KC AND ELECTRIC COLLARS!!! who uses one here?

[Ice and Cripton]

http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2007/June2007/News080607/shock.htm

couldn't copy and paste for some weird reason, but the link above is about the kc trying to ban the use of e-collars or shock collars, what do we think of them? does anyone use them here and why> or do you know anyone who uses them and why?

and

if you dont use them...why?

personally i wouldn't use them on my two as have no reason to, however i know there not just for red-zone cases, in training classes there is a boxer who has one in our feild training because he doesn't come back and will get nasty wiht other dogs, i think it's true to some extend a dog should obey because they want to, i know sibes have an awful reputatipon for recall but alaska is great;) she will always come back!!! when in the park but if i drop the lead on the road im screwed for some reason??? lol but i would never put one on alaska for that!! ...so why do people use them?

[Bec]

I've never needed to use them on my dogs but I have no problem with their use IF used correctly and under the guidance of an experienced behaviourist. It is also important to use a good quality collar and not a dodgey cheap one.

I know many people who use them properly, that is, they use them on a low stim for various training exercises. I have seen them demonstrated on dogs and the dogs were not fearful or in pain and you couldn't even tell it was being stimmed!

I had one on my arm at a training seminar and didn't feel anything until it was on level 15! and even then it felt like a vibration. If I was a dog, that would be the working level used for training - it is used on a low level to basically get the dog's attention when it fails to comply with a known command. You use the lowest level perceivable to the dog to gain excellent results in training - there are many reasons why people use e-collars, and they are used around the world by police departments, SAR groups, assistance dog groups and so on.

It would be really unfortunate if they were banned in the UK, they have their place in training and are not the cruel, evil torture devices some people think they are. They do not electrocute the dog, at most you use a level akin to a static shock. Modern e-collars are very different to the shock collars of old, and do not burn the dog, make it fear the handler and any other myths commonly associated with e-collar training.

Like any tool, it is each to their own, I thought e-collars were cruel until I learned how they work and how they are used in modern training. They are not something to try without guidance from an experienced trainer, so you can understand how best to use it effectively to gain the best results. But IMO they are a great tool when used properly

[siberian_wolf]

Moved this to Husky questions for you

I do not use shock collars on mine mainly due to previous bad experience of a guy putting one on my old JRT and using it full strength on them!

I dont have a problem with others who use them providing they use it at an appropriate strength and use it accordingly and not just for the hell of it! However, I used to 100% against these until I learned a bit more about them.

If I was going to a correctional collar for my boys I would probably go to a trainer first for advise and tuition as to which would be best. In a way I can see why they would want to ban them completely as there alot of people out there who get them but dont use them correctly. I think that these type of collars should only be used when and where necessary by a dog trainer or behaviourist and should not be freely available to everyone! I feel the same about the other correctional collars, such as the spray collars.

[Bec]

Just to clarify - I didn't want to comment directly on the article because it made me quite infuriated... I hate the positive vs negative training arguments, as they never make room for balanced training.

The article assumed that everyone who uses e-collars uses them on a high stim level and uses them to create a high level of pain in the dog - not just a misuse of the tool but abuse. It also says that people who use e-collars use them instead of rewarding their dogs or teaching them the desired behaviour which is also a gross misrepresentation - I don't know any trainer or owner who uses e-collars without using positive reinforcement as well or who uses them to teach their dogs a command.

No matter what correction or aversive you use (even a voice correction) you should never correct a dog as a way of teaching it a command, corrections should only ever be used when the dog fails to comply with a known command. It's not fair to correct the dog for a command it has yet to learn or when it doesn't understand what you are asking of it.

[Bec]

If I was going to a correctional collar for my boys I would probably go to a trainer first for advise and tuition as to which would be best. In a way I can see why they would want to ban them completely as there alot of people out there who get them but dont use them correctly. I think that these type of collars should only be used when and where necessary by a dog trainer or behaviourist and should not be freely available to everyone! I feel the same about the other correctional collars, such as the spray collars.

Definitely SW - some states here have restricted the use of e-collars and you cannot use one without consulting a vet or trainer first. I don't think it's terribly well policed but a good idea in principle.

Any training tool - head collars, check chains, no pull harnesses etc - can be used incorrectly to the detriment of the dog. Misuse has nothing to do with the tool itself (ever seen a prong collar jump off the table and correct a dog? LOL ) but the person using it. Hence why I think it is important to learn how to use a tool from someone experienced to understand how best to use it before putting it on your dog. They should never be used in replacement of actual training, but as part of a training program.

[Bec]

Here's an interesting video for anyone who is interested in learning a bit more about e-collar training.

