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Staceybob

The Alpha Roll-Over Debate

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The Alpha Roll-Over.

alpha-roll-dog.jpg

Some people believe the Alpha Roll Over to be a necessity. People believe that wolves flip one another onto their backs and hold them by their neck/pin them in order to display a level of dominance. However, footage has also recorded that wolves roll over to their alpha as a sign of respect, they do not need force because they respect you.

In homes today, some people are being taught that the Alpha Roll Over should be done, for example, if your puppy isn't listening to you, you should grab them and force them to roll over in order to display your leadership. Some people full on flip a dog, and in some cases have been bitten from trying to copy this Alpha Rollover effect.

So this thread is to try and see what people think of the Alpha Rollover.

Do you think the Alpha Rollover should be a submissive act of respect, as shown below:

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Or do you think people should be taught to do this:

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It seems harmless when she uses it on that puppy, but I've seen people full on picking up a dog and almost body slamming it to the floor.

And another question:

Does your dog submissively show you respect?

Just wondering.

I currently don't know how I feel about the Alpha Roll Over, so I'm trying to learn as much as I can about it and use other peoples opinions.

Stacey xxx

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never needed to roll my dogs - they respect me without the need for it - tho blaze likes to push his luck lol

Just like his sister lol XD.

I've never needed to roll Aleu either, but I'm just looking to see what peoples opinion is on dominance techniques.

Stacey xxx

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Well I don't believe in throwing a dog to the floor its cruel. I would never force my dog to the door but I understand about putting fingers on the neck but not to the point it would hurt the dog and I would never do it to aggresive dog as its the dog right to bite. I think doing to a dog that bites when it plays isn't going to hurt them or you just show your in charge put not my forcing it to the floor. Ice does it to my lot if they go for him he will push them to the ground and pin them to the floor then they submitt to him is he been cruel no he being the boss and putting them in their place. Its a real debate as some say its cruel and others say you need to show who in charge if a dog is aggresive I don't think anyone should try it. A dog is the best animal to put another dog in it place but sometimes this can't be done. How is the best way to make a dog understand who in charge.

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Well I don't believe in throwing a dog to the floor its cruel. I would never force my dog to the door but I understand about putting fingers on the neck but not to the point it would hurt the dog and I would never do it to aggresive dog as its the dog right to bite.

Do you mean like Cesar Millans "Shhhh" Technique or "Cesar's Touch" Technique?

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Good post +1

Stacey xxx

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Im on the fence about this question, as I have known people that

did this and saw some improvement in thir dogs behaviors, but I

myself do not use it. Scaring a dog into listening to you when they

have done nothing to warrant such an extrme act, can simply

make them scared and overly submissive to the point they will just

run from you when you come anywhere near them. i couldnt bear

to see mine run from me. I think the whole point of training a dog is

not only to show them what you need them to do but to also encourage

them to build a relationship with you. You cant expect them to want to

be close to you and watch for instruction, if they are afraid...

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I used something very similar on Akina about twice when she was ~ 2months. She would play with the other dog and she thought it was ok when going past to also play bite my ankles. The second she did that I stopped her, put her down on her side and held her neck gently to the floor for about 30s till she calmed down. Only time I've done it and it worked well. She behaves pretty much all the time otherwise.

Edit: I don't see what I did as cruel, it's more like teaching them boundaries of what they can and can't do in a manner they understand.

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I might get my head shot off for this but here we go...

At work I have control of sometimes up to 60 dogs. Large dogs. Of all breeds. They are temperament tested before brining them into the group but this only really weeds out the totally aggressive ones. There are a few techniques I use in order to maintain control of such a large group of dogs. To date I have NEVER had a serious dog fight (going on about 3 years now.) A little argument here and there but never a dog fight (If someone is bitten in the process, I consider that a serious fight.)

We have an outside yard at work. This is where most fights will take place. I patrol the fence line and make every dog move out of my way. I told ask or physically move them, I just keep walking into them and they get it. I can walk the whole fence with the dogs lined up at it and they will move for me, no questions asked. If a dog gets too wound up he goes on a lead and must follow me around with the lead on without pulling or causing a problem, once they are calm and will sit where ever I am for a few minutes I let them off. Generally when I have a dog who's seriously acting up I can approach him (sort of like the woman in the first video, but I won't bend down like that) giving them a glare and my "regular" dogs will submit like that and normally will stop whatever they were doing. Some of the younger dogs takes a couple times before they "get it." They all must keep calm and quiet when people are walking in our yard as well as when people come through on tours. They respect me, they really do.

