it right, it doesn't seem that JayT has had his furry fellow from puppydom...having taken in rescue dogs myself before, sometimes it's hard to know what you're going to end up with...and if there are children to consider...well we all do what we have to do.  It could have perhaps been caught sooner...but if JayT found his darling second or third owner...and if it's his first husky or dog he might not have been aware of what the early signs were because he wasn't there in the beginning.

That said...resources guarding where a dog is willing to attack a human being is serious business and I'm glad to hear that through some action this particular issue seems to have been resolved.  Especially in a household with children.

We did have him from a puppy, but this was a problem that came from the breeder. Sometimes it's best to look at the greater good. Would I have preferred to deal with this another way? Sure. It was already at the point where we was willing to attack a human. That is a problem, in my book. The problem was handled a bit more physically than I would have preferred, but you know what? He doesn't attack humans anymore over food. That is a gain of positive magnitude.

[jayt]

Oh, and we don't have children in the home, but Jon is around children once in a while. How do you explain to a friend, oh he bit your Childs face because they didn't recognize his warning signs. It's not his fault, so we coddle him and try to teach him the right way at his pace.

[Arooroomom]

Not all of us are hearsed on canine body language/signals. Something as small as a whale eye or a freeze is sometimes all the warning you get. Someone who doesn't know what to look for (or what they should be looking for) will miss that very easily.

[Darc-Brittany]

I tried it a few times when I had just gotten my little guy. I didn't feel comfortable doing it and it never really seemed to work so I don't do it. I think it's a silly thing to do to dogs, maybe for small ones, but not big ones. I've tried on Bailey (Mom's wiener dog, she's not socialized at all, got her when she was 2) and that just pissed her off more... She's a very mean dog XD;

I like the dog whisperer and I agree with some of his techniques but a lot of them I don't agree with. There was one episode that I watched a few months back. Junior was trying to mount another dog so he stepped over to Junior and he immediately flinched away from him. I don't know how you guys would see that, but that shocked me. I've only ever seen dogs react that way when they have been beaten in the past... So I tend not to watch the show anymore. I think he's not as "assertive" as he leads on to be.

[Staceybob]

Interesting responses.

I have pinned my mums dog before when he went for me once, but I wouldn't say I did it to put him in his place or as an alpha roll, it was more out of quick reaction to try and stop myself from getting bitten - which stupidly could have probably increased my risk of being bitten (but thankfully I'm chunky and bigger than him lol) but as humans, we all make silly mistakes in the moment of things.

I think that's what JT is getting at, though correct me if I'm wrong.

Stacey xxx

[RoseWillow&Dexter]

I have never tried with willow, at the dog park though if a dog is getting agressive with another dog ive noticed a few people get there dog to drop and roll over (not forcefully) and make them lay on their back to calm down and let the other dog sniff them etc

[Bec]

It was literally the first day we had him home. But I guess you know how to prevent these problems from occurring at the breeder, too.

Resource guarding is very common in puppies even early on amongst litter mates.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to pick on you, I was just concerned that people reading your post may think 'ok, all I need to do is wait for my dog to bite me over his food then I'll alpha roll him and it will all be fixed'. I was just pointing out for anyone else reading that there ARE signs that come before a dog escalating behaviour to biting/attacking.

I wouldn't have used an alpha roll in the situation you described because IMO there are many ways to deal with the same problem that don't have so much potential to go wrong. But, I was talking generally, not specifically about your situation.

[jayt]

I am curious, bec, how you would deal with a dog attacking a human.

[Bec]

I am curious, bec, how you would deal with a dog attacking a human.

That would depend entirely on the situation, the dog, the circumstances etc. I would never even think to attempt to pin a dog attacking me to the ground, what if the dog decides to take you up on the challenge?

Just curious JayT - you said you had this dog from a puppy and this incident happened the first day you bought him home. How old was he when he attacked you?

[wolfmyth]

That would depend entirely on the situation, the dog, the circumstances etc.

Please give some examples so I (and others) know what to do the dreaded day my pup decided to bite me. I value your input as you seem very knowledgeable with dogs/huskies.

[Bec]

Please give some examples so I (and others) know what to do the dreaded day my pup decided to bite me. I value your input as you seem very knowledgeable with dogs/huskies.

It is really situation and dog dependent. But it's important to remember that a dog doesn't bite for no reason, the bite is symptomatic of a bigger problem. If one of my dogs bit me, I'd want to look at our whole relationship to find where it is that *I* stuffed up that lead my dog to think that biting me was the answer.

If we are talking about a puppy - is this a puppy that is biting because it hasn't been taught bite inhibition?

You also need to be aware that using confrontational methods to deal with aggression can lead to bigger problems. If the dog takes you up on the challenge, the biting can escalate. You are teaching the dog you only need to be bigger and stronger to win and that aggression is the way to gain control. When my youngest dog was around five months old, she would refuse to get off the lounge and would growl at me if I tried to move her. Someone told me to grab her by her scruff and growl in her face, so I did, and she took me up on the challenge and went from growling at me to actually biting me. That wasn't an isolated incident - it was a warning sign that something was amiss in our entire relationship. I sat down with a trainer and we worked out what was going wrong, I also taught her an off command, so she actually knew what I meant when I told her to get off the lounge. I never had a problem after that, because we didn't just address her growling but what led to it in the first place.

If we're talking about a serious dog attack - as in, a big adult dog attacking you because it's human aggressive and actually trying to maul and seriously injure you, I would do what I needed to do to survive and prevent injury to myself in that situation. Nothing you could do with the dog in that moment would fix it's aggression problems. But that is a very very rare situation.

[wolfmyth]

Someone told me to grab her by her scruff and growl in her face, so I did, and she took me up on the challenge and went from growling at me to actually biting me.

What did you do right after that? Any reaction/punishment?

That wasn't an isolated incident - it was a warning sign that something was amiss in our entire relationship. I sat down with a trainer and we worked out what was going wrong, I also taught her an off command, so she actually knew what I meant when I told her to get off the lounge. I never had a problem after that, because we didn't just address her growling but what led to it in the first place.

What was the cause if its not too personal ?

Questions inserted. I'm curious as I'm not sure what I would do if/when Akina bites me aggressively, though I don't think it will happen, she's so calm. I guess im too used too my old dog (when I was a kid, poodle) that would bite when really annoyed or touched in the wrong place ( ears).

[Bec]

To be honest I was shocked and a little scared my sweet little puppy would escalate to that level of aggression so quickly. I didn't really do anything - she ended up getting off the lounge and I pretty much immediately wrote an email to my dog trainer explaining in detail what had happened.

There were a few problems - this was a dog I needed to provide pretty strict boundaries and rules with. Some dogs don't need it as much as others. She needed a better outlet for her drive, she needed more mental exercise, more training, more leadership. It's important to note that leadership isn't about being rough or super dominant but providing clear and concise rules and boundaries, teaching your dog to look to you for guidance etc. She also needed to learn that obeying me was rewarding not something that was a battle of wills.

This was four years ago and now we have a pretty good relationship