This is a video where a trainer is finding the working level (that is the lowest level perceivable to the dog) on an e-collar. This is what I did when I had the e-collar on my arm and a friend was pushing the stim button, going through each level until I could feel a slight vibrating sensation. For a dog, the sensation is generally akin to a flea bite.

[ame]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1718526843747129672[/ame]

Note the body language of the dog, he's not stressed, in pain or fearful of the trainer. If it wasn't for the trainer's commentary, most people would not even realise when the dog's working level on the e-collar has been found because the reaction is so slight.

ETA: For some reason the video doesn't look like it is working. Here is the link:

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1718526843747129672

[Anne]

I would never use an eletric collar on mine ,the name says it all for me ,sorry just my opinion.I would say the person who uses it on her boxer because it wont come back and gets nasty with other dogs should keep the dog on a leash and teach proper recall they are not teaching the dog anything new just giving it a shock :confused13: and is misusing the collar >>thats just one reason Im against them they can be bought by anyone and misused .

[Sqwidge]

I so far haven't had to use one, and most likely will not have to in the future. I don't have a problem with people who use them correctly either. I saw the dog whisperer using one to help prevent dogs going near snakes, took about 10 minutes for the dog to 'get' it...3 weeks later, without the collar on the dog still remembered not to go near a snake...in that instance totally useful and probably the only way you would get results that quickly and effectively.

[Bec]

I would never use an eletric collar on mine ,the name says it all for me ,sorry just my opinion.I would say the person who uses it on her boxer because it wont come back and gets nasty with other dogs should keep the dog on a leash and teach proper recall they are not teaching the dog anything new just giving it a shock :confused13: and is misusing the collar >>thats just one reason Im against them they can be bought by anyone and misused .

Being a Sibe owner though, we all know how hard it can be to proof a recall.

The command itself is not hard to teach, my dogs have always learned what come means pretty quickly. It is getting them to comply in distracting environments that is the challenge.

E-collar training is not about teaching the dog a command. I know many people who have used e-collars to proof recall, sometimes they have been working dogs who are stock chasers. Other times, they are working dogs who need to have 100% reliability (like police service dogs) and the e-collar gives the handler a chance to correct the dog for failing to comply to a known command at a great distance. And yes, they are often used by pet owners for various reasons, too.

I have no problem if people decide e-collars are not for them, you should never use a tool you aren't comfortable with. But I am happy to talk about how they can be used correctly, as I don't want people to have the wrong idea about how they are used

[Sqwidge]

from what i understand about them the 'shock' is like a tens machine that people use for theraputic use, and or during labour...i used one during labour and it wasn't like it was the worst pain in the world, it was a tingling...

i think unless you have been shown one, felt the strength and spoken to a behaviourist who uses one, you can't really comment on whether you will or won't use one or it's the most evil thing in the world because you just don't know.

Of course, they can get in the wrong hands, but like Bec has said, a prong collar, or halti, or anti pull harness, or choke chain etc can all be misused.

[Anne]

Yes ,being a sibe owner we all know how hard it is to proof a recall ,thats why they are kept on -leash Kira s recall is great:p Tia s is rubbish but Id rather keep trying with Tia than put a shock collar on her ,not that she is ever off leash but you never know when recall comes in handy .

As I said its only my opinion ,Iv no problem with them being used under supervision or by behaviourists who know what they are doing ,but Iv seen owners who have misused the collar ,they havnt taught recall and get frustrated with the dog when it dosnt come back for them and use it for that purpose and beleive me the shock it gave the dog was by no means like a tens machine

[Bec]

Oh definitely Anne, it's awful to see any tool misused and it can really put you off.

A friend of mine went to a puppy school when her two beagles were about 10 weeks old, the trainer put a check chain on one of the puppies and pulled it up off the ground by the leash to 'show it whose boss' --- :eek: absolutely disgusting that people like this can teach others how to handle dogs.

I've seen people who have head collars on their dogs yank the leash like it was a correctional collar, it made me feel physically sick, knowing how much it hurt the dog and that it could have caused serious neck damage. The poor dog looked very distressed.

At the other end of the scale, I took Daisy to a puppy school when she was 10 weeks old and it was run by a DELTA trainer who referred to herself as 'purely positive'.

She made us tie our puppies to our chairs on a leash less than a meter long, for the entire class, they had to sit on a mat and be quiet and if they weren't quiet (classes ran for more than an hour!!) she would feed them pig ear after pig ear to keep them 'calm'. Of course to many puppies this is like giving a kid red cordial, and the pups would be bouncing off the walls by the end of the class. She also told us you can't say 'no' or 'ah ah' to your puppies - I asked her what I was supposed to do when Daisy jumped on the coffee table and ate off my dinner plate? She couldn't answer, LOL! It was the worst puppy school I had ever been to, we learned nothing and Daisy was always hyper by the end of it. She made us feel like bad owners because we couldn't "control" her when she was just being a normal puppy.

