Sid_Wolf Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I understand where you're coming from, I wouldnt do it either, I personally dont see a need for them, but Im not aiming for a high level of obedience, I just like them to be fairly good most of the time thats enough for me Not long now hun, and he will be back with you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich & Kody Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Its still long enough but cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Rich - have you ever used an e-collar before? I was totally against them and didn't understand them at all until I learnt how to use them and now IMO they are one of the least aversive methods/tools out there when they are used properly. When I put the collar on myself I could't actually feel the level the dog was working on. It is less than the feeling of a static shock, it is less than the sensation of a vibration. It is so subtle, there is no way we can possibly compare it to hitting our dogs or being directly confrontational with them. Anyone who knows me knows I rarely ever use physical corrections on my dogs but that is one reason why I like e-collar traiing (I have not used e-collars on my dogs, btw). The stim is less than the correction you'd give with a leash, on a correctional collar, even with your voice in a lot of instances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich & Kody Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 About a year ago i went to the US to visit my mum, She had one of these collars that she used on her GSD. Both my brother and i put it on and hit the button. I can say that although I didnt think it was very painful, It was uncomfortable, And i wasnt happy to have it on 1 second longer. Its not something i will do again, or even consider applying to an animal that cant express the discomfort it feels. In my mind i treat my dog the way i would my child. Some people want their dogs subservient to them. I on the other hand prefer a mutual respect. Kody can be cheeky and disobediant. But to me that is a Husky. I chose a husky becuase of their nature, their character and their desire to work. If i wanted an off lead dog or a subservient dog, I wouldnt have taken a Husky. His behavior wont endanger him, as i never have him off lead any more, unless its secure. I do this because even if i had drilled into him that if he does not come back he will be shocked, and one day he sees something that makes him foregt that and bolt, then proceeds to be flattened by a car i simply couldnt live with myself. Why even take the risk with a breed that is known to makes its own choices when it wants. People have their own methods and ideologies and that is entirly their choice. I try to avoid these threads as i know my ideologies will conflict with others. Regreting posting already now. I love my companion, And i'll do anything in my power to ensure he is safe. The best way outside the house for me, is on a lead. unless in a secure park, and even then I am cautious. Best Regards Rich & Kody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich & Kody Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Sorry no idea what happened to the above post. Seems to mess up when i Edited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSNS Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 is this really still going on lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Rich - have you ever desexed, microchipped or vaccinated your dog? So you are happy for your dog not to have a decent recall - what if he got off leash by accident? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arooroomom Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Guys stop. Bec, not everyone wants their Husky off lead and I think it's extremely rude to be pushing this issue. You've said yourself that even you haven't used an E collar on your own dogs. This is why these topics can't ever be open for too long because no one wants to agree to disagree. If you want your Husky to be off lead, fine. That's your risk. If someone doesn't want their Husky off lead, fine. That's their risk if it runs off. I don't think it's right to constantly be trying to prove to everyone Huskies can be fine off lead because there are more people than just us reading these forums. If someone who doesn't really know what they're doing reads this and tries to make an off lead Husky and then it's hurt/killed/run away.... That's one too many for me and for all of us. Can we just drop this because regardless of how many times you guys say they can be off lead there's going to be just as many people (if not more) saying they can't. There will never be a consensus on this. We have to agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich & Kody Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 I've not desexed Kody yet, due to Quarantine, but hes booked in for the 18th April. I would be very suprised if he managed to get off lead as he has a harness that goes over his chest, paws, and back, double looped onto the lead. His recall was vey good before he went into quarantine. I have no idea wht he would be like now. hence the reason i wont let him off lead again, unless its secured. I started teaching him the recall from 16 weeks. And it worked a charm for us. I had the luxury of a farm with an owner that loved the breed. So i Had use of his fields (he didnt keep livestock) I know not everyone has this. Thats why i was saying I dont condone it. But at the end of the day its your choice. But I didnt shock him into coming back. I perservered with the method I had chosen. There are more humanin ways to teach your dog. This breed has been around for hundreds of years. Before the invention of such devices. People managed then and they should be able to manage now, in my opinion. (key word there. My opinion) Like I have said before. I use the same methods I use when teaching students in Computing. If they are not understanding, Its not their fault. Its Mine. Im teaching it/doing it wrong. Like i said before, if you let them off lead and your confident then all the best to you. But you never know what you have