Husky wont 'Come'

[Bec]

Bec, Im really interested to know more on how you trained emergency recall.. I also believe every dog should have this as a back up.

I trained emergency recall with my girl from day 1.. I whistled through my teeth a specific whistle and then rewarded and praised when she came ever time, did this over and over and over both in the house and out on a long lead in the park till I thought it was ingrained.. it worked every time till one day she got out of my mums garden through a hole in the fence behind the shed that we hadnt noticed, I whistled my arse off and she just totally ignored it. I was very lucky my sister can run like a cheater or I think I would have lost her that day.

So with that in mind what else could I possibley do?

Hey Sarah

Unfortunately there is no simple answer to your question, at least, not one that's easily given over the net (I find these things much easier to explain in person). One thing to remember is that a lot of the way we are taught to handle our dogs is about rewarding for calmness. Think about when you have your dog at obedience school, and reward them for sitting nicely next to you. You are rewarding for calm behaviour, which is all well and good, until the dog becomes aroused and goes into what is referred to as 'drive' - that moment their brain switches gear into the lower cortex of their brain, the medulla, responsible for instinct. You will see this when your dog spots a prey item like a rabbit running across the field, it's that split second when you can see the gears changing just before they make the decision to run after it. When we spend a lot of time rewarding for calmness, we don't spend a lot of time teaching our dogs to think through arousal or that we are a better source of drive satisfaction than chasing the rabbit. It's not surprise then that our dogs will come reliably when they are in a calm state, but the moment their brain switches gears they are off and ignore commands they usually comply with.

My dog is reliable because I train her to work in a highly aroused state, I also put her in situations where she actively makes a decision between going off and playing with another dog; or tracking a scent; or chasing a prey item (I will often proof stays by putting her in a stay and waving a tug on the ground in front of her) and focusing on and working with me. Every time she makes the decision to blow those things off in favour of complying with my commands, my commands get stronger and the habit of responding to them becomes more ingrained. When we are training I actually won't reward her for sitting nicely or being calm, I only reward when she is giving 110% and is really revved up and can barely contain herself. She actually will not notice the things going on around us, because she is so focused and full of adrenaline. Not sure that any of that makes sense, and it's definitely not the how to you were after, but it can be a rather complex subject (and one I am not particularly great at articulating).

[Bec]

I guess if you can accept that SPCA's worldwide are disreputable, unethical and uninformed - to use your terminology - then you could accept just about anything. Personally, I don't buy it.

When they are successfully sued for defamation because they are uninformed and were spreading grossly untrue 'facts' about a training tool they clearly don't understand then what more is there to 'accept'? They were sued, the e-collar manufacturers won, which proved in a court of law that where this subject is concerned they don't know what they are talking about.

Nothing I've read from any RSPCA or related organisation worldwide on the subject has ever discussed the downfalls of the tool when used properly. Sure it can be misused or abused but so can any tool. What benefit is there in banning a tool because when used incorrectly it may cause harm? Following that logic, we should ban any tool including flat collars, some of the worse injuries I've seen on a dog have been from misuse/abuse of a flat collar. In reality, e-collars are one of the most gentle, least aversive tools out there, it is a shame that is often missed by scare mongering and misinformation.

[raindog]

I guess if you can accept that SPCA's worldwide are disreputable, unethical and uninformed - to use your terminology - then you could accept just about anything. Personally, I don't buy it.

I don't know anything about other countries' SPCAs, but the English RSPCA is the absolute pits - a useless organisation only interested in making money and politicking. If I shook hands with one of the RSPCA's top officials I would be very careful to count my fingers afterwards.

Mick

[Macdog]

Sure it can be misused or abused but so can any tool. What benefit is there in banning a tool because when used incorrectly it may cause harm? Following that logic, we should ban any tool including flat collars, some of the worse injuries I've seen on a dog have been from misuse/abuse of a flat collar. In reality, e-collars are one of the most gentle, least aversive tools out there, it is a shame that is often missed by scare mongering and misinformation.

I think we have to be very careful with appeals to logic. Let's remove both opinion and emotion and look at the cold logic.