There are some horrid dog trainers out there, and they can really put you off certain methods or tools because of their inability to use them properly themselves.

[Sqwidge]

like i said i have never seen one in the flesh, or felt it...just going by what i have heard.

Those are some awful stores Bec...and Anne...just goes to show that any training 'tool' can be misused.

[siberian_wolf]

very true Sarah!

[Bec]

Sqwidge, if you watch the video on the first page it shows you a dog's reaction to an e-collar stim.

The collar I have used on my arm had more than 100 levels, but I first felt the stim on level 15, as a dog that would be my 'working level' and you wouldn't actually stim much higher than that. At most it feels like static shock, the purpose of modern e-collar training is not to evoke pain in the dog but to get it's attention, like we do with leash or voice corrections.

[Sqwidge]

ah i see, so the ones who are obviously misusing it have it on like 100?

What's the point in having something go that high in the first place? Suppose its like why does a toaster have a setting that burns the bread?

[Ice and Cripton]

Here's an interesting video for anyone who is interested in learning a bit more about e-collar training.

This is a video where a trainer is finding the working level (that is the lowest level perceivable to the dog) on an e-collar. This is what I did when I had the e-collar on my arm and a friend was pushing the stim button, going through each level until I could feel a slight vibrating sensation. For a dog, the sensation is generally akin to a flea bite.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1718526843747129672

Note the body language of the dog, he's not stressed, in pain or fearful of the trainer. If it wasn't for the trainer's commentary, most people would not even realise when the dog's working level on the e-collar has been found because the reaction is so slight.

ETA: For some reason the video doesn't look like it is working. Here is the link:

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1718526843747129672

Being a Sibe owner though, we all know how hard it can be to proof a recall.

The command itself is not hard to teach, my dogs have always learned what come means pretty quickly. It is getting them to comply in distracting environments that is the challenge.

E-collar training is not about teaching the dog a command. I know many people who have used e-collars to proof recall, sometimes they have been working dogs who are stock chasers. Other times, they are working dogs who need to have 100% reliability (like police service dogs) and the e-collar gives the handler a chance to correct the dog for failing to comply to a known command at a great distance. And yes, they are often used by pet owners for various reasons, too.

I have no problem if people decide e-collars are not for them, you should never use a tool you aren't comfortable with. But I am happy to talk about how they can be used correctly, as I don't want people to have the wrong idea about how they are used

Thanks smeagle, great video, and couldn't agree with you more...added to rep

[Ice and Cripton]

Oh definitely Anne, it's awful to see any tool misused and it can really put you off.

A friend of mine went to a puppy school when her two beagles were about 10 weeks old, the trainer put a check chain on one of the puppies and pulled it up off the ground by the leash to 'show it whose boss' --- :eek: absolutely disgusting that people like this can teach others how to handle dogs.

I've seen people who have head collars on their dogs yank the leash like it was a correctional collar, it made me feel physically sick, knowing how much it hurt the dog and that it could have caused serious neck damage. The poor dog looked very distressed.

At the other end of the scale, I took Daisy to a puppy school when she was 10 weeks old and it was run by a DELTA trainer who referred to herself as 'purely positive'.

She made us tie our puppies to our chairs on a leash less than a meter long, for the entire class, they had to sit on a mat and be quiet and if they weren't quiet (classes ran for more than an hour!!) she would feed them pig ear after pig ear to keep them 'calm'. Of course to many puppies this is like giving a kid red cordial, and the pups would be bouncing off the walls by the end of the class. She also told us you can't say 'no' or 'ah ah' to your puppies - I asked her what I was supposed to do when Daisy jumped on the coffee table and ate off my dinner plate? She couldn't answer, LOL! It was the worst puppy school I had ever been to, we learned nothing and Daisy was always hyper by the end of it. She made us feel like bad owners because we couldn't "control" her when she was just being a normal puppy.

There are some horrid dog trainers out there, and they can really put you off certain methods or tools because of their inability to use them properly themselves.

