siberian_wolf Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 as mentioned in a previous thread I thought I should pop this on here for some advice. This morning when I was walking Gizmo I was stopped by a lady with her dog (mixed breed, looked like a lab mix but not 100% sure). I think I may have done wrong by holding Gizmo back, which I usually do otherwise he will lunge towards other dogs which always worries me about other dogs attaking him. It may have been my fault, but when Gizmo met the other dog he growled. Could he have been growling at me as if to say "it will be ok, let me say hello" or would he actually be growling at the other dog? Im worried that he may becoming aggressive, and if he is I need to find out now so I can start working with him and get in touch with a behaviourist before the meet up in May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 hey sorry i cnt help not had this problem wit my 2 sorry hope sum1 can help tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 what was his body language like? When kimba comes across another dog he bounces and tries to get to them but is always happy when he does this.......you obviously know your babes better than anyone, did his ears go back tail down?? I think you did the right thing holding him back, i don't let mine go to another dog unless I say so as they say - mother knows best lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 His ears are upright and tail is curled right over his back, so I dont think its a fearful response. He did it again today towards a JRT. It only seems to be at a few dogs its not all the time. I going to search for a behaviourist and see if I can get them to have a look and if he is being aggressive, which I think he is, then I can book more sessions to sort it out before the meet up as I dont want to have to put a muzzle on Gizmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingBlaze n Skyla Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 im sure hes just playing let us no how it all goes tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted March 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 yeah will keep you all updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice and Cripton Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 It's funny you say this because alaska has been doing the same thing!! >>not with all dogs but about a good 40% of dogs, her tail will go up but stay still and her hackles will go up, she started growling and then she went for another husky the other day and balto was behind her >> so because she couldn't get to the other husky she bit balto:eek::eek: << what a bitch lol but the past few days i have been saying g-e-n-t-l-e .... realy slowly and giving her a little tug on the lead and she has been fine >>> she is on her first heat cycle so i think it's just making her moody:confused: But i think your situation is different, i think he is picking up on your fear/concern that the other dog may attack him, so maybe he is protecting you and him in a weird way...hmmm... it's like when alaska was 3 months i came across this massive rotti (who was as gentle as a lamb with her) and i had this feeling he may attack >>> i was actually thinking as he sniffed her: "OMG his head is triple of alaskas, he could just take one bite and she would be gone" <<< and as i thought this alaska made this histerical noise like she was being attacked and she was terrified.........just try and calm down, and although you dont want a dog fight, just know im sure your boy can defend himself if he needed....but i doubt there would be any fight!! but you never know, a trainer might help if the problem persist......but just remeber..be calm lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 I agree with Ice, he may be picking up on YOUR fears hence the response he gives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex T Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Just picking up on a point made by Ice and Cripton - are these other dogs bitches? Could be that they are in season and he is eager to "play". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 His ears are upright and tail is curled right over his back, so I dont think its a fearful response. He did it again today towards a JRT. It only seems to be at a few dogs its not all the time. I going to search for a behaviourist and see if I can get them to have a look and if he is being aggressive, which I think he is, then I can book more sessions to sort it out before the meet up as I dont want to have to put a muzzle on Gizmo This is sounds like dominant body language. Obviously it is hard to comment on it without seeing him, but he sounds like he can be quite 'rude' in doggy language. It is not polite for a dog to rush at another one, you commonly hear people excusing their dogs over the top behaviour by saying "he just wants to say hi!" I've lost count of how many over the top bossy dogs I've been told are just being friendly, but are really being rude and pushy. In reality, a dog that lunges at another or gets in their face is rude and often being dominating towards the other dog - this can illicit a negative response in the dog they are 'saying hi' to. I think their behaviour can definitely be harder to manage when we feel anxious or worried as they pick up on it, but I don't think that is the reason for his behaviour. I don't let my dogs greet other dogs unless they are calm and behaving themselves. When we are on a walk, Daisy is never allowed to greet another dog unless I allow her to - not all dogs appreciate other dogs in their space so I never assume a dog we walk by wants a beagle sniffing their butt! If I let her 'say hello' she has to be sitting calmly, and paying attention to me. If she is too excited or completely focused on the other dog, we walk on. She has to learn that I control the walk, not her - and that she doesn't expect that every dog we encounter is one that she can engage with. I think doing a bit of focus work with Gizmo will help you feel more confident in handling him, I would be working on getting his attention on you when there are other dogs around so you feel more in control and he learns to look at you for permission to play. If you see him exhibiting this behaviour when he spots another dog (i.e. tail curled up, waving slowly side to side, ears erect, pilars/hackles up, staring the other dog in the eyes etc) give him a quick pop on the leash and walk in the opposite direction. Give him the 'leave it' command and get him to focus on you. Timing is really important, you want to move away from the other dog and get him focusing on you (i.e. give the look or heel command etc) before he starts lunging or really growling. Don't let him interact with any dog unless he is being 'polite' and calm. It doesn't sound like his behaviour is too bad so I'm sure with the right time and training you can over come it in no time :grinning-smiley-003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Susan Clothier's article "He Just Wants to Say Hi" is a great article for understanding various cues and body language that our dogs have around others. I can't paste and copy it (due to the terms and conditions on her website) but you can read it here: http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/42/97/ You may need to register on the site first (it's free and takes about 30 seconds) but it's very worthwhile, it is a fantastic and very insightful article (fun and easy to read too). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted March 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Thanks Smeagle, can't add to rep so will give you a smiley instead Will make a start on that and see how it goes. I never see his tail 'wag' side to side when he does go like this it just stays dead still (alomost like its frozen there). Will take a look at the article in a bit aswell Thanks again [ATTACH]996.IPB[/ATTACH] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Thanks Smeagle, can't add to rep so will give you a smiley instead Will make a start on that and see how it goes. I never see his tail 'wag' side to side when he does go like this it just stays dead still (alomost like its frozen there). Does he hold it up quite high? There are two signs of 'dominant' body language that we can see in a dog's tail, the tail is up and wagging very slowly and slightly side to side, and the tail is just up and erect. It doesn't sound like serious aggression to me, SW, although like I said it's hard to tell without seeing him. You're doing a really good thing by trying to sort it out now, as it is definitely a behaviour that will get worse the longer he is allowed to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted March 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 He holds his tail like it is in this photo but more curled. Ive always called it dominant and rude behaviour he show, thats mainly why I hold him back as my mums dog show similar behaviour but alot more aggressive than what Gizmo shows. I dont think it's extremely aggressive either as he doesn't show any teeth either, when he does growl its a low pitched, deep growl if that helps. I will try and get a short clip if I can but may be difficult as its not very fair on the other person if you know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 There are definitely varying degrees (and types) of aggression. I am lucky because Micha's is not that severe, so with some work I have been able to get him to progress quite far and I can introduce new dogs if it is done slowly. It sounds like Gizmo just needs to be taught some manners when it comes to interacting with other dogs, and if you meet with a behaviourist who is experienced in aggression they will be able to give you pointers on what cues to look for and the best way to manage his behaviour towards other dogs. Is he always the one to initiate play with other dogs, or does he behave like this when another dog runs up to him? The tricky thing about aggression is that once a dog learns it is a way they can 'win' and the behaviour becomes a habit, it can be hard to teach them otherwise. Aggression can be rewarding to dogs because the adrenalin that rushes through their body when they spot the trigger (the other dog) releases endorphins in their brain and teaches them that aggression = chemical reward. Hence why it is always helpful to learn to read their behaviour so you can prevent it, and cut them off before they have a chance to aggress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted March 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Thanks smeagle It seems to be mostly when the other dog is also trying to lunge towards him. This is where I am getting confused as it seems he is protecting himself from being attacked but also 'challenging' the other dog. I am going to call a few behaviourists, hopefully, on monday for prices and ask if they have had worked with sibes before (always a vital point), etc Shall let you know how it goes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Thanks smeagle It seems to be mostly when the other dog is also trying to lunge towards him. This is where I am getting confused as it seems he is protecting himself from being attacked but also 'challenging' the other dog. I am going to call a few behaviourists, hopefully, on monday for prices and ask if they have had worked with sibes before (always a vital point), etc Shall let you know how it goes If you have a read of the Susan Clothier article it will give you a good idea of what goes through the dog's mind and how they view various situations - it might well be that he has in the past felt intimidated by more exuberant/rude dogs that get in his face, and now feels like he needs to 'get in first'. Or it could be dominant behaviour that he has learned from other dogs. Wish I knew someone in the UK I could recommend for you! I did find this though, might be worth a look to see if they can recommend someone in your area? http://www.ukrcb.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted March 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Thanks again smeagle, still cant add to rep another smiley coming your way. Great links aswell may be an idea to pop the one you just gave in the World Wide Web section as it is very handy I will let you do this as you found it and deserve the credit [ATTACH]998.IPB[/ATTACH] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Awww thanks SW! Just trying to be of assistance I have no idea if they are any good or not, but it looks like a good place to start. Especially as it is a group of behaviourists and not a franchise where you have no idea on the quality of the trainer you get - anyone can buy a franchise and complete what is normally a 2-4 week course to become one of their "trainers". I had a read of some of the articles on their website and they sound like they know what they are talking about, they lean towards positive training and didn't completely blast negative reinforcement/positive punishment which is good because you want to have a trainer who is experienced in all aspects of dog training and takes a balanced approach when it comes to the methods they use. I always worry about trainers who lean completely to the extreme (i.e. 100% purely positive training or 100% correction based training) as it shows they have a limited scope. No two dogs are the same and you want a trainer who doesn't restrict themselves to one style of training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted March 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 There is one in Southampton which is closest to me so will contact them and see if I can get some more information about her work and possibley book an appointment with her if she seems to know what she is doing Its mostly just trainers in Dorset but will also look for some behaviourists in dorset who seem to be good as that would be moer ideal as would save on travelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 There is one in Southampton which is closest to me so will contact them and see if I can get some more information about her work and possibley book an appointment with her if she seems to know what she is doing Its mostly just trainers in Dorset but will also look for some behaviourists in dorset who seem to be good as that would be moer ideal as would save on travelling. It is hard to generalise when it comes to dog training, but you will find most trainers are skilled at teaching your dog things (i.e. the people who teach at my obedience club) whereas behaviourists are generally qualified and skilled at fixing behaviourial issues. The behaviourist in Southampton might even be able to recommend someone closer to home, so definitely contact her and give her a go! Unfortunately finding a dog trainer or behaviourist is not something where quality can easily be measured, the fee they charge is rarely an indicator of their skill or quality, and qualifications are not always a guarantee either - I have met some dodgey qualified trainers that's for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted March 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 What you recommend that I ask them? I know I would prefer to go with someone who has had experience with Sibes. I should be going back home later today to walk them as we are going out tonight so will probably see more dogs aswell. I will take a closer look at Gizmo's reaction to different dogs and try and notice what they do (as in either lunging towards him, maybe they are snarling at him, etc) and will update you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 What you recommend that I ask them? I know I would prefer to go with someone who has had experience with Sibes. Have PM'd you, SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siberian_wolf Posted March 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Have PM'd you, SW Recieved it just after posting, lol Thanks, links are really helpful Will keep you updated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 no worries, good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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