For the sake of argument, let's posit that shock collars can have training benefits if used according to the manufacturer's explicit instructions. But we also have to admit that they can be grossly abused by John Q. Public when not used according to the manufacturer's instructions. Similarly, pistols, when used responsibly, can lead to hours of recreational fun on the target range and perhaps a shot (forgive my pun) at Olympic gold. But we must also admit that pistols, when irresponsibly or criminally used, can result in great pain and sorrow.

In each case, society has to weigh the benefits against the harms and act accordingly. In the case of pistols, most jurisdictions (outside the US) either ban them or impose costly regulatory frameworks. In the case of shock collars, society has to weigh the perceived benefits against the perceived harms. This is what Wales presumably did when they banned shock collars. This is also what Victoria presumably did when they banned prong collars, but that is for another day.

So remember - benefits vs. harms. Politically, you'd have to demonstrate some near-magical benefits to outweigh the colour photos of dogs with the skin burned off their necks.

The fact that the Australian RSPCA got out-gunned in court by a well-funded industry lobby who used the law as a club in a defamation suit really settles nothing. I doubt if it will force the RSPCA there or indeed anywhere to "shut up" about shock collars. They will probably, though, be a little more street-smart.

[Bec]

I think we have to be very careful with appeals to logic. Let's remove both opinion and emotion and look at the cold logic.

For the sake of argument, let's posit that shock collars can have training benefits if used according to the manufacturer's explicit instructions. But we also have to admit that they can be grossly abused by John Q. Public when not used according to the manufacturer's instructions. Similarly, pistols, when used responsibly, can lead to hours of recreational fun on the target range and perhaps a shot (forgive my pun) at Olympic gold. But we must also admit that pistols, when irresponsibly or criminally used, can result in great pain and sorrow.

In each case, society has to weigh the benefits against the harms and act accordingly. In the case of pistols, most jurisdictions (outside the US) either ban them or impose costly regulatory frameworks. In the case of shock collars, society has to weigh the perceived benefits against the perceived harms. This is what Wales presumably did when they banned shock collars. This is also what Victoria presumably did when they banned prong collars, but that is for another day.

So remember - benefits vs. harms. Politically, you'd have to demonstrate some near-magical benefits to outweigh the colour photos of dogs with the skin burned off their necks.

Your last sentence just proves that you don't have much knowledge or experience with e-collar training. I really don't get why people judge a tool or method without understanding it. I like to be as objective as possible when I learn about any method or tool, I went in with reservations about e-collar training but I changed my mind when I learned how it is used properly.

I've seen a few of those photos and I am yet to see one that is caused from burns from the collar. So far, all the ones I have seen have been caused when the collar has been left on too tightly for too long and that kind of injury happens when the same thing occurs with a flat collar or check chain.

Aside from that, considering any tool can be used to cause harm, how do you prove that the majority of people who use e-collars use them to abuse their dogs? How do you prove that the potential for harm, is greater than it is with tools like check chains which are readily available from most local supermarkets and come with no instructions on how to use them properly? Following your logic, motor vehicles have a great potential to cause harm and the statistics prove they do yet we haven't banned cars yet.

On a side note, I'd be happy to see the sale of e-collars and most training tools restricted so you couldn't just walk in and buy them without any instruction on how to use them properly. At least e-collars aren't as readily available as tools like head collars and check chains which both have the potential to cause harm when used incorrectly.

Have you used an e-collar before, Macdog? The last time I put an e-collar on my arm, the dog who it was used on was working on a level that I couldn't even feel. That's because modern e-collar training is about working the dog on the lowest perceivable level. Nothing magic about that, but it does provide amazing results

You know, Victoria is the only place in the world that has banned prong collars. You sure do have a lot of faith in the government to make a fair, unbiased and factual decision. That was a political move that was not based on any scientific evidence or facts at all. But don't get me started

The fact that the Australian RSPCA got out-gunned in court by a well-funded industry lobby who used the law as a club in a defamation suit really settles nothing. I doubt if it will force the RSPCA there or indeed anywhere to "shut up" about shock collars. They will probably, though, be a little more street-smart.