until its gone. I was naive in thinking that Kody was perfect off lead. Thinking back I was lucky nothing ever happened. Though i believe i chose the right environment for him to be off lead. I cant stop anyone from doing anything to their dog. Its your choice as the owner. All i can do is offer my opinion. Sorry ive irritated you. I just dont belive in inflicting discomfort to create subservience. You may have a different opinion and I wont lambast you for that. However I may question it, which is what i thought forums like these were for, to offer options and opposite thoughts. Regards Rich & Kody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Bec I have recall on Kira (not grey yet), but dont let them off except in the dog park. I've never touched a shock collar in my life. I usually agree with you, but what you said above sounded like you doubt any of us has trained a recall, when in fact, we may well have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Guys stop. Bec, not everyone wants their Husky off lead and I think it's extremely rude to be pushing this issue. You've said yourself that even you haven't used an E collar on your own dogs. This is why these topics can't ever be open for too long because no one wants to agree to disagree. If you want your Husky to be off lead, fine. That's your risk. If someone doesn't want their Husky off lead, fine. That's their risk if it runs off. I don't think it's right to constantly be trying to prove to everyone Huskies can be fine off lead because there are more people than just us reading these forums. If someone who doesn't really know what they're doing reads this and tries to make an off lead Husky and then it's hurt/killed/run away.... That's one too many for me and for all of us. Can we just drop this because regardless of how many times you guys say they can be off lead there's going to be just as many people (if not more) saying they can't. There will never be a consensus on this. We have to agree to disagree. I'm not trying to push it. I don't care if other people let their Sibe off leash or not. I DO think everyone should attempt to train a good recall no matter what dog you have but I am by no means saying that everyone should let their dog off leash or that we should all train that recall by using an e-collar. I am just responding to Rich's misconceptions about the tool. I've not desexed Kody yet, due to Quarantine, but hes booked in for the 18th April. But I'm assuming you have microchipped or vacinated him, right? I would be very suprised if he managed to get off lead as he has a harness that goes over his chest, paws, and back, double looped onto the lead. His recall was vey good before he went into quarantine. I have no idea wht he would be like now. hence the reason i wont let him off lead again, unless its secured. I started teaching him the recall from 16 weeks. And it worked a charm for us. I had the luxury of a farm with an owner that loved the breed. So i Had use of his fields (he didnt keep livestock) I know not everyone has this. Thats why i was saying I dont condone it. But at the end of the day its your choice. I never ever let my Sibe off leash when he was young. I was way too terrified that he wouldn't come back when I called him. I had the most secure fencing imaginable, I always had him on a leash etc. However, over the years: - We've had people leave our gates open - I've had his collar break on me - twice - I've had his leash snap I even watched him run into on coming traffic and almost get hit by a car. It was after these incidents that I realised it is DAMN terrifying to have your dog get off leash and I would work as hard as possibly to train a reliable recall. But I didnt shock him into coming back. I perservered with the method I had chosen. There are more humanin ways to teach your dog. Perhaps you should reserve your opinion until you actually learn how the tool is used. I find it highly offensive you are accusing anyone who uses or condones the use of an e-collar as inhumane. Feel free to check out my youtube channel (link below) come back and tell me if you think my dogs look unhappy to work or that I look like the kind of handler who would EVER condone inhumane training methods. Sorry ive irritated you. I just dont belive in inflicting discomfort to create subservience. You may have a different opinion and I wont lambast you for that. However I may question it, which is what i thought forums like these were for, to offer options and opposite thoughts. Like I said above. Have a look at my dogs working and then tell me that I am some kind of maniacal control freak who treats my dogs in an inhumane manner. Considering that you believe in never inflicting discomfort on your dogs, I can assume you never vaccinate them; remove rewards from them; restrain them on a leash or harness; give them a time out; give them a voice correction or any other act your dog finds aversive? IMO it is impossible to say we never do anything to our dogs that they don't find unpleasant. My relationship with my dogs is based on mutual respect. They can't wait to work for me, they are so happy and eager to work whenever I bring them out. Anyone who sees them working cannot deny how happy they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Bec I have recall on Kira (not grey yet), but dont let them off except in the dog park. I've never touched a shock collar in my life. I usually agree with you, but what you said above sounded like you doubt any of us has trained a recall, when in fact, we may well have. That's not what I'm trying to imply at all? Sorry if it came across that way. I was responding to Rich's post that basically said he doesn't mind that his husky is disobedient because that's just the way the breed is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid_Wolf Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 I read that part of rich's post to mean the general stubborness and cheekiness, i.e well gimme a good reason why I should sit. Rather than just using the breed as an excuse for not training recall. Especially as in the same post he says he has worked on recall since he was a