And now for the big one. We are getting new dogs in everyday and I have a pretty good eye for body language and other "silent communication" so generally I can spot a problem before it actually becomes a problem. I've had a few of the more nasty dogs come in (who appeared friendly at their temperament test) who have given serious danger signals to other dogs and i'll be the first one to tell you i've gone over there and rolled them. One of 2 things normally happen: the dog with either struggle with me and try to bite me but then relax within moments and slowly wag their tail or they will really thrash and fight and continue to thrash and fight. The dogs who thrash and fight are put into kennels once they have relaxed and I won't bring them into the group again. I do not do this with an aggressive mean attitude. It's calm and assertive. (I swear the ONLY things i've ever picked up from C. Milian and it's the best way to control a group of dogs) Would I recommend anyone to ever do this? No. Have I been bitten? Actually, No. I'm not hurting the dog at all. I've seen some people (at dog parks and other kennels) who are really nasty about it to the point where i've had to say something because the way they are executing it is pretty much dangerous for the dog.

I'm not a nasty person or a forceful trainer but with such a large group of dogs and peoples blatant dishonesty about their dogs behavior/social experiences... I need to be able to take charge and protect my dogs.

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It's a busy major kennel. Dogs are cageless all day long.

Never seen one like that before XD.

Well it's nice to see another perspective on the alpha roll over.

Stacey xxx

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Also, want to add afew other ideas to the thread as I believe

there is usually another way to assert yourslf to show a dog

that you mean business.

I have now had Oakley what 3 months? He still tries every single

morning to argue that he will not sit for his food, but the arguements

have actually gotten shorter and he has begun to sit exactly where i

ask him to, and this is because I have always asserted myself in

every situation that involves him and the others.

All it takes is patiencs and dedication to showing them that they

cannot just force you to do as they want. I have set my routine and

picked how everything is to work. when doing the morning meals,

they are required to be sitting down away from the area whre i place

the dishes, if not I wait, and I have no problem backing them silently

away from the areas.

The best advice I can give for being the alpha, is to never change your

routines or expectations for your dogs, they will respond.

I do think that in some cases where a dog is showing very pronounced

signs of aggression that it could be a tactic to use to ensure that they do

not think they can control the group, however I have in my experience,

espcially in the last 8 weeks of my biz, that if you are truly watching you will

be able to figure out why there is aggression happening and you may very

well be able to stop it by other less dramatic means. I have only to enter

a room, walk ito the middle of the group (with obvious purpose) and/or turn

in place and look directly at the dog who is acting out, and they turn and find

something else to do.

In most cases with dogs that are loved and cared for you can devise alternate

means of correction.

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what we did with storm in go onto our knees and hands at her level, then ut our necks over her's which is a wolf thing as well...

Another one we tried is when she is lying down on her side, go onto your knees again sitting upright and slowly place both your hands over the dog, and lower your neck over either the chest, belly or neck, worked for us but we never got bitten.

storm got quite distressed but we got up quickly for her, it's used for a quick " i'm boss" technique. She is a very very very dominate girl and does need putting in her place (which she's finally worked out. Bottom.) but we found they work really quite good!

(DOES NOT cause the dog any harm at all, perfectly fine and done when she is relaxed)

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I have never tried to get my dogs to do this, but when Cesar does something wrong I say his name in a certain tone of voice, and he'll lay down on the floor and give me his belly. Zoey only does thisas well, but only for Andrew, or she'll go belly up if she doesn't want to do something, like go to bed :P But Blaze and Kyrian do it all the time to Zoey and Cesar, but Cesar especially. They will run up to him and flop on the floor with their bellies up and their paws on their face. I find it funny because Cesar just looks at them like "wtf?"

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That certainly sounds like a friendlier and more gentle approach to the alpha roll Matt.

Taylor: sounds like you've got some awesome respect going on there XD

Stacey xxx

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if darwin snaps at us or does something really bad we give him a look and stand over him......he rolls over and stretches his head back to expose his neck..

i would never force a dog to the floor, especially one who is behaving aggressively!!!

i dont like the alpha roll technique but thats not for me to say that it couldnt be useful to someone in a situation

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do it to the wrong dog and your gunna loose a hand

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all 3 of mine will do it when i am playing with them and i will playfully then bite their necks....

also when they have done wrong the will also do it ...and they know daddy's voice is different .. soon as they do it though i will stop telling them off .. as i feel they know they have done wrong so why take it any further.. but its been rare that i have had to tell them off.

only time i would ever use force is if it was to break up a fight... but luckily have never had that problem and hopefully never will...