LOL. They weren't out-gunned, they were sued for defamation and even after two years failed to provide any evidence that the proper use of an e-collar can cause the issues they said it does. In this case the RSPCA was hardly the little guy. You are right that I doubt it will "shut them up" but hey, what a win for the company that had to put up with their slanderous and outright untrue allegations.

Even regardless of the e-collar issue, like Mick, the RSPCA is not an organisation that will get my support now or in the future.

[Macdog]

Your fall back to juvenile ad hominem attacks, inflammatory language and unsupported assertions saddens me.

If you were to calm down and reflect upon what I have said, you might be less inclined to shout me down.

[Bec]

Macdog, I have no interest in attacking you but if you want to have a discussion on this topic you will need to be more objective rather than relying on emotional and factless points. E-collars do not burn dogs. Anyone who has used an ecollar would know that is blatantly untrue.

[KSNS]

there is a lot to read here always good to have a healthy debate.

not sure how they work to a fine detail but i know the basics of them. end of the day it comes down to preference it doesn't need to get personal lot of valid points. It's down to the owners choice end of the day. My choice would be rigorous training with out them and if i was lucky enough to have a dog who does recall some dont some do training wont change how some dogs are and neither will shock collars.

I have a dog who is amazing off lead and recall i have another 2 who are crap yet they are all trained the same.

Sakri = good off lead

Nukka+Kodi= crap off lead

[Bec]

Totally agree with you Keath it is definitely personal preference, however as some posters have said in this thread they do use them it's not really fair for others to post things about them that are misinformed or untrue and imply that anyone who uses them are inflicting pain on their dogs or burning their dogs necks.

I know many people who have use ecollars to get their dogs recall that much more reliable, now their dogs can enjoy freedom they couldn't previously. I wont judge their use of the tool as long as it's used properly

Anyway I did not come back to the forum to post on this topic, training a recall is way more interesting

[princessmom]

Out of 10, with one being the lowest value and ten being most exciting thing ever, where do you think she rates playing with other dogs?

10, absolutely. She loves to run and dig and do training but playing with other dogs is the absolute best thing ever!

[Bec]

10' date=' absolutely. She loves to run and dig and do training but playing with other dogs is the absolute best thing ever![/quote']

cool thanks!

So out of ten what value do you think she has for you?

[Macdog]

Macdog, I have no interest in attacking you but if you want to have a discussion on this topic you will need to be more objective rather than relying on emotional and factless points. E-collars do not burn dogs. Anyone who has used an ecollar would know that is blatantly untrue.

Forget about dog collars for a minute.

Please read again what I said about societies and the balance of potential good vs potential harm.

It doesn't really matter to society if a tool causes no harm if used properly. What matters to society is the harm it causes if used improperly or criminally.

Shovels have great value to society. And they have negligible potential harm if used improperly. So societies don't ban or regulate shovels.

Dynamite also has great value to society. But the potential harms could be catastrophic if dynamite were to be used improperly or criminally. So societies regulate the sale and use of dynamite to mitigate these harms.

Automobiles have great value to society if used properly by trained drivers. But, as you point out, they can be fatally dangerous. So society, rather than banning automobiles, does everything reasonably possible to ensure drivers are trained and to make roads and automobiles safer.

Now, can you see where I'm going with this?

How does it apply to shock collars? On a societal level, how does the utility of shock collars when properly used in dog training stack up against the potential harm to dogs if the shock collars are used irresponsibly or stupidly? (And they will be.) This is the question the legislators in Wales had to consider. It's the same question we all have to consider.

Can you see what I'm saying? Please tell me you get it.

[Joey.Zarly]

My pups have been let off the lead since they where babies, they are nearly 10 months of age and still are off lead, at the beach, parks, schools, near other dogs, kids etc and they ALWAYS come back!

I am not worried at all! But i am also not silly about it, t kept it consistent and i have no problem.

[Bec]

How does it apply to shock collars? On a societal level, how does the utility of shock collars when properly used in dog training stack up against the potential harm to dogs if the shock collars are used irresponsibly or stupidly? (And they will be.) This is the question the legislators in Wales had to consider. It's the same question we all have to consider.

Can you see what I'm saying? Please tell me you get it.