LOL thay class sounds like a joke!! i actually go to a really good trainer here in London, he uses e-collars and pinch collars, he doesn't agree with halti's >> he said they can actually do your dog long term damage if used incorrectly, whereas a small pinch wont do any long term damage to the spine. i have felt an e-collar on my harm once and it feels more like a vibration than a shock:confused: << plus my trainer doesn't give them out like cany, he'll moniter each situation and decide << he has worked with dogs his whole life and knows which breeds would benifit from training tools.

alaska is great off-lead about 80% of the time, but now she's a teen she's getting worse, but im working on it, and would rather use an e-collar when i have worked my butt of training her with little success, but my trainer doesn't think she needs one, she's not like most sibes in the recall depo lol, she will come sprinting towards you and then she'll sprint off again, plus she always looks for to know your not to far behind, and that article was some what annoying >> assuming everyone is just being lazy not wanting to train their dogs so they give them painful shocks >> and their not painful IF used properly...just wanted to know what the general school of thought was on the matter;)

[Phil W]

The first "invisible" fence I had was a combination of IF and training collar. I found out pretty quick that all that did was confuse Lexie and Rustie (the 2 that I had at the time). I then went to just containment collars. You wouldn't believe the negative comments I have heard about the IF. "Why do you want to electrocute your dog?", or, "They are soooooo cruel!!!!", and my personal favorite, "the IF killed my Aunt's dog!". These comments seem to be made by idiots who have never had any dealings with this type of fence. And I can't count how many times the aunt's dog has died! The best way to describe how it feels is it's like a static shock that you can get when you touch something in the winter. We have also been informed by a woman who runs a rescue in central NC that "they will absolutely not work on a Husky PERIOD!!!!!". Of course the fact that of the 21 Huskies I have or had 19 had no problem with it (one was behind a regular fence prior to moving here and on the other it has worked but we just can't trust her), didn't matter to this dumb bimbo (basically "don't confuse me with the facts"). It normally takes about a week or two to take them out off lead under supervision and a month to train well enough to go out unsupervised. We won't knowingly leave them out when we leave the house though that has happened.

I prefer positive training anyway though it doesn't always work. Lexie and Rustie went through obedience school which I found was a waste of both time and money. Between the three of us (obedience school is more to teach the human anyway), we didn't learn anything that we didn't already know.

A friend of mine went to a puppy school when her two beagles were about 10 weeks old, the trainer put a check chain on one of the puppies and pulled it up off the ground by the leash to 'show it whose boss' --- absolutely disgusting that people like this can teach others how to handle dogs

Had that incident happened in front of me I would have left the class with a full refund and reported the "instructor" for animal cruelty. If it was to one of my kids the instructor would have had to have my boot surgically removed from their a** as it would have been so far up there it would have been tickling their nose. There is no excuse for that kind of treatment.

[Bec]

ah i see, so the ones who are obviously misusing it have it on like 100?

What's the point in having something go that high in the first place? Suppose its like why does a toaster have a setting that burns the bread?

Not entirely sure to be honest - it is one of the best quality e-collars on the market (and it's not cheap either).

There are other ones that only to go level 15, a working level is commonly around level 3 or 4. My trainer has done demos with e-collars and when taking a workshop has in the past put it on his arm and asked anyone who wants to ask him a question, to press the stim button for the e-collar. He reckons there is always some joker who stims him on level 15 and they are always surprised when he doesn't react - even level 15 isn't that severe.

Phil, it wasn't my friend's puppy that the trainer did that too (it was another puppy in the class) but they were so disgusted they asked for a refund as they didn't want to attend any more classes. The trainer was a real bully and tried to get them to stay or walk away without their money. I think she tried to report him (was a couple of years ago now) but because there was no visible physical damage done to the puppy and it wasn't her dog there wasn't much she could do.

[Phil W]

Phil, it wasn't my friend's puppy that the trainer did that too (it was another puppy in the class) but they were so disgusted they asked for a refund as they didn't want to attend any more classes. The trainer was a real bully and tried to get them to stay or walk away without their money. I think she tried to report him (was a couple of years ago now) but because there was no visible physical damage done to the puppy and it wasn't her dog there wasn't much she could do.

What can I say? This so called trainer is actually an :asshole2: . Like I said there is no excuse for that kind of behavior.:mad: As you say, no damage etc so the authorities won't get involved in a case like this. I know laws vary from place to place at least here we can swear out a warrant charging animal cruelty ourselves.

I would have hoped that everyone in the class would have demanded refunds and walked out.

[Ice and Cripton]

What can I say? This so called trainer is actually an :asshole2: . Like I said there is no excuse for that kind of behavior.:mad: As you say, no damage etc so the authorities won't get involved in a case like this. I know laws vary from place to place at least here we can swear out a warrant charging animal cruelty ourselves.

I would have hoped that everyone in the class would have demanded refunds and walked out.

lol, i would have reported him to animal cruelty, demanded a refund and at least given him a kick up the backside :beerchug:

[Sarah]

lol, i would have reported him to animal cruelty, demanded a refund and at least given him a kick up the backside :beerchug:

lol..... me too!!!!!!

[siberian_wolf]

lol, i would have reported him to animal cruelty, demanded a refund and at least given him a kick up the backside :beerchug:

I agree