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never had the reason to consider it but i guess it would need to be done carefully or a serious injury could occur. throwing a dog down is not the right way to treat a dog.

mine show respect - submissive posture with ears back etc.

when storm is a bit full on we do use ceasar's technique - usually when he stressing/anxcious about food being around. but we minimise problems by them being in their beds at meal times and out of the kitchen when cooking etc.

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obviously i should imagine there will be a time when would be necessary however i think that in your average household - one should never have to do this i don't feel.

I think people have seen CM do this on tv and associate behaviours shown on TV with that of their dog and go and try it out themselves.

I hope I never have to do this to any of my dogs, they trust me totally and show this by their relaxed attitude around me - i'd hate to change that

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I have used it occasionally, but usually when a dog is being disrespectful, and doesn't respond appropriately to a verbal warning. It's most likely to occur when I'm letting groups of dogs out or I'm feeding. There are several of my males that are down the line from my starting point who believe that they ought to be taken care of sooner, because of their high opinions of themselves! While I don't like them to make a lot of noise while they're waiting, I tolerate it as long as it's not excessive, and then will tell them to be quiet, and that's usually sufficient while waiting to go out. My main problem behavior that I won't tolerate is jumping at the gate when I'm trying to open it - gate in face isn't fun! They know the gate isn't opened until they're off, and if I tell them to sit and wait, they won't get out until they do, but occasionally try to push out or talk back, anyway. When this happens, I'll make them stay in while I come in, and use Ceasar's fingers on the neck technique and make them submit that way. Once they're down and calm, I'll let them up, and then they can go out to play, but not until!

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I am VERY against it... Firstly as you said in your opening, an Alpha in a wolf pack VERY rarely has to touch another wolf, it is usually the lower members trying to bully other memebers around that do the roll so it is actually totally incorrectly named, it should be called the dominance roll... a true alpha is alpha because the other wolves LET it be alpha not because its faught its way there physically... the research that this "behaviour" came from is actually of captive wolves so not true wild packs.

Secondly DOGS ARE NOT WOLVES!!! They should not be treated as if they are, they are evolved from wolves but the key word there is evolved they are so far away from being wolves now they actually share very few behavioural traites with wolves anymore. They live totally differently and are born and raised completely by us as humans.

Thirdly respect and submission are two totally different things, I am mum to my dogs, I am boss and they respect that.. not because I act dominant and force them to submit to me but because I have trained them that way. I have taught them manners and patients, they do as I ask because of the relationship I have built with them through that training. I would HATE my dogs to be all submissive and grovelly it doesnt suit them and it doesnt suit me, I want them to be comfortable in their home and around me and do as I ask becuase they trust me. I really dont beleive you can have that if you physically force your dogs into things.

Obvioulsy on occasion it is nessesary to physically handle them but the better you are as a trainer and a leader the less you should actually NEED to do that.

Thats my opinion on the subject anyways! Hope that has added something useful to the thread. :)

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storm got quite distressed but we got up quickly for her, it's used for a quick " i'm boss" technique. She is a very very very dominate girl and does need putting in her place (which she's finally worked out. Bottom.) but we found they work really quite good!

(DOES NOT cause the dog any harm at all, perfectly fine and done when she is relaxed)

But you just said above that she got quite distressed?

When I think of a submissive dog, I think of a dog who averts it's gaze and won't meet my eyes, who slinks around with his head down, tail tucked, urinates in submission. NONE of those behaviours are ever anything I want to see in my dogs. I want my dogs to be excited and confident to respond to my commands. I like my dogs to work with me with a good attitude - that means head up, eyes watching mine, tail up and wagging, entire body 'up' and buzzing with excitement. Submissive is not something I ever desire to see in my dogs. I honestly don't understand why people think that having a dog that respects you must mean your dog must be submissive.

I don't like the alpha roll and it is a total myth in wolf packs anyway - an alpha wolf doesn't need to force lower pack members to submit, they approach him and do it of their own free will while he stands over them. If you have to force your dog to the ground in order to get it to respect you, you are doing something wrong in your day to day handling of your dog. Physically forcing your dog into a submissive position only teaches it that you are a bully and that using force is the way to get what you want. I prefer not to teach my dogs that being bigger and stronger is the way to win, because I what happens if I can't physically over power them? You can't FORCE a dog to respect you.

Alpha roll the wrong dog and you WILL get your face bitten off.

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