I got you the first time which is why I asked - how do you measure how much harm is caused by e-collars vs how many are used appropriately? Why ban the tool when it is the person using it who decides wether to use it properly or use it to abuse their dog? Why ban e-collars, but not other tools that can be misused and cause harm like check chains or head collars? If someone wants to abuse their dog they will do it regardless of the tool they are using. If the vast majority of people who use the tool use it correctly, why ban it for the small percent who use it incorrectly?

Your point about the reason we don't ban motor vehicles is valid - because we provide as much education and training on how to use them safely as possible. I would love to see the same thing happen with training tools (not just e-collars) - restrict their use so that you can only use and purchase one through qualified trainers who will teach you how to use it properly. That way the thousands of dogs who benefit from e-collar training won't suffer because there are no other alternatives.

[Macdog]

Why ban the tool when it is the person using it who decides wether to use it properly or use it to abuse their dog? ...If the vast majority of people who use the tool use it correctly, why ban it for the small percent who use it incorrectly?

Why ban dynamite when it is the person using it who decides wether to use it properly or use it to blow up safes? ...If the vast majority of people who use dynamite use it correctly, why ban it for the small percent who use it incorrectly?

[Bec]

Why ban dynamite when it is the person using it who decides wether to use it properly or use it to blow up safes? ...If the vast majority of people who use dynamite use it correctly, why ban it for the small percent who use it incorrectly?

Just how much damage do you think e-collars are capable of inflicting, Macdog? How are they any more dangerous than any other tool that people use to abuse their animals? How are they more capable of hurting a dog than a tool like a check chain that is far more readily available? The people who want to inflict pain on and abuse their dogs will do so regardless of the tool they have in their hands.

ALL tools need to be used properly and any tool used by the wrong person can be used to abuse a dog. I don't see any point in continuing this conversation unless you actually want to discuss the pros or cons of the tool - in which case you should really start another thread or PM me to carry this discussion out in private. This thread is about training recalls

[Macdog]

Just how much damage do you think e-collars are capable of inflicting, Macdog? How are they any more dangerous than any other tool that people use to abuse their animals? How are they more capable of hurting a dog than a tool like a check chain that is far more readily available? The people who want to inflict pain on and abuse their dogs will do so regardless of the tool they have in their hands.

Really Bec, I was drawing an analogy to your line of reasoning, not talking about the properties of dynamite.

I do whole-heartedly agree with you that regulation, as you say:" - restrict their use so that you can only use and purchase one through qualified trainers who will teach you how to use it properly" would be a step in the right direction. Regulators, however, would have to first define the term "qualified trainers". At present it appears that anybody can call themselves a dog trainer as there are no industry or regulatory standards. (I wish I was wrong on this and there were, but that's another discussion.) That said, you would have to have some kind of licensing scheme for the collars and the trainers or you would have a rather toothless law. Fees to support the scheme would be inevitable.

[Joey.Zarly]

Does this have anything to do with getting a husky to come, collars.. seriously?

my two just go off and come when called, easy peasy! just like any other breed of dog, but that's how i treat them,.. like any other breed of dog, no special training nothing, they get the same training as any of my other dogs have gotten, works for me, works for them i have no problem handling, walking or training them, I am one happy owner!

[Bec]

Does this have anything to do with getting a husky to come, collars.. seriously?

It is a bit off topic however relevant for anyone who has used an ecollar to proof a recall

my two just go off and come when called, easy peasy! just like any other breed of dog, but that's how i treat them,.. like any other breed of dog, no special training nothing, they get the same training as any of my other dogs have gotten, works for me, works for them i have no problem handling, walking or training them, I am one happy owner!

Breed itself has Little to do with how I train too, however I can't say all my dogs are trained the same way. Each dog is different in terms of temperament, nerve and drive which has far more impact on how I train a dog than it's breed.

[Joey.Zarly]

Breed itself has Little to do with how I train too, however I can't say all my dogs are trained the same way. Each dog is different in terms of temperament, nerve and drive which has far more impact on how I train a dog than it's breed.

And that's your opinion and your way of training, Me myself.. I do it how i do it and it works, this is for friends and other peoples dogs i've trained (i love to help people out).