puppy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich & Kody Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Sorry Bec if you feel my opinions are offensive, But at the end of the day i dont agree with applying electric shocks to a dog to teach it something. I never said your dogs are unhappy. I never said they were mistreated. I simply stated my opinion that i believe there are other methods to achive the same results. Am i not entitled to my own opinion? You dont see me quoting every single word you have said that is disagree with. I'm happy to have a conversation, but by the tones of your posts you are telling me i have raised Kody badly. Prior to him going into Quarantine he could be 3 / 400 meters away in the forest and i would simply shout Kody come here. Seconds later hes at my feet. Did I need a shock collar? nope. Choke / Prong collar nope. All i did was work with him each day since a pup with the exact same words "Kody come here". I'm sorry you have taken such offence to my opinions, I'll ensure not to reply to threads you are involved in, seeing as I'm such an inexperiance owner. Oh and yes Kody is fully vacinated and chipped. And while it was being done I made sure he was completely distracted, and he never made a peep, Just as you would your Child. Im sorry our beliefs differ so much. I cannot change who I am, and to be honest i wouldnt want to. This is the last I am going to post on the subject, as its no longer a discussion, its turned into a slagging match. if you want to continue discussing, feel free to start a personal conversation with me, I'm always happy to talk about these things. Sorry to the OP for a thread hijack, I never intended to do this. best regards Rich & Kody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCouture Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 I think this needs to be closed. Everyone is entitled to their own opionion and if you don't agree with it then walk away! Don't need to slam them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff&Duke Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 The stim should be given before you give the command. If you are using a prick that is only half a second long, how will the dog learn to turn it off? It will likely take the dog more than half a second to respond to the command especially in the initial training stages. If you just keep hitting the prick style button then that is going to be more confusing for the dog IMO because the stim is turning on/off/on/off etc. Google Lou Castles and have a read of his e-collar training articles, he explains it far better than I do. Still disagree - If you stim your dog before you give the command you're letting your dog become "minding the collar" not the most important aspect of training... your VOICE. I gurantee you that when that collar comes off the dog pssshhh good luck in listening to you. Your setting your dog up to be "Collar-Wise." Now my dog without the collar or with the collar its the same behavior I say "Duke Come" he comes period. Dogs life's are black and white things needs to be taught in black and white and very easy to learn. By stimming the dog before the command they're not learning what needs to be done except "Something is touching me I need to go to my master." They won't know what that "Come" command is at all, period. However telling them the command "Come" and then if they do not listen then equates to "NOOO" (negative tone) < stim > Command (still stimming with the prick) once they move towards you they will come and you stop (hence them turning off the stim completely by listening to your voice and using postive marking. Think of it as the dog thinks that the owner is patting it on the back "NO" < pat pat pat > then command you'll get that dog to listen to your VOICE COMMAND. What you're or "Lous Castles" is trianing is ESCAPE TRAINING with e-collar. IMO, this is ass backwards on what you really want to do, and in some cases will negate the bond between handler and dog. Compare to spanking a child, and teaching them that you will stop spanking when they do what's told no offense but thats IMO not the correct way to teach ESPCIALLY recall command to a already stubborn, willful Siberian Husky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Sorry Bec if you feel my opinions are offensive, But at the end of the day i dont agree with applying electric shocks to a dog to teach it something. I never said your dogs are unhappy. I never said they were mistreated. I simply stated my opinion that i believe there are other methods to achive the same results. Am i not entitled to my own opinion? You dont see me quoting every single word you have said that is disagree with. I'm happy to have a conversation, but by the tones of your posts you are telling me i have raised Kody badly. Prior to him going into Quarantine he could be 3 / 400 meters away in the forest and i would simply shout Kody come here. Seconds later hes at my feet. Did I need a shock collar? nope. Choke / Prong collar nope. All i did was work with him each day since a pup with the exact same words "Kody come here". I'm sorry you have taken such offence to my opinions, I'll ensure not to reply to threads you are involved in, seeing as I'm such an inexperiance owner. Oh and yes Kody is fully vacinated and chipped. And while it was being done I made sure he was completely distracted, and he never made a peep, Just as you would your Child. Im sorry our beliefs differ so much. I cannot change who I am, and to be honest i wouldnt want to. This is the last I am going to post on the subject, as its no longer a discussion, its turned into a slagging match. if you want to continue discussing, feel free to start a personal conversation with me, I'm always happy to talk about these things. Sorry to the OP for a thread hijack, I never intended to do this. best regards Rich & Kody I am not in any way inferring you have raised your dog badly, but it is disgustingly unfair of you to say anyone who has used methods you clearly do not understand are being inhumane. You are entitled to your opinion but there is a difference between saying 'no thanks its not for me' and going on about how anyone