Their and I am happy, no complaints

[Denali33]

I have used an E-Collar on Denali now for 2 month's initially my friend recommended it, I was skeptical I am replying again because I just don't get it. I let Denali run off leash the first time and didn't have to use the E-COLLAR he came back every single time with a simple call command and a praise. I RARELY have to use the stim on my E-COLLAR now, it is an expensive 300$ from TriTronics if your gonna do it do it the right way, its a quality collar. I let him off leash now, and have been through the woods with me, and he comes back everytime and I don't even have to use the collar anymore. I just don't get it why people are so against off leash huskies, off leash he walks very close to me if there is a squirrel or anything I say NO and give him an audible buzz and he doesn't dare. I can make him sit 25 ft away from me and stay and come up to me, he ignores people and only goes up to them if I let him and let the owners know he is a friendly husky. I wish people would give this breed more credit, he likes using his brain, I make him fetch sticks, go swimming in the lake for sticks, make him sit, stay praise him and always talk to him. If I see him eyeeing a squirrel or another dog, a simple no and he carries on his way and am always saying good boy, he is so happy with the freedom he has. Once again folks call it what you like, cruel or inhumane but when I use it on a stim of 2.5 / 5 total, it is a tickle I used it on myself, and don't go off comparing well you don't know how a dog takes it, its a big thuck coat on him. It beats the hell out of him pulling on a leash or a harness and he can just do what he wants within reason, he respects me and knows his limits and I respect the hell out of my dog for following my commands, its a dog just like any other dog, sure it has different instincts but its workable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpdvvEyAAUI

[Bec]

And that's your opinion and your way of training, Me myself.. I do it how i do it and it works, this is for friends and other peoples dogs i've trained (i love to help people out).

Their and I am happy, no complaints

Sorry I didn't mean to say you were wrong, just that there is no one size fits all training method for all dogs which I am sure you agree with As dog trainers we need to look at the dog we have in front of us, and allow that to shape how we handle and train them i.e. we couldn't use food with every dog because some dogs won't work for food.

[KSNS]

surprised this one is still going lol i have much to read but doubt I will post again as it's quiet a commen topic hope you sort it original thread poster

[Joey.Zarly]

Sorry I didn't mean to say you were wrong, just that there is no one size fits all training method for all dogs which I am sure you agree with As dog trainers we need to look at the dog we have in front of us, and allow that to shape how we handle and train them i.e. we couldn't use food with every dog because some dogs won't work for food.

No, I agree that there is not 1 way of doing things, i didn't mean for my posts to come across this way!

I try to keep my method with all the dogs i train but not everything works, as said so i try my other 'ways' and they work!

Same with training horses! I've trained too many to remember (even though i am only young) and each horse was completely different.

[gunsworth]

I'll be chiming in here. I have been training Denali off leash for a little over a month now. I am not an expert by any means but these are my thoughts. About two months ago Denali slipped out of his collar and starting running I panicked and ran after him, then I stopped and called him and he came back to me, I was pretty upset. Fast forward I went with my friend on a golf course that's right in his backyard, he has a Doberman and a bulldog. He has e-collars on his dogs and swear by it, we put one on Denali and didn't even use it, he stayed close and had decent recall. I went ahead and purchased my own collar and have been utilizing it per the training manual. Denali is about 7 months now, I now can walk him off leash on my own in the golf course or in the back of a huge parking lot. I think it's a combination of a few things, the collar , him trusting me, I constantly praise him and treat him out there. I am making him retrieve sticks and balls, I don't know maybe he feels like he had a purpose or he likes working like that, but he has came into his own. If he sees another dog now he sits down on his own and doesn't even think of moving. I am comfortable and do not act nervous I'm sure if a squirrel ran out he would chase it, but he's a dog. When he runs with other dogs I can call him back granted it takes a few times he comes for me. Look I was very skeptical at first and thought it wasn't a good idea but I'm starting to build alot of trust into him and I think he is doing the same. Every time I call him he comes,back. Off leash he walks right next to me I constantly praise him, mentally I want him to know I'm the alpha I protect him , praise him and challenge his mind. Give your dogs a chance there a great breed and love learning about them.

Hes only 7 months, Mine was the same up to just after a year. prey drive/curiosity increases with age. right now you are the most important thing in his life, a few months from now you most likely wont be