who uses an e-collar is shocking their dog into submission, is treating it inhumanely etc when it is clear you have no idea how modern e-collar training works. Microchipping and vaccinating a dog causes FAIR more pain than the stim from an e-collar. What else are you trying to imply when you say anyone who condones or uses these methods are inhumane? Still disagree - If you stim your dog before you give the command you're letting your dog become "minding the collar" not the most important aspect of training... your VOICE. I gurantee you that when that collar comes off the dog pssshhh good luck in listening to you. Your setting your dog up to be "Collar-Wise." Now my dog without the collar or with the collar its the same behavior I say "Duke Come" he comes period. Dogs life's are black and white things needs to be taught in black and white and very easy to learn. By stimming the dog before the command they're not learning what needs to be done except "Something is touching me I need to go to my master." They won't know what that "Come" command is at all, period. However telling them the command "Come" and then if they do not listen then equates to "NOOO" (negative tone) < stim > Command (still stimming with the prick) once they move towards you they will come and you stop (hence them turning off the stim completely by listening to your voice and using postive marking. Think of it as the dog thinks that the owner is patting it on the back "NO" < pat pat pat > then command you'll get that dog to listen to your VOICE COMMAND. What you're or "Lous Castles" is trianing is ESCAPE TRAINING with e-collar. IMO, this is ass backwards on what you really want to do, and in some cases will negate the bond between handler and dog. Compare to spanking a child, and teaching them that you will stop spanking when they do what's told no offense but thats IMO not the correct way to teach ESPCIALLY recall command to a already stubborn, willful Siberian Husky. Jeff, I don't want to take this thread further off topic so feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this any further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staceybob Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Technically it is inhumane because dogs don't use them in the wild, but you could say that about anything ='D Becs with regards to the pain from vaccinating etc, they are kind of essentials in order to keep your dog healthy and microchipping is en essential incase a recall method doesnt work. Microchipping happens once in their life. It's painful which is sad, but it's not like its used again and again like an E-collar can be in the wrong hands or just on a stubborn dog. Some people will shock, others wont, but all I'll say is that no matter what, shock or not, nothing is guaranteed to work on your dog, and everyone should be prepared in case of the worst. Stacey xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 is it painful tho? (the chipping n vaccs i mean) - none of my 3 flinched at all when being vaccs'ed n blaze never even batted an eyelid when he was chipped (the others were done b4 we got them so i cant say the same for them) ETA: the injections skyla had from when she was attacked didnt bother her either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich & Kody Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Same with Kody. Thought i now have to get it done with Dakota, not looking forward to this, suspect she will scream the roof down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 but then again sibes are known for being dramatic arent they - Me n Skyla were waiting for a bus the other day n she screamed her head off lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich & Kody Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 haha ture, Kody didnt do it so much but Dakota is a right mouthy lil madam. If she wants some thing, she will bark constantly until you acknowledge her Shes getting better but still a right drama queen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staceybob Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Lol the microchipping is because it's got to go through muscle tissue (that's why they use such a large needle). Aleu was fine with her vaccine but yelped when having her microchip done - But two years on, I dont think shes bothered about that microchip now XD Stacey xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 shadow didnt flinch at either the jabs or microchip he was to interested in the tasty treats in my hand lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyboi36 Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 So obviously, what you have heard is true. These aren't off lead dogs. Don't become angry or frustrated... it's a known breed trait. Now that doesn't mean you shouldn't teach the dog to recall. ALL dogs need to be taught a recall. Buy a long lead and dedicate yourself to practicing the recall daily. There are a few members here who trust their dogs off lead. As much as they may feel they are in control of their drive... I would never put my dogs life at risk. They are born and bred to run and that's what they'll do. I COMPLETLY DISSAGREE iv had my boi since he was 12 weeks and at about 15 weeks i could take him out for walks, almost immeditly i let him off the lead and he loves it ,how you can say there not off the lead dogs i do not know , its how you train them if you keep them on there lead there hole life then take them off they will run because they suddenly got that freedom if they have that freedom at a young age i dont think there non the wisser , iv had my hard time with him off the lead but now at 9 months he is a pleasur to walk with he now listens to me the hole time off the walk comes bak when i say even wen he chases birds ect i can whilstle and he will stop running and look behind at me , the one thing i hav not craked is when he see's his doggy pals he does like to play and sometimes will play with them for along time without listnen to me but he is gettin better so hopfully soon that shouldnt be a issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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